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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6925213 - 05/16/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

I think that this is the quote which I read as implying that more-evolved thinking was undesirable:

Once the assemblage point has moved, the movement itself entails moving from self-reflection, and this, in turn, assures a clear connecting link with the spirit. After all, it was self-reflection that had disconnected man from the spirit in the first place.

Self-reflection is what makes us what we are, homo sapiens sapiens, thinking thinking man. We are able to reflect upon ourselves, upon our thoughts, to take a step back from our reactions to events & consider what we might do differently.

While it might be true that obsessive thinking could separate us from spirit, or at least interfere with our enjoyment of being alive, I cannot see how self-reflection, in and of itself, would disconnect us.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6925262 - 05/16/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

In my opinion this is a matter of semantics. From what I recall, the “thinking” Castaneda was mentioning were in fact questions with a paranoid attitude. By thinking I understand something more lucid and elaborate and also something based on logic, which was not the case presented there since all he did was a constant denial that there might of been more to reality then his eyes could see and his ears could hear. That is fixed thinking, which also, in my opinion, puts a stop to getting further into a lucid inquire. Having the thought that he was being fooled by some master-tricks of Don Juan is not a healthy attitude and does not sustain any form of rational since, having that in mind, he continued being Don Juan’s apprentice.
So, in my opinion, what Don Juan was disagreeing was that paranoid attitude and not thinking itself. Sometimes putting too many questions are an impediment to real thinking because they confuse us even more. Trying to find equivalent from the material in the esoteric is like thinking your meditative state. This is all about mind states and having to put a stop to ones thoughts for a period does not exclude the ability to think in other circumstances. More to that, I think we get out more of any experience if we use them both in the right circumstances.


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Safe in your soul
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6925688 - 05/16/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

More evolved thinking...as you put it...is very suitable to rational tasks, but quite undesirable for non rational based functions such as creative thought. I do not think Castaneda ever considered complex thought undesirable, as he was very invested in his intellectual achievements and often said so. I do think that he thought that there was also a time and place for more basic thought as well. Both forms of thought are nothing but tools with specific uses. Self reflection IS what separates us from other species...and the true seat of power for homosapien, but it is also the root of misery for our species as well.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6925852 - 05/16/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

but it is also the root of misery for our species as well.




Only because, without that capacity, we could not engage in neurotic thinking. Self-reflection does not cause misery, but it can be utilized ineffectively through what CC refers to as indulgence and self-importance.

To say that self-reflection is the root of human misery is akin to saying that having opposable thumbs is the root of stabbing yourself with a knife.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6925896 - 05/16/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

I agree, and that was what I intended to mean.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6925921 - 05/16/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

What?  You mean we agree, as usual.  How boring.  :wink:


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Offlinegrebarius
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6927380 - 05/16/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
According to Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan anyway, there was a time according to him that humans possessed silent knowledge. Knowing without thinking. He called it seeing. When mankind began his self reflection he kicked himself out of Eden so to speak.



Yep evolution's a bitch :crazy2:. The period of silent knowledge sounds to me like the period when humans didn't have language, the period when there was no internal dialoge, the period when we unintillegent.

Quote:

Icelander said:The path of Sorcery then is a way of returning to silent knowledge by dethroning self-importance as our primary way of relating to our experience.




Im going to side with Veritas here and say de-evolving and obsessive thinking aren't necesary, that it is in front not behind where we should look. I do agree that the ego must be kept in check, but that is what we have that wonderful internal dialogue for. I know am just an animal here but dethroning self-importance? Now i have to side with Ayn Rand and disagree with that. Dethroning my self-importance would extinguish the fire inside. Just sit back and kill motivation?

Quote:

Icelander said:Once obsessive thinking about ourselves is reduced or stopped for a time then we again experience silent awareness and are guided by a clear channel of intuition.




Whether it sounds like it or not, I DO understand where you are coming from, I do know the type of thinking/people you are talking about. We must keep ourselves in check by whichever technique we prefer.

Quote:

Veritas said:
The new brain will be in the driver's seat, whether we dream of steering with the old brain or not.  The question is, will that driver be clutching the wheel, overcome by Road Rage, drinking coffee and eating a sandwich while talking on the cell phone, or will that driver be calmly cruising through everyday life?




              :thumbup:


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InvisibleLosAngelesGraff
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Icelander]
    #6928509 - 05/17/07 03:42 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

:karatechop: thanks for the info!!! really tho


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Offlinegrebarius
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: LosAngelesGraff]
    #6928842 - 05/17/07 07:25 AM (16 years, 21 days ago)

blah, i should have read more thoroughly :crazy:


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Sorcery, the journey of return. [Re: Veritas]
    #6929942 - 05/17/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 21 days ago)

The collective consciousness gives ideas to the individual. The chronological life is a conscious thought as well.
1913: Watson said that the subject matter of psychology should be behavior, not consciousness and gives allegations that consciousness is a hangover from our superstitious pre-scientific past, akin to belief in witchcraft. 1971 Skinner: in ‘Beyond freedom and dignity’, extends the work done with monkeys into the human realm; a deterministic denial of freedom in the post existentialist pre internet age. As Pavlov goes so is the power of rejection as we find new ways to describe its path to the genetic core. Casuistic anomalies find the way to reality. So there is The teachings of Don Juan followed by a Different Reality and The Clan of the Cave Bear followed by Valley of the horses by Auel. Agreement? According to sophism the truth is just a matter of votes / (therefore) the idea of magic is all-powerful. Said the millions.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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