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OfflinePhanTomCat
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You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?)
    #6989312 - 05/31/07 12:01 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I once knew someone that had a "feeling" that they had become enlightened, then after the administered chemical influences faded away,  :smirk:  that person was left to reflect on the very possible reality that it might have been merely an illusion that he created to trick himself into **thinking** he was enlightened.....

What is the real objective meaning and feeling/state of "being enlightened"....?  :shrug:  Is it an abstract subjective state/idea that one creates for themselves by skillfully adjusting the normal circuitry driven mental mechanics by pumping a dose of select neurotransmitters into the synaptic sweet spots....?    Is it a skill....?    Do you actually get momentary glimpses of it....?    Is it an illusion....?  Is it a delusion....?  Is it all of the above, yet none of them really....?    Is it dancing with a riddle that rhymes....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6989603 - 05/31/07 12:54 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

the word enlightened has a lot of unnecessary associations with it. kind of the same thing as with god. ultiamtely it cannot be understood by the mind.

enlightenment is when there is no longer the question of whether you are enlightened or not. the you who seeks to be enlightened never gets enlightened. there is no doer. only doing.

realization does not happen after enough information has been understood. it is not some altered state which must be maintained.

it is the natural state.

right now we live in an altered state which must be maintained by our beliefs and ideas. enlightenment happens when there is no more interest in beliefs or ideas. no more hiding from the truth that you already know. no more illusion.

it is total surrender to the unknown. there is no security in freedom. yet there is. this shit makes no sense. haha that sort of just came out.

enlightenment is being ok with always being like this:  :shrug:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: palmersc]
    #6989643 - 05/31/07 01:01 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Acceptance of being the in state of knowing that you may never know....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6989665 - 05/31/07 01:05 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

right.

once you are ok with not knowing, there is nothing to do. no more scrambling to get things just right. truth does not care what we think about it. it does not change because we think it should.

so we submit to it and find that everything we thought was so important was not even real. then you can laugh about it.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: palmersc]
    #6989783 - 05/31/07 01:34 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

enlightenment is being unafraid of embracing the fear.


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: Syle]
    #6989822 - 05/31/07 01:51 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

do you really have a choice in the matter? or does it just happen all on its own?


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OfflineGrok
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: palmersc]
    #6989847 - 05/31/07 02:03 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

When you know what is truly possible, and how to bring another to understand as well.

When you understand why nothing matters. Or why there is nothing to be afraid of.

Anyone who believes they've reached a final state of enlightenment is fooling themselves.


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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6989942 - 05/31/07 03:04 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Acceptance of being the in state of knowing that you may never know....?


>^;;^<



maybe in one one millionth of its fullness this is so.
you are correct is seeing that it is an adjustment to programming and attitude, but you are still visualizing it by filling in content and limiting to that. i.e forcing the player into a media aspect.

the approach has to be unlimiting.

try not to confuse the media the player of media, or the moment with the entire unlimited stream of consciousness.

meditation adjusts the player, the media can be anything.
the player is not the movie, it is more transparent.

so it is not possible to see what it is like, and if you do this adjustment to your player, the obvious thing will be more transparency which is not something that you can really see.

and since it is ongoing, you don't know it like other content, it is not a knowable thing as media is, it is the doing of transparency.


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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6989952 - 05/31/07 03:10 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
I once knew someone that had a "feeling" that they had become enlightened, then after the administered chemical influences faded away,  :smirk:  that person was left to reflect on the very possible reality that it might have been merely an illusion that he created to trick himself into **thinking** he was enlightened.....





...whether or not he was enlightened (if we assume this exists)
it seems like your friend is very hard on themself...

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
What is the real objective meaning and feeling/state of "being enlightened"....?  :shrug:  Is it an abstract subjective state/idea that one creates for themselves by skillfully adjusting the normal circuitry driven mental mechanics by pumping a dose of select neurotransmitters into the synaptic sweet spots....?    Is it a skill....?    Do you actually get momentary glimpses of it....?    Is it an illusion....?  Is it a delusion....?  Is it all of the above, yet none of them really....?    Is it dancing with a riddle that rhymes....?
>^;;^<




Perhaps it doesn't matter what it is if you have it, it only matters
what it is if you conceptualize it. Only humans have this dilemma...
animals do not have the same concept of world that we have, they cannot
step outside of any already-stepped-outside-viewing myself. Enlightenment
in most Eastern traditions entails that you would not place yourself outside of enlightenment,
hence you do not mention it (because you are fully incorporated with it).


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6990301 - 05/31/07 08:18 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Just an observation...

I've encountered a number of individuals within the online environment who claim to be enlightened. In most every case I've found that I preferred to put as much distance between them and myself as possible. Often, they were arrogant, pushy, bullying even with an inflated sense of self-importance and grandiosity that they wore on their sleeve of "egolessness" [See addendum].

The difficulty, as palmer touched on earlier in the discussion, is that status is linked to the term and some individuals will grasp onto that as a means of securing "specialness" and identity -- the epitome of what enlightenment is not. The other difficulty is that in claiming the label as a descriptor, you have just climbed into a box of limitations -- enlightenment is not about limitations.

"Enlightened" is one of the terms that was applied by others to my own experience, so it's one I've sat with and investigated much as I investigated the other label that was applied. I don't consider myself to be enlightened although I do consider myself to have had some powerful awakening experiences. If ever I was enlightened if was within the darkness of that space I entered. I don't know how long I held that space because "I" did not exist. "I" was nothing in those moments or hours -- however long that portion of my experience actually lasted.

There is some merit to the idea that we are all enlightened already, just as it is true that beneath our clothes, we're all naked. But enlightenment is not about being all bundled up beneath multiple layers; it's a process that requires the stripping away of those layers to rest in our inherent nakedness. Neither is enlightenment the equivalent of stripping ourselves naked for a quick plunge and then, pulling our layers of clothes back on. Enlightenment is a permanent state and it's one that I'm not convinced can fully occur as long as you still retain the ultimate piece of clothing -- your body. The only way to take your body off is to die.

What I have discovered about enlightenment thus far is that it's not something anyone would ever want to be. There is value in picking it up, turning it this way and that, examining what it presents itself to be, but ultimately, you have to throw it away -- it will limit you if you actually take it on. It's just a trick of the light. Spit, don't swallow.


[* As an addendum: One area where I expect to see a certain degree of grandiosity and inflation is in individuals undergoing psychosis. Quite frequently, they will self-identify in those states with being Christ, Buddha, etc. This is often interpreted literally by those around them when it should be interpreted metaphorically -- they are expressing a state of consciousness accompanied by the degree of emotions we would associate with Buddha or Christ, e.g. universal love and compassion.

Usually, the inflation passes when it's understood as a normal and common component of the experience. In the one situation I've seen where it didn't, I suspected that the attachment was a form of compensation for the shame and inhumane treatment that individual went through during his experience.]

.


Edited by spiritualemerg (05/31/07 08:58 AM)


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6990513 - 05/31/07 10:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

This I which thinks it is on some path is fairly new, but it doesn't matter. If what I say is true, this is only you reflecting back you. Even if its not true, its still you.

Quote:

spiritualemerg said:
If ever I was enlightened if was within the darkness of that space I entered. I don't know how long I held that space because "I" did not exist. "I" was nothing in those moments or hours -- however long that portion of my experience actually lasted.




This is something I used to believe. This belief is limiting because the mind comes back in and says: "how can I keep doing that?" It thinks that if it can grasp on to that state, then it will know enlightenment. The mind associates enlightenment with some mystical state. But that is just the mind's idea of it. Mystical states are no less impermanent than any others.

Quote:


Enlightenment is a permanent state and it's one that I'm not convinced can fully occur as long as you still retain the ultimate piece of clothing -- your body.




What happens when you drop this belief?

Quote:

it will limit you if you actually take it on. It's just a trick of the light. Spit, don't swallow.




or this one?


Yes this is an on going process. Taking each layer as it comes up and dispelling untruths. When the security of the illusion of knowing is no longer satisfactory, that layer will be dropped.


Edited by palmersc (05/31/07 12:00 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6990853 - 05/31/07 12:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Enlightened ...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6991545 - 05/31/07 03:24 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Here's what I see. I see a lot of stoned or not youngsters telling each other about enlightenment when IMO they are just repeating something they've read somewhere. Anyone here who is not enlightened really doesn't have the authority to say what enlightenment is. So I'll add my worthless opinion to the pot. Enlightenment (whatever the fuck that is) is for pretenders. Sorry if I rained on anybodys parade.;)

:boring:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: Icelander]
    #6991853 - 05/31/07 04:49 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

it's ok. all appropriate.

there is no need to go anywhere to find out who you are. but a realized being can facilitate the process.

but these guys aren't saying anything you don't already know. so the mind hears it and it really isn't intended for the mind. these truths go past the mind and into the silence which knows.

i know you dig castaneda's work and i do too. what don juan was doing when he talked to the tonal or mind was trick it into letting the nagual hear what was going on and awaken.

while don juan is cleverly hacking away at the cords which keep carlos in the trance state, his mind is busy trying to compute and being frustrated. at some point the mind sees its limitations and gives in to the unknown.

attention is no longer fixated on the limited tonal which he had built up, and he can see the totality of himself. it does not depend on age or social class or education. it is entirely intuitive.

so really when you read these things it is best to just let them seep in and not think about them. and of course it is best to listen to somebody who can see since they are dealing out the real deal.

i just find it helpful to try and put into words what resonates for me. kind of like carlos always writing. it doesn't matter though.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: palmersc]
    #6992037 - 05/31/07 06:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

palmer: This is something I used to believe. This belief is limiting because the mind comes back in and says: "how can I keep doing that?" It thinks that if it can grasp on to that state, then it will know enlightenment.

I would suggest that a mind that believes that enlightenment is a goal worthy of pursuing might go down that path. I'm not interested in being enlightened. History is riddled with tales of enlightened gurus and masters -- many of whom may have had awakening experiences, but it didn't stop them from being human. Being human is what I'm interested in being; not being enlightened.


Re: The ultimate piece of clothing...

What happens when you drop this belief?

Hmmm. I like that belief. It's based on some honest experience. I think I've left it a time or two but for now at least, I have one.


Re: Spit. Don't swallow.

or this one?

I'm keeping that one too. It works for me. I've never read Carlos Castenada, I'd never read about mystics or shamans or Buddhism or Jung or anything like that. I didn't try to make things happen; they happened. I wasn't seeking enlightenment before, I'm not seeking it now. If enlightenment wants me, it knows where to find me. I'm going to keep on doing what I have been doing. Others are free to do what they wish to do.


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6992197 - 05/31/07 06:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Being human is what I'm interested in being; not being enlightened




I know man. The whole thing is quite disillusioning. Realizing who you are and living from that place does not mean you are any less human. I noticed you have not read castaneda, but don juan uses the term "controlled folly." perhaps interpreted as being in this world but not of it.

Quote:

spiritualemerg said:
I'd never read about mystics or shamans or Buddhism or Jung or anything like that. I didn't try to make things happen; they happened. I wasn't seeking enlightenment before, I'm not seeking it now. If enlightenment wants me, it knows where to find me. I'm going to keep on doing what I have been doing.




This first transformative experience of yours just happened. That is how it happens. it happens. how it happens... who knows. But it looks like after it happened you starting reading all you could to figure out what the hell happened.

yes we continue doing what we're doing because we've never stopped doing what we're doing.

unfortunately it's out of your hands now. perhaps you have let yourself know this. perhaps the the you that thought it had control has reasserted itself with command. but it is wounded.

this whole conversation about enlightenment lately might be a little too in your face. but the whole process is natural. evolution of consciousness and it's entirely impersonal. not in a negative way... just not about you.

be well.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6993123 - 05/31/07 10:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

EVERYONE  that has responded in this thread made sense, to my friend....  :grin:
Even Icelander's "rain on the parade" resonates with how my friend may feel about it all now, looking back....
He just knew there was some wonderful feelings, and some magical "ultimate confidence",
and knowing that each person that you would come into contact with that day would be a powerfully positive experience,
and some kind of knowing understanding of "everything", and so much more that can't be described in words -
and all of that wrapped up into one ball seemed to find an association with the word "enlightenment", or even something "divine"....
Just because it seemed to feel so real, and so powerful, and so new, and so utterly incredible....

Had he not actually gone thru the experience himself, he would not be able to fathom someone else's description of it....
There were things learned and taken from the experience that play a positive effect on his life today....
Whether it was actually "enlightenment", or not - that single fact makes it something that was well worthwhile, and valuable....
The "ultimate confidence" is gone, and the wonderful feelings are gone (not just drug induced feelings, there was something more)....

My friend enjoyed his brief stay in whatever/wherever it was that was happening, and it would be nice place to visit again (or even stay!),
but then one has to wonder if achieving something that may not actually be reality would be a place one would want to stay for an extended period of time....(?)
Unless, the actual goal of life is to escape the physical reality we all have grown accustomed to being part of....   
But, that is like having a goal of becoming MORE than life, which seems like it may start bordering on delusional/illusional thinking.....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6993686 - 06/01/07 12:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

When you have no attachments to yourself, the questioning of others whether you are enlightened or the idea of enlightenment, then it seems naturally your consciousness escapes all attachments.

If you still feel the need to attain enlightenment for inner peace, to teach others or to escape the fear of death, then you are a far ways away from Nirvana. Attachments such as these will bring you back time and time again, as we can never have enough inner peace or teach enough people to permanently escape desire.

The fact that we question enlightenment and our human attachments, and that others answer it, indicates that people care about what enlightenment is, why others don't believe they've attained it and why we haven't attained it now. These are delusions. There is no you to attain enlightenment, and there is nothing to teach. The Buddha said that attached people thought of him as enlightened simply because he had not attained a thing. There is nothing for us to attain here either, because there is no self to claim ownership.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6993814 - 06/01/07 12:31 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I am certainly more Enlightened than I used to be. There was a time when I had not heard of Enlightenment. I took my first psychedelic in 1971 (not counting cannabis - hashish - which I first tried New Years Eve 1969), and I have been consciously working towards a full time Enlightenment ever since.

I am of the opinion that Enlightenment occurs relative to one's own stance in life, not another person's. I do not compare myself to mythic figures like Gautama Buddha, Jesus the Christ, Padmasambava, or anyone else. I compare myself to the pre-Enlightenment Mark[os] of my ignorant youth. The mythic paradigms are my lighthouses to follow to solid ground. I am not them, but we share the Light as our true nature. In the words of BE HERE NOW: "You are the desire to be Enlightened. You are Enlightened."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: You know that you actually ARE Enlightened....(?) [Re: Ravus]
    #6993972 - 06/01/07 01:14 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Now mind you, this "EXPERIENCE" happened almost two years ago, and it lasted for about 2 months or so....

The "need" was not felt to "find" anything, it was more-less just the "urge" to search and find anything and everything....
I don't think that there is anything to teach anyone about the "experience", to be honest with you, it really wasn't even about "me"....!?
It was more about everything/everyone else, and how perfect everything/everyone else was....
And EVERY little tiny detail was noticed about everything, and everything that was noticed, was just perfect....
And that "feeling", or "realization", or "acknowledgement" of knowing that everything/everyone else was perfect,
is what made the experience so fucking grand....  :grin:

With death, it really is pointless to fear.... 
We are already physically dead - at some point in our time-line, we just aren't "there" at this moment.....
Nirvana = "enlightenment"....?  The experience was two years ago, it don't feel quite like that any more.... 
Actually, in regards to the feelings/euphoric level, nothing even close to what it was back then....!
Desire....?    There are many desires....    :lol:   
Make money, spend money and collect a lot of shit....!    :lol:
Why not....!?    It is all here just for amusement/entertainment anyways....    :smirk:

**IF** the actual state of "enlightenment" was reached back then (which I am not saying was),
then it is just another part of the collective experiences in the past that are part of who I have been in "my" own memory....
The experience was very much enjoyable, on a euphoric level....   
Is that "needed"....?    It isn't food, water, sex, or oxygen (nor ice cream!!! :smile: )....   
Seeking the feeling again would be feeding a desire for the pleasure aspect of the experience, not really a "need"....

I just think, eerrrr.... 
My friend just thinks that it was a very cool experience, and would recommend it to everyone -
whether it was actually a passing state of "enlightenment" or not....!  :smile:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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