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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Choose your path
    #6911738 - 05/14/07 07:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I just finished watching the film "Into Great Silence" which is about the life of Monks living an isolated existence high in the Alps.

Anyway, which do you think is a better path to "enlightenment," traveling the world, sort of pilgrimage style, or staying in one place, monastic style? Of course please explain your answers.
Which path
You may choose only one
Monastic - all you need to do to know the divine is to stay in one place and look inward
Pilgrimage - Get out there and see the world to attain enlightenment
Middle Path/combination of the two
The question is null (please explain why)


Votes accepted from (05/14/07 07:08 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6911745 - 05/14/07 07:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Middle path is more fun.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleAlephOne
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Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 150
Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6911749 - 05/14/07 07:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I say neither. Both are attempts to free oneself from obligation and care. Practicality and utility are far more meaningful and rewarding than ascetic contemplation or worldly indulgence.

As much as I can even use the word "enlightenment", I can only think of it as achieving a Saturnian stoicism.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6911761 - 05/14/07 07:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I almost always go with the Middle Way(because always taking the Middle Way is itself an extreme, and thus not the Middle Way). My own experience has shown me the value of moderation.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6911802 - 05/14/07 07:27 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

None of them.
Or all.
Or just one.
Depends on the person and depends on personal choice. If one method works for someone it might not work for somebody else and vice versa.
I think that first of all it's intention that counts. If one has the steady intention to expand awareness it will happen regardless the circumstances. If it is learning we're looking for it is exactly what we're going to get.
Now personally I would chose the middle path. I have moments where I'm a self-taught person while other times I feel the need to explore the world in it's every aspect, get to know all the cultures, life styles, people, feelings and whatever else there might be in this world. I think that since I'm here, alive, in this form I should go and check everything that might cross my mind and make the best of every experience/situation I might encounter, as well as making them happen if I feel like doing it.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6911874 - 05/14/07 07:43 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Depends on the person. Some people would find monasticism far too rigid and separated. Some people would find worldly exploration (the lay life perhaps?) meaningless and empty. It's about the individual, as there is not only one path.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6912098 - 05/14/07 08:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I chose the middle. I wouldn't be able to begin to explain to anyone how I feel without seeing various sights in the world/nature.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinewearejellyfish
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Re: Choose your path [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6912107 - 05/14/07 08:26 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i'd love to be constantly travelling. photographing and learning/observing other cultures.
but until i find someone to do that with me (and the money too).
then i am stuck in college :\


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Choose your path [Re: wearejellyfish]
    #6912121 - 05/14/07 08:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wearejellyfish said:
i'd love to be constantly travelling. photographing and learning/observing other cultures.
but until i find someone to do that with me (and the money too).
then i am stuck in college :\




I was just thinking about a nomad life myself :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Choose your path [Re: wearejellyfish]
    #6912173 - 05/14/07 08:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

lets do this

Quote:

I was just thinking about a nomad life myself




I wish and i'd like


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlineonlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy
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Re: Choose your path [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6912347 - 05/14/07 10:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

traveling to new places always puts me into a silent mindset, so many new sights to distract the mind. id love to save some grands and travel to thailand and live as cheaply as possible for as long as possible...


--------------------

Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness


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InvisibleAlephOne
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Re: Choose your path [Re: onlynow]
    #6912428 - 05/14/07 10:31 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I want to save enough money to rent a place in Montepulciano for a few months. I'd like Stockholm or Vienna, but I'd have to have a job there to consider living there for any length of time.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Choose your path [Re: gluke bastid]
    #6912771 - 05/14/07 01:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I answered null. I don't accept the terms of the question.

Most importantly: Some relatively hairless mammals do a particular
act; one invents a certain method to being really good at this
and they call it something captivating (like enlightenment); the other
hairless mammals try the method and achieve the same or similar results
with the act. They confuse 'doing the same act' and 'achieving the same
universal state' because of the seemingly good results and the catchy
name. Same thing could've happened with baseball if history had been
different.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Choose your path [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6912847 - 05/14/07 03:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

we could start our own tribe!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Choose your path [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6913252 - 05/14/07 06:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

AlephOne said:
Quote:

As much as I can even use the word "enlightenment", I can only think of it as achieving a Saturnian stoicism.




Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Some relatively hairless mammals do a particular act; one invents a certain method to being really good at this and they call it something captivating (like enlightenment)




gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Anyway, which do you think is a better path to "enlightenment,"




One thing I notice in this thread is that the word "enlightenment" is thrown around a bit without a consistent definition or understanding of what that word refers to.

So, since this seems to be an integral part of the topic, let's raise the question: what is enlightenment?

To me, it is the actualization of Nirvana. What is that? Here is a decent, albeit lengthy, definition.

Quote:

Nibbána, (Sanskrit nirvána): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). Nibbána constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery. Cf. Parinibbána.

"Extinction of greed, extinction of hate, extinction of delusion: this is called Nibbána" (S. XXXVIII. 1).

The 2 aspects of Nibbána are:

(1) The full extinction of defilements (kilesa-parinibbána), also called sa-upádi-sesa-nibbána (s. It. 41), i.e. 'Nibbána with the groups of existence still remaining' (s. upádi). This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect holiness (s. ariya-puggala).

(2) The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha-parinibbána), also called an-upádi-sesa-nibbána (s. It. 41, A. IV, 118), i.e. 'Nibbána without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - (App.: Nibbána).

Sometimes both aspects take place at one and the same moment, i.e. at the death of the Arahat; s. sama-sísí.

"This, o monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbána" (A. III, 32).

"Enraptured with lust (rága), enraged with anger (dosa), blinded by delusion (moha), overwhelmed, with mind ensnared, man aims at his own ruin, at the ruin of others, at the ruin of both, and he experiences mental pain and grief. But if lust, anger and delusion are given up, man aims neither at his own ruin, nor at the ruin of others, nor at the ruin of both, and he experiences no mental pain and grief. Thus is Nibbána visible in this life, immediate, inviting, attractive, and comprehensible to the wise" (A. III, 55).

"Just as a rock of one solid mass remains unshaken by the wind, even so neither visible forms, nor sounds, nor odours, nor tastes, nor bodily impressions, neither the desired nor the undesired, can cause such a one to waver. Steadfast is his mind, gained is deliverance" (A, VI, 55).

"Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible" (Ud. VIII, 3).

One cannot too often and too emphatically stress the fact that not only for the actual realization of the goal of Nibbána, but also for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anattá (q.v.), the egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive Nibbána - according to one's either materialistic or metaphysical leanings - either as annihilation of an ego, or as an eternal state of existence into which an ego or self enters or with which it merges. Hence it is said:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;

Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."

(Vis.M. XVI)



Literature: For texts on Nibbána, see Path, 36ff. - See Vis.M. XVI. 64ff. - Anattá and Nibbána, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 11); The Buddhist Doctrine of Nibbána, by Ven. P. Vajiranana & F. Story (WHEEL 165/166).




--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Choose your path [Re: dblaney]
    #6913483 - 05/14/07 07:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You've seen to speak alot of what Nirvana is lately, and about the nature of enlightement. Excuse me for asking, but are you talking from your own experience or by delving into other people's words about it?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Choose your path [Re: dorkus]
    #6913568 - 05/14/07 07:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion there's no really a description for "enlightenment" because as soon as we're trying to define it, it turns into religion. I think we all know this story already.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Edited by MushroomTrip (05/14/07 07:44 PM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Choose your path [Re: dblaney]
    #6913646 - 05/14/07 08:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The use of enlightment in my post encompasses nirvana as you define it.
Enlightenment is a brain state. Importantly, why did the practice of
this one gain more value than many others? There is nothing implicit
in the tale that history must've turned out this way, and once again,
there is nothing implicit in "enlightenment" that it says more about
truth, human nature, (fill the blank) than using a flush-toilet until the
large intestine is fully emptied.


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Choose your path [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6913756 - 05/14/07 08:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

About blessedness:
It is clear how much the wise man is capable of, and how much more powerful he is than one who is ignorant and is driven only by lust. For not only is the ignorant man troubled in many ways by external causes, and unable ever to possess true peace of mind, but he also lives as if he knew neither himself, nor God, nor things, and as soon as he ceases to be acted on, he ceases to be. On the other hand, the wise man, insofar as he is considered such, is hardly troubled in spirit, but being, by a certain eternal necessity, conscious of himself, and of God , and of things, he never ceases to be, but always possesses true piece of mind.
If salvation were at hand, and could be found without great effort, how could nearly everyone neglect it? But all things excellent are as difficult as they are rare.
B.Spinoza.

I wonder about “ the wise man, insofar as he is considered such” Absolute truth? Enlightment?


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Choose your path [Re: Recondicom]
    #6914040 - 05/14/07 09:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Your words make me think of Gurdjieff.


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