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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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 Lying 
#6903832 - 05/11/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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How could one trust the evaluation of oneself by another if they have repeatedly caught them in deliberate lying, even to the point that they have brought others to lie for them?
Let's expand upon this hypothetical even further, for a second. Propose that you were well aware that they were lying from the beginning, and they continued to incriminate themselves further even as you make it clear that you are well aware, before finally conceding that they deliberately misrepresented the truth? If the person thought that they could pull one over on you, agansit the honest word of a true friend of many years, how could one even begin to think that their evaluation and judgement as to one's own integrity has any basis?
Should one even concern oneself with this evaluation and judgement? Typically I would think that one would take into consideration any perspective of another on one's nature in order to determine if it is an accurate representation of aspects of oneself. Clearly, however, when someone deliberately lies to another in such a manner, and specifically and knowingly misrepresents other aspects of situations that have transpired, from a motivation not concerned with mutual understanding but of passing emotional judgement, then one should not be concerned with what they have to say, as they have demonstrated that they are not concerned with accurate representation of reality.
What does everyone think on this? If someone will specifically lie in order to maintain one's sense of position in a discussion, then it matters not who they think upholds integrity.
Water. Duck. Back. Simple. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05 
Posts: 11,089
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Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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 Re: Lying [Re: Veritas]
#6903978 - 05/11/07 09:07 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yet humans are not stopped clocks, and reality is not a continual cycle on loop. A liar might be accurate on occasion but when one has no other information with which to determine the nature of reality, then their perspective is not worth consideration, as it is resultant from a system that demonstrates a deliberate lack of integrity. It is simply baseless speculation not deserving the benefit of the doubt.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Does a lack of integrity necessarily equate to a lack of perspective and/or insight?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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For some, it is a strategy they use in life.... 
It only becomes a "crime" if it is realized by the receiving party....
If it is a close friend, and their normal track record of behaviour is spotted with lying, then you will never truly know what their/the "truth" is....
However....
If someone is saying something you don't want to hear, you will also find ways to discredit it, or give it less relevance....
If this person would be agreeable with whatever evaluation or judgment you are talking about, would lying still be an issue for you....?
Either way, you may be trying to make yourself feel better by justifying a means to make what you didn't like go away....
The ego fighting to keep it's head above water....?
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry.... 
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Lying [Re: Veritas]
#6904312 - 05/11/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Does a lack of integrity necessarily equate to a lack of perspective and/or insight?
Yes, it does. Of course, we could not know if the individual who has chosen to deliberately lie has demonstrated a lack of integrity, because it is quite possible that they did not have a sense of integrity regarding honesty and truth in the first place.  Edit: Was referring to a disregard of one's projected integrity, rather than a simple lack of integrity, realizing that the question simply pertained to a lack of integrity.
I'm not proposing that a lack of integrity implies that one is not capable of an accurate representation of reality in some respects, simply that their perspective cannot be held on its own as true, especially when it provides no substantiation for the claims it presents.
It was also a question of why one should contemplate the perspective another provides when one has displayed no interest in presenting a truthful perspective to one in the first place? My answer is that one shouldn't. What is your answer? Isn't it simply an unskillful consumption of time, especially when there are those who do not seek to pass judgement and those who will be honest?
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (05/11/07 10:35 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
However....
If someone is saying something you don't want to hear, you will also find ways to discredit it, or give it less relevance....
Yes, but, for myself, the ways that I would find would directly deal with the specifics of the circumstance and what could be known regarding it. As I just mentioned in my last reply, a lack of integrity does not necessitate that a perspective is not a valid interpretation, but that isn't what my post was addressing. This thread is discussion regarding a hypothetical situation, on an ideaological level, and if it were a discussion regarding a similar, specific circumstance (which, subsequently, would not be permitted for discussion in this forum), then what is being said would be directly challenged and addressed in a manner consistent of what is known and evidenced regarding the circumstance.
Quote:
If this person would be agreeable with whatever evaluation or judgment you are talking about, would lying still be an issue for you....?
Of course it would. Whether or not it would be an issue for one is a question of one's own integrity. Personally, the fact that they deliberately tried to mislead you is something that could not be shrugged off, regardless of what it is that they wished for you to buy.
You are basically asking if an individual was an ass-kissing yes-man, would the fact that you knew they were filling you full of bullshit be an issue, and my response would be, yes, it would still be an issue. You are asking if one would deliberately trust someone when they specifically display that they cannot be trusted to be honest in discussion, and, for myself, the answer is obvious, as I am committed to understanding the nature of reality as it is - precisely why one deliberately, consciously lying to another about the nature of reality is seen as a very regressive act by myself. 
Quote:
Either way, you may be trying to make yourself feel better by justifying a means to make what you didn't like go away....
The ego fighting to keep it's head above water....?
Offering one's perspective on a phenomenon is not an an act of trying to make something go away. How would bringing attention to such an act serve to sort of shy focus and attention away from the act, exactly? I am simply interested in the matter on an ideaological level, which is precisely why it has been proposed for discussion in such a manner by myself. I am genuinely interested in what people would think regarding this hypothetical situation.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Integrity is something very tricky regarding some people. I say tricky exactly because of the examples you pointed out.
Those who chose to fake and play the integrity card often seem to be the most credible because, since they don't have any common sense they're able to fake and lie in one's face no matter what and still have the ability to come out as victims. Some call it a talent, other call in a survival instinct. I call it monkey business. If one happens to watch Discovery channel and see some patterns of behaviour one will be able to make the necessary connections and see the similarities.
I've learned that people who try any price try to appear full of candor of wisdom are just rotten apples with a new glow on the surface. Sadly one has to get fooled once or a few times before one will be able to make the distinction between real people and fake people.
Nevertheless I think it's a valuable lesson that life gives. All in all, those who assume the integrity role when in fact they lack of any must be really sad people since all they do is just begging for attention.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Pandurn
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Well, perhaps such people understand certain concepts on an ideaological level but have not fully integrated them into their experience of reality and their operational processes. This is perhaps why integrity would not shine through, as integrity implies a wholeness and a state of soundness, an adherence to specific principles and ideas. If someone's view of reality is fragmented and not internalized, then there is no integrity as there is no state of wholeness or equilibrium.
Integrity is not a structure of code and conduct but a natural result of one's internal state, of one's present existance. If lying is within one's principles then there has been no lack of integrity when one lies. I personally could not project my own sense of integrity upon others, and could not question their lack of integrity, as maybe lying is simply one of their principles.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Quote:
I'm not proposing that a lack of integrity implies that one is not capable of an accurate representation of reality in some respects, simply that their perspective cannot be held on its own as true, especially when it provides no substantiation for the claims it presents.
I'd go a little further with your idea and tell you that I've seen cases where people fake so much that they show signs of delusion. You know that the best orators and story tellers and so good that they end up by being unable to make the distinction between their identity and the stories they tell. It's like they fuse. This is the "man behind the myth" syndrome.
There are people who seem and maybe are well read and have a good culture but lack of personality and then when one had a conversation with them, they don't tell one their opinions anymore, no, they just assume the idea of the book they read or movies they have seen, add a little salt and pepper to add a new thrill and there it goes.
So it is possible in some cases, that people who want to seem more then they are to reach a point where they believe their own lies. It's a well know fact that the best liars are those who manage to lie to themselves first.
Quote:
It was also a question of why one should contemplate the perspective another provides when one has displayed no interest in presenting a truthful perspective to one in the first place? My answer is that one shouldn't. What is your answer? Isn't it simply an unskillful consumption of time, especially when there are those who do not seek to pass judgment and those who will be honest?
Maybe just because they've reached that point where they're unable to keep their lucidity and mix fiction with reality while claiming out loud that their mind is very lucid
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
Sadly one has to get fooled once or a few times before one will be able to make the distinction between real people and fake people.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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I like your answers....  
Just wanted to poke at the hypothetical situation from different unexpected angles and velocities, then observe.... 
I sometimes tell "white lies" to people when I believe that I "need" to,
more in the fact of leaving out details in my answers....
If someone at work asks me what I did the night before, I sure as hell can't reply with the truth -
that I had gotten stoned and jammed out on my guitar for a few hours....!?
  
Does this mean that I lack integrity, for not telling the absolute truth....?
In the far reaches of the extreme contrast between black and white, I am lying....
No matter how innocent and harmless it may seem in context, based on your answers, I would lack a certain integrity....
Someone that is like minded with WHY I chose to use a lie could most likely understand with the reasons and the means....
Someone that is NOT like minded with the context above, would make a much bigger deal out of my "little white lie"....
Where do you draw the lines.....?
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
It was also a question of why one should contemplate the perspective another provides when one has displayed no interest in presenting a truthful perspective to one in the first place?
Why should one contemplate the perspective presented by anyone? It is certainly worthwhile to consider the source, but this does not mean automatically discounting any and all input based upon isolated incidents of dishonesty.
My mother likes to say "what other people think of me is none of my business." I think that this POV has merit, and yet I have (on occasion) gained some insight into my behavior from the constructive criticism I've received from others.
So, it could be that no one has anything to say about who you are that you need to take into account. It could be that only meticulously honest people should be consulted for an outsider's perspective on one's behavior. Or it could be worth your time to consider the perspective presented by the one who you've judged as lacking integrity (and therefore, according to your judgment, insight.)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Those "white lies" can be harmless and don't necessarily mean that one lacks of integrity (in my opinion)
Quote:
Where do you draw the lines.....?
On more important lies "brown lies" or "black lies" or even "white lies" when one comes to you and tells you hey I have all the proves that you didn't get stoned and jammed your guitar and you still say, no matter what that you did. And come up with new fantastic stories about why could the one who caught you lying is wrong. Agreed or not? 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
On more important lies "brown lies" or "black lies" or even "white lies" when one comes to you and tells you hey I have all the proves that you didn't get stoned and jammed your guitar and you still say, no matter what that you did. And come up with new fantastic stories about why could the one who caught you lying is wrong. Agreed or not?
Honestly, I can't agree nor disagree.... Because.....
I actually have no freakin clue what you just said....!?  
Can you re-phrase the question....?
>^;;^<
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Honestly, I can't agree nor disagree.... Because.....
I actually have no freakin clue what you just said....!?
Can you re-phrase the question....?
>^;;^<
When one insists on lying even when he's caught and finds whatever reasons to justify him/herself, and/or tries to play the victim, makes other lie for him/her... you know stuff like that.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Mycomyth
Demented Avenger
Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 341
Loc: At the crux of the matter...
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
How could one trust the evaluation of oneself by another if they have repeatedly caught them in deliberate lying, even to the point that they have brought others to lie for them?
Let's expand upon this hypothetical even further, for a second. Propose that you were well aware that they were lying from the beginning, and they continued to incriminate themselves further even as you make it clear that you are well aware, before finally conceding that they deliberately misrepresented the truth? If the person thought that they could pull one over on you, agansit the honest word of a true friend of many years, how could one even begin to think that their evaluation and judgement as to one's own integrity has any basis?
Should one even concern oneself with this evaluation and judgement? Typically I would think that one would take into consideration any perspective of another on one's nature in order to determine if it is an accurate representation of aspects of oneself. Clearly, however, when someone deliberately lies to another in such a manner, and specifically and knowingly misrepresents other aspects of situations that have transpired, from a motivation not concerned with mutual understanding but of passing emotional judgement, then one should not be concerned with what they have to say, as they have demonstrated that they are not concerned with accurate representation of reality.
What does everyone think on this? If someone will specifically lie in order to maintain one's sense of position in a discussion, then it matters not who they think upholds integrity.
Water. Duck. Back. Simple.
This speaks to me.
How could you so accurately desribe a situation in the life of my Yin and I (yes, she is my Yin, and I her Yang. We've been blessed in an uncommon way to have found each other.), having never known us?
I only wish it was as simple as Water, Duck, Back. Problem is, the player is blood, and holds power because of it. Power that my Yin hasn't the ability to take away from the player, as I do. You see, I gave the power the player held freely, and can take it away at will, and have done so. But, maternal bonds bind the power of my Yin, and those bonds are strong. I shore up the will of my Yin as best as a simple mud-man can, but sometimes the weight is great near to the point of breaking.
The player is a spiteful one who would go to any lengths to garner sympathy to its imagined plight. This has caused no end of grief to my Yin and I. Two beautiful lights were taken away from us by the player, and it is forging my Yin and I in The Crucible.
Though we strive to pass this place of grief, the road is hard, and littered with stones to cut the feet of the traveller. Yet, we travel. And, I believe the road is getting easier just because of the doing. Stones get trampled to pebbles, and pebbles to dust, same as it ever was.
Thank you for being, Fireworks God! Much love goes out to you from my Yin and I.
Ever Travelling,
Mycomyth
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Lying [Re: Veritas]
#6905443 - 05/12/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Why should one contemplate the perspective presented by anyone? It is certainly worthwhile to consider the source, but this does not mean automatically discounting any and all input based upon isolated incidents of dishonesty.
I'm not referring to discounting all input; however, any input in which one's integrity is questioned, yet the individual questioning it has demonstrated that they personally hold no sense of integrity in accurate representation of reality, should not be considered to be an accurate representation of reality, especially when one could easily demonstrate that their specific conclusions do not represent the reality of the situation anyways.
Anyone who demonstrates that their words have no merit has demonstrated that lying for them is not simply an "isolated incident". It is demonstrative of the fact that they do not actually consider oneself to be an individual worthy of honesty, which, in itself, is reason enough to not consider their perspective any further, especially when there are others who propose similar perspectives that have not been ensared in deliberate lies.
Quote:
My mother likes to say "what other people think of me is none of my business." I think that this POV has merit, and yet I have (on occasion) gained some insight into my behavior from the constructive criticism I've received from others.
Most certainly. All criticism is constructive, even if the individual producing it was not concerned with being constructive or with honestly approaching the discussion thereof. It still doesn't mean that the criticism has any relevance to reality, but that is not of concern pertaining to these ideas. Anyone who deliberately misrepresents the nature of a situation to oneself does not deserve to have their criticism regarding oneself considered, in my personal opinion.
Quote:
So, it could be that no one has anything to say about who you are that you need to take into account.
Clearly.
Quote:
It could be that only meticulously honest people should be consulted for an outsider's perspective on one's behavior. Or it could be worth your time to consider the perspective presented by the one who you've judged as lacking integrity (and therefore, according to your judgment, insight.)
Clearly all perspective is considered as it is presented, but it is a question of whether or not they are simply being dishonest once more, instead of proposing an accurate representation of what they consider to be the nature of the circumstance. The perspective itself can be validated or refuted by its own right, in comparison to the actuality of the events.
It isn't a question of being meticulously honest, it is a question of deliberately lying in face of assertions that one already knows it isn't true. It is this act that is being questioned, and, subsequently, the question as to whether or not the individual ever is honest about their perspective on matters - not whether or not the perspective they propose is an accurate representation of reality.
I am asking, if this hypothetical situation was experienced by everyone, could everyone ever consider the outlined individual to be honest in proposing their perspective? My guess is no, especially when they take further steps to misrepresent actualities of events.
Of course, we can choose who we relate and interact with and this is probably the main question. Why should one seek to be understood by those who deliberately attempt to mislead you when there are people in this world who are honest and actually care?
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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I have 6 rules on the chalk board in my counseling room. Number 1 is "Tell the truth." Above the numbered rules, I have, and I'm paraprhasing, the following:
'Mental Health is about being real, it is based on Reality. Reality, what is Real, is the Truth. If you lie, you are distorting the truth, twisting reality. The more you lie, the more you twist reality, the more mentally ill you become.'
I have had students who are known to their peers as 'pathological [sick-minded] liars.' One particularly sick girl, cut all her hair off and told 3 or 4 versions of why it was cut off: 1) she was donating it to make wigs for cancer-treated children, 2) she was sent to a Sheriff's ranch and it was punishment, 3) she wanted to, 4) whatever. When I asked her, she registered momentary confusion which indicated that she may well have forgotten the actual reason momentarily! This girl had lied about her age and said she was 15 when in fact she was 11. She had then begun to engage in oral sex with an overaged lesbian middle school girl (17 in 8th grade!). This act, if discovered, could have put the older girl in jail for years (sex with someone under 12 is a capital offense in my county). The younger girl got pregnant and stalked the boy who fathered the pregnancy. She aborted, only to get pregnant again the following year. She was probably Borderline Personality Disordered, with Antisocial features, but too young for a real diagnosis. Bottom line is that she was one of the biggest juvenile liars I ever met and her lies were creating real havoc.
I routinely advise people of all ages that lying is a huge Red Flag for psychopathologies of the worst kinds, especially Antisocial Personality Disorder which can manifest as lying alone or advance to other dishonest behaviors like destruction of property, theft, violence and all the way up to the top end of sociopathy: serial killers, necrophiles, necrophages! I always have my bullshit detectors on, but intentional lying means to me avoid social contact, and be cautious of criminality because of a severely compromised moral development.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/12/07 07:13 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
Red Fag
Oh, leave those communist homosexuals alone!
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