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Madtowntripper
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So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are?
#6919194 - 05/15/07 09:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I dont think anyone is arguing that Saddam never had them. I dont think he gassed those Kurds like everyone else does, but plenty of gas was used against Iran, and Saddam said he had them up until near the invasion.
But even the the most ardent Bush/War lover is now willing to admit that Saddam had no stockpiles, that he was telling the truth when he said that, and that everyone's intelligence was wildly inaccurate.
So, where are they?
Do you think he buried them?
You dont actually think he destroyed them, in good faith?
Do you think he gave them to Iran to hold onto?
Why not just leave them for one of the Baath'ist groups to pick up after the invasion and use against the Americans? You'll never convince me he gave them to some Islamic splinter group, or they would have used them by now. On a large scale, not the one fizzled nerve gas bomb they find every few months.
So what do you think happened?
Just curious to see what the general consensus is, since almost everyone admits that this particular rationale for the war was incorrect, but nobody seems to concerned that it is incorrect because WE STILL DONT KNOW WHERE THE WEAPONS ARE.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
Edited by Madtowntripper (05/15/07 09:54 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6919219 - 05/15/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Maybe they are in Idaho.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6919236 - 05/15/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well, we should surely invade and lay waste to their state.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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fireworks_god
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6919242 - 05/15/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't even think our government could fair any better invading Idaho than they have Iraq.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Seuss
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6919429 - 05/15/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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> So, where are they?
I suspect that he had a lot less than claimed. Chemical weapons are difficult to stabilize for long term storage. If he had anything left, I think he would have used it rather than burning tires hoping that the smoke would slow the US invasion down. Iran would have been the last country he would have given weapons. If he had WMDs and did give them to a foreign country, it would be Syria, most likely.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Seuss]
#6919440 - 05/15/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I believe there has been a lot of speculation that the Russians helped him ship them to Syria.
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Seuss
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: fireworks_god]
#6919448 - 05/15/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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> I don't even think our government could fair any better invading Idaho than they have Iraq.
The US military has no problem kicking ass; they are very, very good at what they train to do. (Just don't enroll them to police another country. Soldiers are not police officers to protect and to serve; they train to kill.) The problem lies with politicians... I doubt George could point out Idaho on the map on his first try. Invading isn't the problem... getting out is.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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GreenAssHands
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Seuss]
#6919459 - 05/15/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Atlanta
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RosettaStoned
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6919673 - 05/15/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think they were mostly destroyed during the inspections after the 1st gulf war. What he had left after inspectors were likely so small that they either haven't been found or were sold to any number of possible nations who wanted them.
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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phi1618
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6921827 - 05/15/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think he hadn't had chemical weapons for years before we invaded. He just didn't want the Iraqis (and to a lesser extent, anyone else in the region) to know he didn't have them, because he ruled through fear.
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Economist
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6922042 - 05/15/07 09:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Funny story.
We've actually known about where the WMDs went for several years now.
Unlike the Nazi party, the Ba'athists weren't very organized, nor were they very big on document destruction. As a result, after the successful invasion of Iraq the US military captured almost all internal government documents kept by Saddam's regime.
An analysis of the documents was printed in Foreign Affairs almost a year ago (the May/June 2006 issue, you can read the article here: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060501faessay85301/kevin-woods-james-lacey-williamson-murray/saddam-s-delusions-the-view-from-the-inside.html ).
I highly recommend reading the whole thing, as it's INCREDIBLY fascinating and it answers a TON of questions.
For those who don't want to read the whole thing, I'll give you the short version of what happened with the WMDs:
Iraq didn't have any, however Saddam believed that the illusion of WMDs was a significant deterrent to nations like Israel and Iran, and so began an official policy of pretending that he had them. The weapons themselves are expensive, and Iraq was struggling under heavy sanctions. Throwing out inspectors, making statements to the contrary, and constant threats of using WMDs were all part of the official policy to pretend that Saddam actually had them.
The trouble was that an entire decade of fostering real WMD programs (the 1980s), along with generating false evidence of non-existant weapons resulted in a lot of "trace evidence" strewn about the country. Traces of various chemicals, tons of books and papers on how to construct the weapons, etc. could be found at installations throughout Iraq.
The tragedy is that Saddam knew Bush was determined to invade, so beginning in 2002 he genuinely started to try cooperating with UN Inspectors in an attempt to stave off an American invasion (his papers indicate his biggest fear was being the "next Afghanistan"). Unfortunately this led to a series of communiques that were misinterpretted by the West. Iraqis were told to destroy any traces or evidence of WMDs, and the West interpretted these instructions as part of an operation to cover-up a weapons program, rather than a genuine attempt at compliance.
To be honest, I can't say I blame them either (though I still think invasion was not the answer). Saddam dedicated significant resources to make it look like he had WMDs for an entire decade (the 1990s), unfortunately he was entirely too good at it.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Economist]
#6924462 - 05/16/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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He did have them at some point in the 80's.
This is indisputable fact, as tens of thousands of gassed Iranians could tell you.
So were these from a foreign source? Or did they have the capability to produce them and stopped? What is your take on this?
Not trying to be argumentative, and I will indeed read the article you posted.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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trippindad82
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6924596 - 05/16/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: He did have them at some point in the 80's.
This is indisputable fact, as tens of thousands of gassed Iranians could tell you.
So were these from a foreign source? Or did they have the capability to produce them and stopped? What is your take on this?
Not trying to be argumentative, and I will indeed read the article you posted.
Being that we the US knowingly provided Saddam and Iraq with weapons in order to play another pawn during the cold war. In the first Persian Gulf war (Or the Iran-Iraq war if that's what you would like to call it) we didn't want USSR backed Iran to become a regional power and feel that it threatened our presence in the middle east (as I believe that Iran is/was unhappy with our presence in Saudi Arabia). The only next logical step for me, being that we ourselves have them, is that in providing Saddam with weapons, we also provided him with the wmd's that we later accused him of having. I recall reading an article in which Iranian's later said that the biological weapons has US markings on them.
-------------------- Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to blind person who has never seen a horse. ^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^ --------------------------------------
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Seuss
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: trippindad82]
#6924781 - 05/16/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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> I recall reading an article in which Iranian's later said that the biological weapons has US markings on them.
It must be true, since Iran would never lie and would never say anything that might cast a negative light upon America.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Economist
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6924929 - 05/16/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: He did have them at some point in the 80's.
This is indisputable fact, as tens of thousands of gassed Iranians could tell you.
So were these from a foreign source? Or did they have the capability to produce them and stopped? What is your take on this?
You're right in that Saddam definitely had access to WMDs in the 1980s. The article tends to agree with "Chemical" Ali's assertion that it is unlikely any were maintained well beyond 1987-1988 (again this is from analysis of internal Iraqi documents, so the picture can be sketchy in places). Given that the true financial strain on the regime wouldn't come until after the Gulf War, 1991-1992 is probably a better estimate for when the last of the chemical weapons were finally allowed to degrade.
As for where they came in the first place, to be honest, we may never know.
Part of the problem is that the "investigative journalists" of the world have made the case for a multitude of sources (Robert Fisk, for example, has alternatively claimed that the "bulk" of Iraqi chemical weapons have come from the US, Germany, and Britain, depending on which article of his you read).
It's also entirely possible that the "official" story is true, and that chemicals were shipped to Iraq by western powers for legitimate means, but the Iraqis themselves turned them into weapons. There certainly is evidence of some scientific inquiry into the nature of chemical weapons on the part of the Iraqi regime, it's not entirely impossible that they has some (limited) success in this matter.
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zappaisgod
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Economist]
#6925102 - 05/16/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fisk? FISK?????? A man so buffoonish he got a word named after him.
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FrenchSocialist
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: zappaisgod]
#6925729 - 05/16/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I believe there has been a lot of speculation that the Russians helped him ship them to Syria.
Well apparently the ISG has not ruled out such a possibility:
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050427-121915-1667r.htm
Though I personally find an argument from ignorance rather dubious. And given the past intelligence presented to the public by the current administration, such as the claim that Iraq was attempting to procure materials from Africa to make nuclear weapons, I would say any intelligence presented is likely to have been cherry picked and exaggerated.
Edited by FrenchSocialist (05/16/07 04:44 PM)
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: Madtowntripper]
#6925840 - 05/16/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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zappaisgod
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
#6926001 - 05/16/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrenchSocialist said:
And given the past intelligence presented to the public by the current administration, such as the claim that Iraq was attempting to procure materials from Africa to make nuclear weapons, I would say any intelligence presented is likely to have been cherry picked and exaggerated.
That was British intelligence which reported that. They stand by it to this day and I believe it to have been the conclusion of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence as well.
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FrenchSocialist
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Re: So Where Do You Guys Think Those WMD's Are? [Re: zappaisgod]
#6927647 - 05/16/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
FrenchSocialist said:
And given the past intelligence presented to the public by the current administration, such as the claim that Iraq was attempting to procure materials from Africa to make nuclear weapons, I would say any intelligence presented is likely to have been cherry picked and exaggerated.
That was British intelligence which reported that. They stand by it to this day and I believe it to have been the conclusion of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence as well.
It was Bush cherry picking british intelligence. Last I read, the British officers qualified the statements they forwarded to Bush with a high degree of doubt. Perhaps you simply haven't been able to keep yourself properly updated on the matter, if so, you can hardly be blamed as the news isn't properly made public.
-------------------- "Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin
Edited by FrenchSocialist (05/16/07 11:42 PM)
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