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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: hummermania00]
    #7008533 - 06/04/07 06:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hummermania00 said:
If a belief does not make sense, so what? Has it hurt anyone anymore than the same twisted desecration of other humans that non-believers have imposed and executed? I think not.




You will most likely get the "holy war" smackdown for this part....  :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: hummermania00]
    #7008840 - 06/04/07 07:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The question of whether God exists in fact is immaterial.

This is why charlatans (PeterPopoff) who claim to read your mind through God and heal you with God's magic touch, and fake psychics (Sylvia Brown) who prey on grieving people when their loved ones go missing, and even Muslim terrorists all have a huge following of mindless drones who inexplicably accept as true things not in evidence because "whether or not they exists is immaterial". :shrug:

Has it hurt anyone

See above.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7008882 - 06/04/07 07:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:yesnod: :thumbup: The unknown drives it though, and an utter lack of true comprehension, or an apathy to attempt to achieve it. Can you really blame all those for attempting a comfortable easily explained and digested view of life and therefore a consonant form of happiness?

To be perfectly honest some part of me still wishes that i could believe in god.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: hummermania00]
    #7009124 - 06/04/07 08:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The non logical mind might sit around the fire wondering what happens to Grunt now? Will I ever see him again? Will he need his spear and flint where he is going? This can't be all there is to Grunt and existence.





Poor, poor Grunt. :dying: :cryariver:


--------------------


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7009208 - 06/04/07 08:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Nonsense. We ALWAYS communicate here using LOGIC-BASED devices. You travel in a LOGIC-BASED device. You eat food farmed using LOGIC-BASED methods. Your domicile was constructed using LOGIC-BASED devices and methods."

very general...please explain more by what you mean as 'logic based devices' If we are always basing our decisions on logic, then you have prove my point more so; that is, we are not all that different. However if this is not the case, then why is it that people can be 'illogical' then if we are always using logic-based devices?

"How can the logician be more certain that his views are correct? They work."

this is not true because there are many many times that our logic, however well research, end up being wrong. I stated this before, it has to deal with the fact that there was something else, some other piece of information that you do NOT know. And that's my point, you cannot know the inner workings of everything around us. However based on empirical evidence your ideas may be, they are by no means 100% correct. In this regard, YOU CANNOT SAY with 100% accuracy that ideas based on science are more true than a religious person's belief system.

"How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out."

And there is a system to many of these games that if, YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, then you can have better chances at winning.

"How can the logician be more certain that his view of the Cosmos is more correct? It is called 'history'. Every paranormal claim that can be tested has been tested and failed."

1) history has been distorted throughout time. even YOU should know that. people have invested interest in stake a lot of the time and history gets distorted. a person who bases his ideas as BETTER on something so VAST as the 'COSMOS' than a religious person is deluding him/herself. you, nor I, no anyone has any fucking clue. those who say 'my way is better, or more accurate is using the same frame of thinking that a 'believer' has.

And your idea about paranormal claim is a generalisation, why...BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERY PARANORMAL CLAIM. you do not have all the information available to you that you can actually justify your claim.

"Sorry, the logician is much more grounded and the believer is stuck in an ephemeral flight of fancy. Their mindsets are not even vaguely similar."

I have found your statements displaying this same 'flight of fancy' you fancy that a logician is more correct when I have clearly shown the opposite.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7009244 - 06/04/07 08:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

We communicate here using a logic-based device: computer
We travel in logic-based devices: cars, trains, planes, boats, etc...

While the ideas we communicate via our computers may be illogical, this does not alter the nature of the device.

Quote:

"How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out."

And there is a system to many of these games that if, YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, then you can have better chances at winning.




Hmmm...so a system based on logic can be used to improve your chances of winning? How does this contradict his statement? Or are you asserting that there is a system based on hunches and gut-feelings?


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InvisibleBERSERK DESTROYER
King Hella!

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 25,656
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Veritas]
    #7009257 - 06/04/07 08:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Holding a spiritual belief as a result of your own spiritual experiences isn't a bad thing. Holding a belief because of other people's professed experiences is utterly ridiculous.


--------------------
Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: BERSERK DESTROYER]
    #7009391 - 06/04/07 09:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

From what I've seen, many people who hold spiritual beliefs and claim them to be due to a personal experience are kidding themselves.

Would the average Bible Thumper have the beliefs they have if they'd been born in China instead of middle America's Bible Belt?

Probably not.

And from what I've heard and read, believers in Creation almost universally know absolutely nothing about biology or Evolution. They believe what they've been told, then later they forget this and internalize the belief as if it were a personal and original direct communication from God. And why wouldn't they? War propaganda has a long history of relative success. Just tell someone something enough times, and eventually most will believe it. So it goes for religious propaganda.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Veritas]
    #7010726 - 06/05/07 04:05 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
We communicate here using a logic-based device: computer
We travel in logic-based devices: cars, trains, planes, boats, etc...

While the ideas we communicate via our computers may be illogical, this does not alter the nature of the device.

Quote:

"How can the logician be more certain that hunches and gut-feelings are unreliable? Because Las Vegas thrives on such self-delusion and myriad pyschological studies have born this out."

And there is a system to many of these games that if, YOU HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, then you can have better chances at winning.




Hmmm...so a system based on logic can be used to improve your chances of winning?  How does this contradict his statement? Or are you asserting that there is a system based on hunches and gut-feelings?




nah...you are misinterpreting the idea :smile:

read again

"...there are many many times that our logic, however well research, ends up being wrong. I stated this before, it has to deal with the fact that there was something else, some other piece of information that you do NOT know. And that's my point, you cannot know the inner workings of everything around us. However based on empirical evidence your ideas may be, they are by no means 100% correct. In this regard, YOU CANNOT SAY with 100% accuracy that ideas based on science are more true than a religious person's belief system"

And that's what the thread is about; that it is wrong or incorrect to trust in something that there is no evidence for. that one way of thinking is 'better' or 'more correct' than the other because one system uses logic.  I feel that logic is limited because logic needs information to be correct.  Think of the many times you made a decision based on logic and was still wrong.

After all, there's a huge universe out there that we have no idea about. 

in short...who's to say which one is better than the other.  the very fact that one has to question why people believe in souls, or why a person believes in god, or anything like that, shows their 'faith' in logic, which is just another belief system.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlinetools_n_corpses
why did i choosethis name
Male

Registered: 09/27/06
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7010809 - 06/05/07 05:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Everyone have a read of this:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/maslow.htm

RELGIONS, VALUES & PEAK EXPERIENCES


--------------------
"Misery only doth exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; naught save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.
"


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Offlinehummermania00
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Registered: 04/07/07
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7011137 - 06/05/07 10:57 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The question of whether God exists in fact is immaterial.

This is why charlatans (PeterPopoff) who claim to read your mind through God and heal you with God's magic touch, and fake psychics (Sylvia Brown) who prey on grieving people when their loved ones go missing, and even Muslim terrorists all have a huge following of mindless drones who inexplicably accept as true things not in evidence because "whether or not they exists is immaterial". :shrug:

Has it hurt anyone

See above.





Well, all of that is just part of the price that we, as humans, as people with the ability to make choices, have to deal with. It is called diversity. And just because someone makes a choice that others percieve to be illogical, without merit, non-conforming, silly, or stupid; too bad for the perception.
One mans dream is anothers reality, and vice versa.
When it crosses the illegal line then action is taken in some cases.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7011192 - 06/05/07 11:16 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In this regard, YOU CANNOT SAY with 100% accuracy that ideas based on science are more true than a religious person's belief system"


So nothing can be said to be 100% sure. Fine. And I agree that logic isn't the best tool in all situations.

That's the rub though. One needs to have the basic thinking capacity to know when logic is the best tool and when, lets say, intuitive thinking should rule. But logical thinking takes discipline and work so many choose to ignore it out of laziness. That's the problem I see. Now to believe in a religion with no evidence that is contradictory with logic and evidence is most likely just lazy or something worse. Still in a world where you cannot know ultimate reality one cannot say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7011216 - 06/05/07 11:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why do you pick on science like that? Science says nothing one way or another about mystical experiences.




HOPKINS SCIENTISTS SHOW HALLUCINOGEN IN MUSHROOMS CREATES UNIVERSAL “MYSTICAL” EXPERIENCE


http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

The experience has been around for a while, IMO. Religion uses references to the experience to keep people in line, like dangling the carrot. People are now realizing that religion's God(s) are not the experience at all. Science is proving the existence of the experience which then shines new light on past belief systems helping to illuminate the origin of most of the stories themselves.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: kaiowas]
    #7011270 - 06/05/07 11:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No, I am not "misinterpreting the idea," I think that you do not understand what OC was posting. None of the technology we take advantage of on a daily basis would exist without logic.

The use of "gut feelings" in gambling is likely to lose you all your money, whereas applying a logical understanding of the rules and patterns of the games can result in winning more than you lose.

If you want to claim that logic is just as subject to flaws as faith, you will need to do more than assert that logic is not 100% correct 100% of the time. How often is faith correct?

The point here, IMO, is not that logic is perfect, but that it is a more-reliable and accurate method of examining ideas than dogmatic faith.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7012773 - 06/05/07 07:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That report comments on people having experiences, not experiences. I doesn't (and can't) address if those experiences are real or entirely in the head of the tripper.

Science only addresses things that can be tested and for which there is observable evidence. That puts all things mystical squarely outside its scope.

This is not to say that the Scientific Method cannot test mystical claims. Many mystics who claim to predict the future, see auras, astral project, and all the other mumbo jumbo fall flat on their face when tested using the Scientific Method.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7012861 - 06/05/07 07:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"That report comments on people having experiences, not experiences."

??

"The researchers’ message isn’t just that psilocybin can produce mystical experiences. “I had a healthy skepticism going into this,” says Griffiths, “and that finding alone was a surprise.” But, as important, he says, “is that, under very defined conditions, with careful preparation, you can safely and fairly reliably occasion what’s called a primary mystical experience that may lead to positive changes in a person."

Aren't they observing the evidence and testing the theory??

Seems like they are using the Scientific Method to at least test the experience and its effects on some, never mind the claims of others.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7012961 - 06/05/07 08:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

They are commenting on the people having experiences. They say nothing about whether or not the experience is anything but inside the experiencer's head.

The truth of the experience is not testable, so science doesn't say anything about it. Whether or not a lot of people have the experience and its effect on them IS testable. That's what the report comments on.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7013025 - 06/05/07 08:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Wouldn't the experiencer's head be about the only place that the experience could happen?? It is a chemical that you ingest.

What truth of the experience??


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7013053 - 06/05/07 08:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What truth of the experience??

If you eat mushrooms and experience talking to God, either that was REALLY God (true experience) or it was all in your head and there is no God (not-true experience).

The experiencing is real. Science can verify this by looking at your physiological response. The experience itself can't be verified or falsified by science, so science has nothing to say about it.

Griffiths is quick to emphasize the scientific intent of the study. "We’re just measuring what can be observed," he says; "We're not entering into 'Does God exist or not exist.' This work can't and won't go there."


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: The Soul And The Monster [Re: Diploid]
    #7013112 - 06/05/07 09:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you experience talking to God(?) something is going on that is not made up, call it what you will.


--------------------


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Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract, Kratom Powder For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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