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 Disco Cat
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 "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" 
#6898104 - 05/10/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11497296/
Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies
Russian president makes blunt, vague references criticizing unilateralism
MOSCOW - Who was President Vladimir Putin talking about when he said the world faces threats to peace like those that led to World War II?
Putin’s statement at a Victory Day parade on Red Square on Wednesday was artfully phrased to be both blunt and vague — but political observers have little doubt he was criticizing the United States for “disrespect for human life, claims to global exclusiveness and dictate, just as it was in the time of the Third Reich.”
While Putin didn’t name any particular country in the speech marking the 1945 defeat of Nazi Germany, the remarks echoed his increasingly strong criticism of the perceived U.S. domination in global affairs.
Political analysts close to the Kremlin say that Putin referred to the United States in his remarks, expressing Russia’s dismay at what it views as U.S. unilateralism in world affairs and disrespect for other countries’ interests.
“Hitler was striving for global domination, and the United States is striving for global domination now,” Sergei Markov, the Kremlin-connected head of the Moscow-based Institute for Political Research told The Associated Press. “Hitler thought he was above the League of Nations, and the United States thinks it is above the United Nations. Their action is similar.”
Relations between Russia and the United States have become increasingly tense amid U.S. criticism of the Kremlin for rolling back on democracy and Moscow’s complaints against U.S. plans to deploy missile defense sites in Europe close to its western borders. Moscow also frequently accuses Washington of meddling in what it considers its home turf by trying to take other ex-Soviet nations away from its orbit.
Markov said that while Putin sought to soften his remarks by avoiding a direct reference to the United States, he was undoubtedly was aiming at Washington. “Only the United States now is claiming global exclusiveness,” Markov said.
‘Claims to global exclusiveness’
Shortly after his speech at the parade, Putin told veterans at a Kremlin reception that World War II showed “where militarist ambitions, ethnic intolerance and any attempts to recarve the globe are leading to.”
Markov saw that as another veiled reference to the United States.
“After the Cold War ended, the United States has initiated a new arms race,” fueling nuclear ambitions of many nations worldwide, he said.
“If a nation doesn’t have nuclear weapons, it risks being bombed like Yugoslavia or Iraq,” he said. “And if it does have nuclear weapons like North Korea, it faces no such threat.”
Gleb Pavlovsky, another political analyst with close Kremlin connections, said that Putin’s remarks reflected his “concern about the spreading of unilateralist approaches to global affairs.”
“The United States is trying to dominate the world ... and Russia takes a stance against such hegemony,” Pavlovsky said.
He added, however, that Putin was not referring exclusively to the United States when he mentioned a contempt for human life and claims at global domination, but also forces behind international terrorism and extremism.
“He was also referring to nations that support Islamic fundamentalism when he talked about claims to global exclusiveness,” Pavlovsky said.
Putin’s remarks reflect an increasingly assertive posture by Russia, which has regained its economic muscle thanks to a rising tide of oil revenue and sought to rebuild its military might eroded in the post-Soviet industrial demise.
Putin shocked Western leaders in February when he spoke at a security conference in Germany, bluntly accusing the U.S. of trying to force other nations to conform to its standards and warned that Russia would strongly retaliate to the deployment of the U.S. missile defense sites in Poland and the Czech Republic.
‘A serious dialogue’
In a state of the nation address last month, Putin called for a Russian moratorium on observance of the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, which limits the number of aircraft, tanks and other non-nuclear heavy weapons around the continent, saying that NATO members’ refusal to ratify an amended version of the pact hurt Russia’s security interests.
Putin also threatened to pull out of the treaty altogether unless talks with NATO members yielded satisfactory results, and some Russian generals warned that Moscow could also opt out of a Cold War-era treaty with the United States banning intermediate-range missiles.
Russia’s military chief of staff has also said Russia could target elements of the missile defense system if it is deployed in Poland and the Czech Republic.
While Putin’s speech Wednesday sounded like another salvo in a new Cold War, Markov insisted that it was merely another attempt by the Russian leader to persuade the United States to reckon with Russia’s interests.
“It’s an attempt to launch a serious dialogue,” Markov said.
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 lonestar2004
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Disco Cat]
#6898206 - 05/10/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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"We'll show them a real holocaust, mahmoud!"
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
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RogerRabbit
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: lonestar2004]
#6899819 - 05/10/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Relations between Russia and the United States have become increasingly tense amid U.S. criticism of the Kremlin for rolling back on democracy
Let's see; In the US, habeas corpus has been suspended, warrantless wiretaps and searches are the norm, people can be held forever without charge or access to the courts, if charged with a crime or being a 'terrorist' you're guilty until proved innocent, and Bush started a war over his family's oil profits based on outright lies and deception. Then he dares to accuse Russia of rolling back democracy? Holy shit batman. No wonder Putin isn't giving in. He's former KGB and no pussy. He also happens to control enough nukes to melt Washington DC in about thirty seconds.
RR
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6900361 - 05/11/07 12:36 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Very true. The US gov't whined loudly over Russian police using force to break up a banned protest in Moscow, then 2 weeks later we have all these reports and videos of police over-using force at that immigration protest in Los Angelos. It's far beyond hypocrisy.
Apparently the leader for the Moscow protest, Gary Kasparov, is in pretty deep with the neo-cons and was "a member of the neo-con Center for Security Policy," and is a "'contributing editor' to the Wall Street Journal."
As Putin has said many times, the US is deliberately interfering in Russian domestic affairs, trying to destabalize them keep them weak.
Quote:
Russian Protests: The Deleted Scenes
The major Western media has yet to report Kasparov's role in the Center for Security Policy. And the organization has done its best to air-brush Kasparov's membership from its history. Kasparov's name no longer appears on the CSP's website, although if you look through wikipedia, you'll find the cached web pages that used to be up. Why would they try to erase the past?
One reason why Kasparov's name was removed has to do with conflict of interest. After last weekend's protest, not only did the Wall Street Journal shake its indignant fist at Putin's authoritarianism on behalf of its own contributing editor, but the Washington Times and other outlets printed an equally damning, pro-Kasparov piece by none other than Frank Gaffney, the Center for Security Policy's founder. Neither Gaffney nor the Washington Times mentioned his links to Kasparov.
Edited by Disco Cat (05/11/07 12:55 AM)
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Economist
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Disco Cat]
#6900657 - 05/11/07 04:16 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Am I the only one who's sick of these ridiculous comparisons between President Bush and the Nazi regime?
Not only is it grossly inaccurate (I'll get to that in a bit) it sounds childish and ignorant. Like when an 8-year-old informs his 3rd grade teacher that having a book report due in 2 days instead of a week is "just like Hitler!"
Let's compare Bush and the Nazi regime, and for the sake of argument, let's assume the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE scenarios about every one of Bush's motives.
Case for war in Afghanistan:
Take action against the Taliban to cover Bush's ass for ignoring the threat of Osama Bin Laden until it was too late and 9/11 happened.
Case for Nazi Germany Invading Czechoslovakia:
Annex lands that included German speaking peoples, evict minorities from lands that should belong to Germans
Case for war in Iraq:
Make profits for Bush's friends in the defense industry, garner additional oil profits
Case for Nazi Germany Invading Poland:
In addition to pushing minorities out of the "German Corridor" and in particular out of the "Free City of Danzig" the goal was also to secure "Lebensraum" or "Living Space" i.e. to gain territory
Limitations of American Freedoms under Bush:
NON-CITIZENS now able to be jailed on suspicion of terrorism without trial, trial by military tribunal for non-citizens, allows torture as a method of gathering evidence from non-citizens however evidence cannot be entered at trial
Limitations of German Freedoms under the Nazi Regime:
Forced conscription, elimination of citizenship status for entire categories of citizens, extermination of susbsets of former citizens, suspension of private property rights and introduction of severe economic controls (note: not just wartime rationing, the controls began before hand in order to secure the necessary military build-up to get things going), suspension of the vote, elimination of trials in favor of a combination of arbitrary imprisonment and justice by mob-violence, elimination of any system for redress of public grievances, suspension of any protections of free speech
As is pretty obvious, the two do not even roughly equate.
Of course there are many authoritarian regimes which Bush would compare favorably with. Personally I think the best comparison would be George II of England. George II had similar bouts with Parliament over Casus Belli, suspended freedoms to rig Parliamentary Elections, and instituted rule in India by the East India Company. But most people don't even know the difference between Georges's I-III, so I guess this doesn't quite "grab the imagination" the way that a whining, disgustingly ignorant, comparison with Hitler does...
Interesting notes:
Kruschev, former leader of Russia, stood before the UN, took of his shoe, and loudly declared that he would crush the US. 40 years later, we've yet to hear an apology. For that reason alone, Putin should be backing off.
Furthermore, for anyone who isn't convinced that Bush is quite literally nothing like Hitler, consider this: The US is quite a bit LESS facist (though decidedly more socialist) today that it was a century earlier.
Look up the Espionage Act of WWI, and the associated cases of Schenck v US and Abrams v US. In the former, Schenck printed a pamphlet that stated it was wrong to institute a draft to fight WWI. For this he was jailed, and the Supreme Court upheld his conviction. Abrams, likewise, printed a pamphlet that opposed landing troops to fight the Bolshevics as a side theatre of WWI. He was likewise jailed, and the Supreme Court upheld his conviction.
Indeed, Alex Jones wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in the US in 1918, but today he is allowed a website, radio broadcasts, etc.
So much for facist comparisons...
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Redstorm
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6901328 - 05/11/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Habeas corpus isn't suspended.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Redstorm]
#6901429 - 05/11/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes it is, unless you buy into the 'gitmo isn't the US' line. Most people, I included, belive that terrority under US control, should be under US law. Furthermore, most of the people sent there were fighting the US forces because they were in their country. That's not terrorism, but self defence. I make no excuses for the real terrorists, I'd kill one myself in a NY second, but people held under US control, and the entities that hold them should be subject to US law.
RR
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Seuss
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6901481 - 05/11/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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> Most people, I included, belive that terrority under US control, should be under US law.
Stay away from customs then... or you will be in for a very rude awakening, even if you are a US citizen, inside of the US borders...
I'm torn on Gitmo... I certainly don't like it, but I don't know that I can come up with a better solution. The problem is that we have non-US-citizens that were captured by the US-military, fighting the US-military on foreign soil, out of uniform (thus not protected by the rules of war). These people are not inherently protected by the US constitution, nor are they protected by the Geneva Conventions (prisoners of war). I certainly feel they deserve due process, but I don't know how to provide it...
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EsKregg
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Seuss]
#6902320 - 05/11/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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The U.S. is still fairly fascist.
Benito said fascism is cooperation between corporations and government.
Bush, Cheney and Condo were all huge into the oil industry prior to getting into government. Then they started a war for oil profit in Iraq. There is an oil tanker out there named the Condoleeza.
Oil companies are turning out the biggest profits ever.
It doesn't matter what one calls the system, basically it's not good.
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TAO
but really, fish noodles
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Disco Cat]
#6903787 - 05/11/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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putin may not be in much of a position to criticize another govt as being "fascist".. but that definitely doesnt mean hes' wrong either.. especially when its king george...
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zorbman
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Disco Cat]
#6904704 - 05/12/07 12:26 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Putin is not the one to make the comparison but we are headed in that direction with the policies of the Bush crew.
Empire abroad with republic at home?
Ask the Roman Empire how that worked out.
It cannot last.
The two are mutually exclusive.
A long war such as the consciously-designed unending "War on Terror" will fatally wound our republic. The founding fathers knew this:
"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.
In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended. * Its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force of the people.
The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war . . . and in the degeneracy of manners and morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
- James Madison, April 20, 1795
I am going to repeat the last sentence, "No nation [can] preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
Please note that this conflict is being hyped as a civilization-threatening war which will last generations.
We need to do as Britain did in the early part of the 20th century. They made a conscious decision to ditch the empire in order to keep democracy at home. We appear to be headed in the opposite direction for now. I expect a further reigning-in of freedoms for citizens as America strains to exert global control to maintain its way of life.
As the sinister and disgusting Dick Cheney has said, "The American way of life is non-negotiable."
Think about that.
*Note Dick Cheney's emphasis on executive power and discretion. This article is a real eye-opener:
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200602160841.asp
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Edited by zorbman (05/12/07 03:12 AM)
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malcom43
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: zorbman]
#6906138 - 05/12/07 02:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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While we may be "heading in that direction", we're not there, and I'm with Economist on this. While you can compare many things, good and bad, with an evil like the Nazis', that doesn't mean they equate in even the roughest terms, nor does it mean that its a good analogy.
When you make even a valid analogy between a universally condemned group and one thats not, it raises my suspicious that someone's trying to fool people. There are parts of US policy that need to change, but that doesn't make us "like the nazi's" in any way people would commonly consider the phrase to mean.
BTW. Habeas Corpus has never applied to wartime prisoners, the only difference is that there is no convievable end to this "war on terror". Yeah its a crock bush cooked up, but lets keep things accurate, foreigners captured and held abroad during wartime have never enjoyed habeas rights, to my knowledge.
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Teragon
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: malcom43]
#6908521 - 05/13/07 02:55 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
malcom43 said:
BTW. Habeas Corpus has never applied to wartime prisoners, the only difference is that there is no convievable end to this "war on terror". Yeah its a crock bush cooked up, but lets keep things accurate, foreigners captured and held abroad during wartime have never enjoyed habeas rights, to my knowledge.
yea, but the difference now is-
you can be declared a terrorist (wartime prisoner) via the enemy combatant clause. normal american citizens. if the government deems you a terrorist (which, btw- there are NO criteria for. NONE! ) you lose a bunch of fundamental liberties, normally provided by the constitution. the fact that this law is on the books, is absolutely ridiculous. it spits right in the face of the constitution.
if you can't see that the American govt. has introduced a HUGE loophole around the constitution (using their own form of terrorism- fear and national security)- then you my friend(s), are going along with their plan splendidly. police state here you come.
i say, good for Putin. someone's gotta say something, the US is getting out of fucking control. i bailed on that mess for good.
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Hank, FTW
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Disco Cat]
#6908586 - 05/13/07 03:39 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Like it or not, Russia is a rising power, with even more powerful allies. Another enemy of the USA is another step to global instability that seems to be gripping our world. Looking at the US from the outside leads me to believe it is a country increasingly under alien control(corporate leaders). It seems like it is only a matter of time before power shifts, then who knows.
Maybe shit will work itself out, but I am losing faith by the day.
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malcom43
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Teragon]
#6908603 - 05/13/07 03:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
yea, but the difference now is-
you can be declared a terrorist (wartime prisoner) via the enemy combatant clause. normal american citizens
News to me, name a case where an American was seized by the bush administration and denied habeas protection?
Padilla was indicted before the habeas issue reached the supreme court, and the court's refusal to hear suits from other detainees was only because they had not been tried yet. Padilla did bring a habeas suit, and it was not found to be barred on appeal, even though his district court win was reversed. The supreme court explicitly said they would entertain new gitmo petitions later if necessary.
Besides, the Japanese internment some 50ish years ago was wider in scale and more invasive. Where Padilla did appear to be a traitor, there was no evidence the particular japs rounded up were acting outside of our country's interests.
This is not a new evil.
Edited by malcom43 (05/13/07 03:54 AM)
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Teragon
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: malcom43]
#6908610 - 05/13/07 03:52 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm just saying that the law exists. Doesn't mean they've acted on it...yet.
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malcom43
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Teragon]
#6908615 - 05/13/07 03:57 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, but I don't think the law exists. Even if you take up arms against america in a foreign theater, you are still required to be prosecuted as normal. The gitmo people shouldn't be there still without trial, but that's a far cry from imprisoning American's under similar circumstances.
While it is indeed worrisome that bush is claiming powers he doesn't have a basis for, thankfully, that isn't the same thing as him actually having them. And since the same thing, in much worse ways, happened with the japs, you can't say this is brand new.
The same evils keep popping up again because enough judges don't care, and the populous is ignorant- or naive.
Edited by malcom43 (05/13/07 04:05 AM)
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Teragon
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: malcom43]
#6908631 - 05/13/07 04:23 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's true, it's a different story considering they aren't truly enforcing them, atleast when it comes to true american citizens.
But it's scary to think that they could without much legal recourse.
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Economist
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: Teragon]
#6910144 - 05/13/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Teragon said:
I'm just saying that the law exists. Doesn't mean they've acted on it...yet.
I don't even think the law exists.
Looking at the text of the Military Commissions Act (available here: http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/PL-109-366.pdf ) the part dealing with habeas corpus specifically states:
Quote:
‘‘(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination. ‘‘(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.’’.
Note the repeated use of the word "alien".
Furthermore, aside from political posturing by elected representatives, no American jurist, and certainly no member of the judiciary, has ever suggested that the military commissions act could be interpreted to apply to citizens.
The Supreme Court's own willingness to hear cases brought forward by citizens (as malcom has already pointed out in this thread) suggests that they themselves believe the act only applies to aliens.
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Annapurna1
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Re: "Putin speech appears to link U.S., Nazi policies" [Re: malcom43]
#6910274 - 05/13/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
malcom43 said:
While we may be "heading in that direction", we're not there, and I'm with Economist on this. While you can compare many things, good and bad, with an evil like the Nazis', that doesn't mean they equate in even the roughest terms, nor does it mean that its a good analogy.
even if we havent reached that point yet...there are still such things as the ratchet effect and the slippery slope ..the ratchet effect means that that road is a one-way street.. and the slippery slope means that the next step down the road is always larger than the last one..irregardless of any delays between steps...
Quote:
When you make even a valid analogy between a universally condemned group and one thats not, it raises my suspicious that someone's trying to fool people. There are parts of US policy that need to change, but that doesn't make us "like the nazi's" in any way people would commonly consider the phrase to mean.
an exhaustive comparison between govts is beyond the scope of this thread...but IMAO..guantanamo..abu ghraib..and the salt pit are very close to what is commonly understood as nazi-like behaviour.. and might even be worse since theres no left-hand queue...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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