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ConnemaraMarble
Comfortably Numb
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6935424 - 05/18/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes. But religion is just an excuse.
In regards to this, I mean. Sorry, this n00b is still adjusting to the site
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: ConnemaraMarble]
#6935447 - 05/18/07 04:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
ConnemaraMarble said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes. But religion is just an excuse.
In regards to this, I mean. Sorry, this n00b is still adjusting to the site
No, I was not trying to contradict, but to add And welcome
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: ConnemaraMarble]
#6935901 - 05/18/07 06:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
ConnemaraMarble said: The only reason this group of natives are being targeted is because their beliefs are followed by a minor group of people who have no Christianic or Catholic beliefs. It goes the same for, say, Sikhs with their kirpans (there was a case in Montreal where a teen was almost banned from his school for carrying one) or Musslim women with their hijabs (which are a symbol of modesty, not oppression).
There is no way you can compare a peaceful and mind-expanding indian ceremony with violent oppressive religions like Islam and Christianity. Religions that are spread by the sword have no business pointing fingers at anyone else's beliefs.
You are wrong to suggest that prohibiting swords or ski-mask style headgear has anything in common with disrupting legitimate religious practice.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: ArcofaJourney]
#6935982 - 05/18/07 07:15 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Calling their religion or customs a "superstition" is a bit over the top for my tastes.
All beliefs in supernatural things are superstition. Religion is belief in supernatural things.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Quais]
#6936003 - 05/18/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've seen a few children eat peyote, even a 1 year old, and they were perfectly ok.
Without an MRI and a Ph.D in neurology, you can't know they were 'ok'.
Even with those things, neurological science isn't even close to being able to determine that.
Kids' brains are still in the process of forming the structures and neural connections they will depend on for the rest of their lives. Maybe mescaline at age 5 will lead to a 20 point increase in IQ, or maybe a 20 point decrease. Nobody knows and until we do, it's irresponsible to give a kid drugs that might hurt them.
Kids shouldn't do drugs. They'll have plenty of time for that after their brain finishes developing.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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ArcofaJourney
Internaltransportationdevice
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 582
Loc: your imagination
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Diploid]
#6936030 - 05/18/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Calling their religion or customs a "superstition" is a bit over the top for my tastes.
All beliefs in supernatural things are superstition. Religion is belief in supernatural things.
Yes, of course, but the implied meaning of the statement seemed derogatory. Also, many religious people don't believe that their practices are superstitions but absolute reality. And it's their right to believe these things, although i don't agree.
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ConnemaraMarble
Comfortably Numb
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: fastfred]
#6936391 - 05/18/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
Quote:
ConnemaraMarble said: The only reason this group of natives are being targeted is because their beliefs are followed by a minor group of people who have no Christianic or Catholic beliefs. It goes the same for, say, Sikhs with their kirpans (there was a case in Montreal where a teen was almost banned from his school for carrying one) or Musslim women with their hijabs (which are a symbol of modesty, not oppression).
There is no way you can compare a peaceful and mind-expanding indian ceremony with violent oppressive religions like Islam and Christianity. Religions that are spread by the sword have no business pointing fingers at anyone else's beliefs.
You are wrong to suggest that prohibiting swords or ski-mask style headgear has anything in common with disrupting legitimate religious practice.
First off, you should read a little into Islam. It's not violent or oppressive in any of their practices, it's just the extremists that give it a bad name(which is something that happens in all religions.) I think you're missing my point, though. I was just pointing out that many religions without Christian influences tend to be singled out and criticized when practiced in the west, simply bcause they're outside of our cultural norms. The native groups have been (hence this post), Sikhs have been (hence the example I gave) and have Islamists (as you've bluntly shown). Prohibiting "swords and ski-mask style headgear" has everything do to with disrupting legitamite religious practices, think about it. Hard.
p.s. You're right, sword-spread religions have no right to point fingers at anyone else. However, Catholicism was spread by the sword in the crusades; if you didn't convert, you were killed. So, in direct link to that, our christian/catholic-based government really has no right to tell the native group to practice their customs another way, just to make them comfortable. Good point.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: ConnemaraMarble]
#6945894 - 05/21/07 05:58 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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> There is no way you can compare a peaceful and mind-expanding indian ceremony
Not all those indian ceremonies are peaceful and mind-expanding... back in the day, a lot of them were performed before going to war with the neighboring tribe.
> I was just pointing out that many religions without Christian influences tend to be singled out and criticized when practiced in the west, simply bcause they're outside of our cultural norms.
I would take it a step further and claim that all religions in the west that don't embrace mainstream Christian beliefs are singled out and criticized, if not worse. Granted, the religious freedom in the US are much better than anywhere else that I have lived or visited, but there is still a large bias, in the community and government, against anything that is not mainstream Christianity.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Seuss]
#6945951 - 05/21/07 06:33 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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faith is believing what you know ain't so.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Bridgeburner]
#6947386 - 05/21/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said: faith is believing what you know ain't so.
Exactly. That's the reason why it is so dangerous. But I really think that this is not a fight between religions, it is a fight against psychedelics.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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somethingstew
Gonzolier
Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 19
Loc: sunnyvale
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6948072 - 05/21/07 04:52 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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i'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the Catholic church regularly distributes alcohol to minors during the sacrament of Communion (where it is known as the blood of God). how would giving a child a sip of peyote tea be any different. note that during alcohol prohibition, the catholic church was specifically exempt. peace.
-------------------- Our religion is where our love is. -Thoreau Dry Hump for Jesus!
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: somethingstew]
#6948195 - 05/21/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Exactly. And that's because alcohol doesn't do what psychedelics do. Alcohol makes people "social" and submitted to social rules while psychedelics dissolve all those bonds. It's easy to see why the government fights against them
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: somethingstew]
#6948299 - 05/21/07 05:53 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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the Catholic church regularly distributes alcohol to minors during the sacrament of Communion
To be fair, in almost all cases only bread is given to the congregation. The wine is reserved for the priests only.
Also, the Catholics' goal is to literally, cannibalistic consume the body and blood of Christ in the form of transmogrified bread and wine, not to get drunk.
The Indian's goal is to make the child trip.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Quais
Stranger
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Diploid]
#6951953 - 05/22/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I've seen a few children eat peyote, even a 1 year old, and they were perfectly ok.
Without an MRI and a Ph.D in neurology, you can't know they were 'ok'.
Even with those things, neurological science isn't even close to being able to determine that.
Kids' brains are still in the process of forming the structures and neural connections they will depend on for the rest of their lives. Maybe mescaline at age 5 will lead to a 20 point increase in IQ, or maybe a 20 point decrease. Nobody knows and until we do, it's irresponsible to give a kid drugs that might hurt them.
Kids shouldn't do drugs. They'll have plenty of time for that after their brain finishes developing.
Well, i also have a friend who is now 22, ate peyote several times from the ages 2-12, and he is a very smart man and in good health. I'm not debating whether it can be harmful or not, but from what i've seen peyote is a great medicine for all ages and sizes. The native americans don't refer to it as a 'drug' either.
Also, i personally don't think it's irresponsible because giving children peyote has been a part of this synthesized process for many hundreds of years..
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Quais
Stranger
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Diploid]
#6952001 - 05/22/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: the Catholic church regularly distributes alcohol to minors during the sacrament of Communion
To be fair, in almost all cases only bread is given to the congregation. The wine is reserved for the priests only.
Also, the Catholics' goal is to literally, cannibalistic consume the body and blood of Christ in the form of transmogrified bread and wine, not to get drunk.
The Indian's goal is to make the child trip.
Wait a minute...have you even been to a peyote ceremony? Their goal is not to make the child 'trip' but to heal it, nourish it, strengthen it.
You've got it bass-ackwards. I recommend you go to an actual peyote ceremony and get first-hand experience before you make such assumptions.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Quais]
#6954975 - 05/23/07 01:43 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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> To be fair, in almost all cases only bread is given to the congregation. The wine is reserved for the priests only.
The only people who don't take wine at mass are recovering alcoholics.
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andyspof
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/05
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: fastfred]
#6959685 - 05/24/07 12:04 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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stop singling out the catholic church, nearly all christian churches have bread and wine. An din most churches wine is available to anyone who wants it. Also lets say peyote has a damaging results to a developing brain (which i dont hink it does, but im no scientist) this child was given only a small amount and secondly, it is common knowledge the alcohol is brain damaging wether your brain is developing or not. But to conclud ethis so long as there is alcohol served to children as young as 7 in christian churches, america has no right to tell native americans they cant give there young a deeply respected medicine.
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andyspof
Stranger
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: andyspof]
#6959688 - 05/24/07 12:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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sorry for my bad spelling i may have brain damage from communion wine
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Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: andyspof]
#6960374 - 05/24/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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i bet the goverment wants all indians to shoot up on heroin instead so they'd finally be extinct.
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jeetered
Stranger
Registered: 07/07/06
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Re: Children in middle of peyote use case [Re: Bridgeburner]
#6961356 - 05/24/07 12:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I grew up on the reservation in Cherokee, along the foothills of the smoky mountains. I'm 100% choctaw , an early band of the tsagali nation. (cherokee)
I ingested peyote at an early age, it was what we did. I am a much better person for it today.
not all Native Americans remain on the reservations, yes, i own a computer, yes i own a phone.
anyhow. this woman did nothing wrong. If you think people should be jailed for expressing their religion, then line up. Can't make rules for one, and not for the others. It's completely legal for children to drink wine during the sacrament.
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