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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: Icelander]
    #6905359 - 05/12/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, after brain death occurs, Elvis has left the building.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6905371 - 05/12/07 10:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I have had top end doses of every major psychedelic, and I have had several hundreds of trips in my life. I have had the "psychedelic death" type experience, but it is only another manifestation of the dream. Death is the end of the dream. Now, do we awaken...or sleep permanently? There is no telling, but I bet on a permanent dirt nap. To equate an experience you had while alive with death is just being naive. If you died you would not be posting about it. The dream has many permeations that are fascinating, but they are life...not death.




Whatever any of us 'think,' it is only speculation. Like you, I have had very high experiences, some of which are described in Yogic literature as very high samadhis (even asamprajnata samadhi in which there is no reference to an observing personality, but there is radiant awareness). If these states represent some metaphysical 'carrier wave' that our 'individual' conscoiusness 'attunes' itself to, and there is an ecstatic 'Recognition' that this 'Void' or Infinite Awareness has always been 'us' at the truest level, then, in effect, Nirvana, Sat Chit Ananda, Kingdom of God, and whatever else human culture has called the state/place, exists. This, or these 'heavens' are "the farther reaches of human nature," to use Abraham Maslow's expression, which extend into our "space-time continuum," to use Terrence McKenna's expression, and into our high experiences, but which exist in their own right as an ever-present Reality outside of space-time.

In other words, speculation though it may be, deriving both from my experiences and the mystics and gnostics whom I've studied, while our physical elements return to their molecular state, and our psychic constituents return to their own element (perhaps as completely as Buddhist samskaric tendencies, perhaps sometimes as astral ghosts, perhaps in a nightmarish Bardo state of confusion, or perhaps the psyche resolves itself into the higher being, the 'nous' or the 'pneuma'), maybe the higher aspect of ourselves is similar to or co-extensive with the Ground Consciousness which is Infinite. 'Heaven' or 'Nirvana' may then be the ecstatic Recognition, or Realization (as in The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation: or the Method of Realizing Nirvana Through Knowing the Mind) of the Ground Consciousness. Since this ecstatic Realization occurs under the aspect of Eternity [sub specie aeternitatis], it is actually "Eternal Life." Like the motionless image of a body falling into a black hole at the event horizon, this Realization may become 'eternalized' in the Ground Consciousness, which is itself Eternal. The Jewish symbol of the Eternal Light, the Kabbalistic Ain Sof Aur, seem only to be momentary events from our vantage point in space-time, but the moment that we can only comprehend as a temporal moment may be experienced from Eternity - Eternally. Veritable Heaven!

I like to speculate on the mechanics of Eternal Life, which I take on faith - a contemplative attitude which is itself a suspension of thought, allowing pure intuition to dominate. They can't ALL be wrong. They may ALL be right. I have nothing to lose betting on Life Eternal, but everything to gain (seeing as we all die from this physical plane anyway). I am, we are, multidimensional phenomena and we should analyze our constituent souls back to their respective sources. "The unexamined life is not worth living."


"The theory of knowledge is only the last step out of humanity's childhood, out of a world where mind-created figures populated a metaphysical heaven and hell....Despite this inevitable epistemological criticism, however, we have held fast to the religious belief that the organ of faith enables man to know God. The West thus developed a new disease: the conflict between science and religion. The critical philosophy of science became as it were negatively metaphysical - in other words, materialistic - on the basis of an error in judgement; matter was assumed to be a tangible and recognizable reality. Yet this is a thoroughly metaphysical concept hypostatized by uncritical minds. Matter is an hypothesis. When you say 'matter,' you are creating a symbol for something unknown, which may just as well be 'spirit' or anything else; it may even be God. Religious faith, on the other hand, refuses to give up its pre-critical Weltanschauung [World view]."

- C. G. Jung, 'Psychological Commentary' to The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation, pp. xxx-xxxi

Peace.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #6905441 - 05/12/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, after brain death occurs, Elvis has left the building.



And walked into another building.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: mikebart101]
    #6905465 - 05/12/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I doubt psychedelics are really like death from, say, a bullet wound. The feeling of a bullet entering your vital organs or your brain would instantly shock you, you'd probably want to vomit and sweat blood from such extreme stress and then the circulatory system stops. It's likely agonizing pain and complete shock heightened by the most adrenaline you've ever felt your body release in your life.

An acquaintance of mine got his head bashed in with a tire iron a good five or six times, and then proceeded to get up and beat the shit out of the guy before collapsing on top of him, even though his skull was fractured, his ear was ripped off and his brain was showing. He was saying he was surprised he didn't have a heart attack the way such extreme shock felt to his body, yet after a few days near death in the hospital he actually survived and is now back to being an asshole again. When someone beats your skull in, all you can hear is your breath coming in dying gasps, your heart fluttering with uncertainty as to whether it will continue beating with the sudden drop in blood pressure.

I've had some tough times tripping, even visualizing bullets entering my skull, but I doubt tripping is anything like most deaths.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: mikebart101]
    #6905571 - 05/12/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Here's some thoughts from Stanislov Grof...

    Psychosis, caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain due to mental illness or drug ingestion, is much like undergoing an inner death. Some experts literally call it ego death, an inner catastrophe of enormous dimensions. Researchers of persons experiencing hallucinations due to drug use describe psychotic reactions to LSD, such as:

    “an abysmal sense of physical destruction, emotional catastrophe, intellectual defeat, cultural/moral failure, and absolute damnation of transcendental proportions.” Subjects face agony and develop a conviction that they will explode and the entire world will be destroyed . . . in this situation it is extremely important that the sitters (individual guides) repeatedly emphasize the safety of this experience” (Grof, 158)

    The experience of ego death is “the destruction of everything the subject is, possesses, or is attached to.” There is an “expectation of a catastrophe of enormous dimensions,” horrific panic, a fear of disintegration or, more violently, implosion. The patient feels the fate of the entire world depends on their ability to “hold on” (or conversely, to commit suicide).

    Source: Stanislov Grof: Getting Through Psychosis


There were no white lights for me, but I'll never forget the black.



.


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~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6905616 - 05/12/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly. Im not talking about what you physically 'see' so to speak; instead, Im speaking more along the lines of the feelings and emotional insight you feel. That feeling of deep concentrated thought. Enough of the light people. How did you feel?


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So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Offlineleery11
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6905630 - 05/12/07 11:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The sense of self can be shattered into 10 trillion pieces. Shopper. Collector of barbie dolls. Man. Warrior. Hero. Soldier. Doctor. Poet. Lover. Hater. Bearer of Grudges. He with enemies. He of the State. He of the Nation. He of the Planet.

The less one identifies themselves with One, God, Om, Light, Christ, or any personage of divinity, and the more they view themselves as an individual, the more scattered their attention is.

Thusly, in death, in the bardo, they are less likely to recognize the white light as part of themselves, as home, and more likely to grasp at one of the multitudes of psychedelic and dream images. This is what they grasp, this is where they go, they float like a feather into one of the myriad realms of existence based upon their karma.

When one practices meditation, yoga, psychedelic yoga, or anything desired at unison with Source purity, they begin to systematically clean all wrong views from their mind. They no longer think so much in terms of "I" as an individual, because I as an individual is a function of animalistic drives, the lower 3 chakras, posessing, having power over, having dominion over, consuming, and subsequently plays by the rules of consumption...... other, acting in relation to other...... this is where self exists. When infinite divisions of other exist, such as Joe Smith is other and Bob Dylan is other and this tree is other, the individual fails to recognize the God in all people.

This unfortunately is largely indicative of our use of language. We do not call each other brother. We do not place palms over the heart and say Namaste when we greet teacher, brother, stranger, mother, sister, servant, slave, etc..... we give them quirky names, view them wrongly..... and the more we hang out in the circus sideshow, the more we love it, the more it imprints itself in our psyche as the way reality operates.

and so the tv head, the radio head, immersed in the game, immersed in the carnival ride, does not wish to get off. Not wishing to get off, he is not likely to get off in death when offered freedom via merger with light, he wants this and that, and he thinks reality is this and that.

The goal of Buddhism and other practices of yoga is to simply die in this lifetime, as Jesus says, to take on the cross and enter the Kingdom of God, doing so is becoming as an infant again, as a baby and a child again, being completely open and honest and vulnerable.... no longer imprinting ego upon everything, rather, looking deeply at everything as a mirror.

If this death is completely actualized one is already at one with the light while still in physical form and guaranteed to identify with the light behind the projector (nirvana) rather than the projectors infinite forms (samsara). Some people watch TV and think it real, or else, heavily suppress notions of the contrary so they can have a fantasy world. Some people do the same, caught by the myriad sights of craving and lust and desire and therefore not recognizing the light that is projecting all of them.

Ultimately this place is an illusion, as anyone tripping has probably seen. An illusion because of the values we give it only. Corrections have been made, I believe the Baghvadgita does it quite well, telling us thusly that EVERYONE IS GOD and that nothing is not God, attempting to dispell our wrong views, though I have not read it personally.

Anyway

it's just how dreams are. YOu don't have to dream, you can be conscious in deep sleep. Some people are so schizoid in identity that they aren't even aware that they have dreams. When you die you can either dream a new identity in samsara, or you can go into the void, purify completely, and choose willfully and very wisely if you wish to create a new life for the function of serving within the context of the light you have found.

But maybe Santa clause just gives good children presents and bad children coal when they die, who knows.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (05/12/07 11:44 AM)

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 366
Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: leery11]
    #6905666 - 05/12/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

mikebart101: How did you feel?

Like this.


.


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~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6905740 - 05/12/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

This thread may have some more insights for you mikebart: Really Get To Know The Bottom


See also: Ego Death


.


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~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

Edited by spiritualemerg (05/13/07 07:59 AM)

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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6905746 - 05/12/07 12:18 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Thanx for the link


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: mikebart101]
    #6905775 - 05/12/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

You're welcome. Hopefully, something there will resonate for you.

Enjoy your day, mikebart.


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

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Offlinegrebarius
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6906634 - 05/12/07 05:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

If there is any experience that i could somehow relate to death it would be a 20x salvia trip.

Edited by grebarius (05/12/07 05:11 PM)

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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: grebarius]
    #6907599 - 05/12/07 09:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Salvia makes me feel like I have either slipped into a comma or died and that the rest of my life is taking place inside my head or another dimension.


--------------------
So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

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Offlinegrebarius
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: mikebart101]
    #6909030 - 05/13/07 08:28 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ya it feels like you've died and are never coming back. I don't really find salvia too enjoyable but im glad i've experienced it a few times.

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 366
Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: grebarius]
    #6909135 - 05/13/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I'm very curious as to what this experience of "dying" while under the influence is like. I don't have any experience with it, yet some of the reports I've read bear a strong similarity to my own experience. Yet, it doesn't seem to have the same impact. I could be wrong but it's only because I'm lacking insight into what happens for you after the experience. When the weekend trip is over and Monday morning rolls back around, is it over? Does it change you and if so, in what manner?



.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

Edited by spiritualemerg (05/15/07 06:40 AM)

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Actual Death similar to Tripping [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6909246 - 05/13/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

To clarify...

    The initial disordered state that I am describing contains two distinct elements. The first is an experience of dying or of having already died, which symbolizes a dissolution of the accustomed self. The second element, closely related to the first, is a vision of the death of the world. In an acute psychosis individuals undergo a profound reorganization of the self, effected by a thoroughgoing reintegration through utter disintegration. Life cannot be repaired, it can only be re-created by returning to the sources. And the 'source of sources' is the prodigious outpouring of energy, life and the fecundity that occured at the Creation of the World.

    Since the acute episode of visionary turmoil can have, along with its tormenting aspect, some ecstatic features, I will enlarge on the basic Dionysian principle that the exuberance of vital aliveness is born out of the realm of death. This is the miraculous revelation at the heart of the famous Dionysian rites, the Eleusinian mysteries.

    Now this disturbing information is, in our culture, very unwelcome news. Here ecstasy is desirable as long as it is easy to attain. Yet, in truth, to have access to this state the price of admission is to take full account of the role of death. This is a difficult point, for we seem to find ourselves firmly biased against suffering and death as the ultimate enemy, dark and sinister, to whom we give no quarter and show no tolerance. You might say suffering and death are on an equal footing with madness in this respect.

    We have seen that the growth process of the psyche, on the other hand, sees all this quite differently. According to the psyche's purposes, in order to break out of the security of solid consensus and convention, one must encounter the experience of the death process in psychic depth, and also at the same time the dissolution of the familiar, accustomed worldview. Though all this demand might seem at first glance overly drastic, it consists actually of the death of the familiar self-image and the destruction of the world image to make room for the self regeneration of each. [Source]


Is this happening in your experience? Is your "world view" destroyed in conjunction with your self-annhilation?




.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

Edited by spiritualemerg (05/13/07 08:13 PM)

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