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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: StickyWater]
    #6891017 - 05/08/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

On the one hand StickyWater, I'm responding to you with the assumption that you fall into the class of "an ordinary person". Namely, someone who has never encountered someone considered to be schizohrenic.

On the other hand, you don't fall into that class because you're someone who has. What's more, you actually see the human being there and that sets you very much apart from most people who respond with fear, false perception, stigma and judgement.


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

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Anonymous #1

Re: Psychiatry the fraud *DELETED* [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6891771 - 05/09/07 12:12 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by Anonymous (06/11/17 11:55 AM)

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #6891819 - 05/09/07 12:30 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

pB0t BTW I don't think these debate threads are appropriate for a forum where people are trying to get help and advice. Should be moved IMO.

Moved where? To a place where people aren't trying to get help, advice and first-hand experience?


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

Edited by spiritualemerg (05/09/07 12:31 AM)

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Anonymous #1

Re: Psychiatry the fraud *DELETED* [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6892058 - 05/09/07 02:08 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by Anonymous (06/11/17 11:56 AM)

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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #6892162 - 05/09/07 02:59 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)


Edited by StickyWater (04/29/08 01:07 PM)

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #6892286 - 05/09/07 04:38 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

pB0t said:
Quote:

kotik said:
that video was also produced by the Church of Scientology. Nothing against the documentary itself, because I tend to agree with many of the points... but just keep it in perspective




Ironically, Scientologists are living proof that mental illness is real.

"Yes, psychiatrists are quacks who only want your money. Instead how about you buy this copy of Dianetics? And for just $299.99 I can test you for thetans using this E-meter! Just sign this million year contract and start giving us money, and you'll be OT level 6 (happy) in no time!"

CCHR = Scientologist = bat shit insane





good debating skills there. CCHR was formed by Scientologists, but is not funded by Scientology. Your unprofessional opinion regarding the mental status of a group that encompasses millions of people is not only immature, but based in complete ignorance of the subject at hand.

Sure, you can keep quoting clambake and xenu.org but it has nothing to do with this discussion, nor does it have any credible information.





It has plenty to do with this discussion if people are going to present the CCHR/Scientology dogma as a credible source of information without mentioning the source. Also, that millions of people are Scientologists does not make their views any more credible. The fact they call psychiatry a pseudoscience and then turn around and use E-meters and personality tests to convince people that they need help from the CoS is laughable.




credibility? it is a persons speech that consists mainly of his opinions. To bring Scientology into this is like me bringing The holocaust into this discussion. Merck had financial ties to the nazi party, as well as supplied them with Benzo's and amphetamines, from Action T4 with Friedrich Mauz, Helmuth Ehrhardt, Friedrich Panse and not to mention the head honcho Josef Mengele.
So if you really want to insert dubious opinions that are non-sequitir, start with those.


Quote:

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
also, one of those links had a great line in it.

" it only takes one person to have a physical disease, but it takes two people to have a mental one..."







Completely untrue, even if a guy in a tuxedo said it. Someone on desert island who has catatonic schizophrenia is still mentally ill.


BTW I don't think these debate threads are appropriate for a forum where people are trying to get help and advice. Should be moved IMO.







It would take another person to compare mental normality to. Just because the DSM printed it doesnt mean shit really, especially in the face of the debilitating quotes by APA, FDA, and DEA officials, that question the efficacy, as well as scientifically proved causation of mental illnesses.
The biggest fundamental flaw to Psychiatry is that it truly believes sanity is measurable.
Its second biggest flaw is that it adheres to it, and enforces it... all the while ignoring that it is in fact an imaginary line drawn by societal conditioning.
There is no "Crazy" thought outside the context of society. For me to be mentally ill, someone else has to be mentally healthy by comparison.

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Anonymous #1

Re: Psychiatry the fraud *DELETED* [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6892360 - 05/09/07 05:26 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by Anonymous (06/11/17 11:57 AM)

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Offlinerubixcubies
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Sterile]
    #6892361 - 05/09/07 05:27 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

didnt watch the videos but alls i have to say about schizophrenia and shit is....

that schizophrenia is well the way i have it (schizoaffective) its just when your logical mind is fighting your imagination and they both send conflicting messages but your imagination and logic then start to team up but they make some deluded logic about how your imagination makes sense.
and what others will say are auditory hallucinations to me it seems just like i have better hearing then others and well my imagination always is kinda like is that person yelling at me but really its sjust someone far away beating there kid or some shit.
i havent had the visual hallucinations without drugs but ive talked to many people who have and it seems to me that its the subconcsious manifestation of your fears that youre ignoring.

and the bipolar part is just happy stuff happens sad stuff happens... you react to it with more passion then otheres deem apropriate. others would diagnose drama queen you know.

i got theorys for them all. eatingt disorders. for the bulimia and anorexia it seems to be control issues. cuz i talked to my friend who was bulimic and she was talking about how like her dad was always tryign to control her and shit for until he died of cancer.

the stress eating disorder is the bodys natural response to stress. it burns more calories when stressed and in nature when condidtions are tough you gotsta eat whenever you can. just happens we always can and thats the disorder.

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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #6892388 - 05/09/07 05:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

pB0t: This thread is a debate about psychiatry and science; there is no context of advice being provided. Therefore I believe it should be moved to science and technology.

For you it may be a debate; it's not a debate for me or many of the people I talk to and for many of the people who may read this thread now or at some future point -- it's real life.

However, that is not to say that there are no good psychiatrists or psychologists out there -- they're out there, but they can be hard to come by. The truth of the matter is that most people in this culture who experience psychosis are going to be brought to the hospital; they're going to be given neuroleptic medication (whether they want it or not); they're going to be given a diagnosis that often cannot be removed from their record even if it's later discovered it's wrong; they're going to be told they have an incurable disorder; and many of them are going to enter into a cycle of chronicity, perhaps in part as a direct result of the "advanced treatment" they have received...

Quote:

"The Germans, who invented neuropathology, looked at the brains of thousands of schizophrenics before there were any neuroleptics. And they were never able to find anything. They never reported increased ventricular volume, which at postmortem you can measure quite easily. And they also never reported any specific cellular pathology, and they studied many, many, many brains." He adds that "there are a whole lot of people who don't have schizophrenia and also have enlarged ventricles. And there are people who have other psychiatric conditions who have enlarged ventricles, and there are a number of known causes of enlarged ventricles that are not schizophrenia. So, yes, there is a statistical difference, but it is not specific."

"On the other hand," Mosher continues, "there are studies that have shown that people treated with neuroleptics have changes in brain structure that are at least associated with drug treatment, dosage, and duration -- and have been shown to increase over time as drugs are given." He cites one "horrific study" of children between the ages of 10 and 15 in which the researchers measured the volumes of the kids' cortexes. "The cortex is what you think with, the part on the outside," Mosher explains. Over time, "They watched the cortical volume of these young people decline, while the cortical volume of the nonschizophrenic controls was expanding because they were adolescents and still growing." The researcher concluded that their schizophrenia had caused the decrease in the subjects. "And yet every single one was taking neuroleptic drugs," Mosher says.

-- Dr. Loren Mosher






Quote:

"I absolutely believed the common wisdom that these antipsychotic drugs actually had improved things and that they had totally revolutionized how we treated schizophrenia. People used to be locked away forever, and now maybe things weren't great, but they were a lot better. It was a story of progress."

That story of progress was fraudulent, as Whitaker soon found out when he gained new insight from his research into torturous psychiatric practices such as electroshock, lobotomy, insulin coma, and neuroleptic drugs. Psychiatrists told the public that these techniques "cured" psychosis or balanced the chemistry of the brain.

But, in reality, the common thread in all these different treatments was the attempt to suppress "mental illness" by deliberately damaging the higher functions of the brain. The stunning truth is that, behind closed doors, the psychiatric establishment itself labeled these treatments as "brain-damaging therapeutics."

The first generation of antipsychotic drugs created a drug-induced brain pathology by blocking the neurotransmitter dopamine and essentially shutting down many higher brain functions. In fact, when antipsychotics such as Thorazine and Haldol were first introduced, psychiatrists themselves said that these neuroleptic drugs were virtually indistinguishable from a "chemical lobotomy."

...

Antipsychotic drugs may cause diabetes, but the FDA still allows their sale. Here's just one real powerful study on this: Researchers with the University of Pittsburgh in the 1990s took people newly diagnosed with schizophrenia, and they started taking MRI pictures of the brains of these people. So we get a picture of their brains at the moment of diagnosis, and then we prepare pictures over the next 18 months to see how those brains change. Now during this 18 months, they are being prescribed antipsychotic medications, and what did the researchers report? They reported that, over this 18-month period, the drugs caused an enlargement of the basal ganglia, an area of the brain that uses dopamine. In other words, it creates a visible change in morphology, a change in the size of an area of the brain, and that's abnormal. That's number one. So we have an antipsychotic drug causing an abnormality in the brain.

Now here's the kicker. They found that as that enlargement occurred, it was associated with a worsening of the psychotic symptoms, a worsening of negative symptoms. So here you actually have, with modern technology, a very powerful study. By imaging the brain, we see how an outside agent comes in, disrupts normal chemistry, causes an abnormal enlargement of the basal ganglia, and that enlargement causes a worsening of the very symptoms it's supposed to treat. Now that's actually, in essence, a story of a disease process -- an outside agent causes abnormality, causes symptoms...


-- Robert Whitaker





You start looking at the history of the treatment of "mental illness" or the history of pharmacology, the CATIE study, financial ties between psychiatry, big pharma and the DSM, and it all starts to make Scientology look rather tame by comparison.


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis

Edited by spiritualemerg (05/09/07 05:44 AM)

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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,376
Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #6892459 - 05/09/07 06:17 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:

this is mostly responding to Kickle from my post in the pub yesterday, but i'll throw it in this thread...

When humans first started dabbling in physics and chemistry and astronomy etc we had little in the way to measure what we were studying. We couldn't minimize variables well and therefore we could not understand the nature of cause and effect with whatever it was we were studying. Alot of this pre-science is referred to as alchemy


SO alot of very intelligent people thought up all sorts of intelligent and creative things to explain the world around them but in scientific hindsight, now that we understand things better, it sounds foolish and often absurd.

This is what is happening with psychology/psychiatry. Alot of intelligent people are saying alot of creative and insightful things about the human mind but the vast majority of it will all come out to have little more scientific merit than astrology. We are on to something but we are way, way, off in my unprofessional and slightly educated opinion. Its the modern day alchemy



It is because there is no baseline or "off" measurements for human behavior/emotion.

There is no objective perspective of humans, available to humans.

In fact I think the least likely source of an objective perspective of a human is another human who is receiving external (and internal) rewards for giving that perspective. Money has always had the power to subtlety pervert even the most altruistic mind


I even believe many of those dedicated to psychology/psychiatry rely on it to support their deterministic leaning perspective of reality (you could say the inverse of that I suppose. Saying no to psychology is like saying yes to free will). Thats why I believe psychology/psychiatry more a philosophic study than a scientific/medical one.


There is no way to even sorta accurately recreate social, biochemical, and physical environments; the environments of a mental state . Isn't that ability to recreate like the foundation of the scientific method?


I suppose brain chemistry could be referred to as empirical, but whose to say if these are the measurements caused by the problem (emotion/behavior) or are causing the problem or really have little to do with any of it?



Right now we trying to turn lead into gold by guessing, throwing knives blindfolded, and chanting voodoo curses.




In fact, I would say the opposite is true.

The huamn genome has just been recently mapped, new imaging techniques are becoming available (fMRI, newer PET radiolabels, more specific compounds etc.). These are allowing us to study correlates of human behaviors at a much more precise level.

People fear psychiatry and psychology because it doesn't make them feel "special" or like an "individual". In one sense, YES, this is true, but if you take a more general view of humanity we are all very much alike. Our bodies are similarly constructed (in an anatomical sense) and it makes sense that our thinking patterns and neurochemistry are similar.

People are always wanting "proof". "Proof" of mental illness, that neurochemistry may underlie disease, but this takes time. Excellent links are starting to be found but it's like putting togeher an enormous puzzle one piece at a time.

You mention "alchemy" and pseudoscience, but many of the links in this thread refer to "spiritual healing" and the "power of love" to handle mental illness. In fact, it is these attitudes that will bring us back to the days when we invoked the power of god to heal all things.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #6892493 - 05/09/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
I watched that ridiculous documentary where they did exactly that. I am not even going to address the claim that psychiatry is a worldwide conspiracy bent on world domination, responsible for both the Holocaust and 9/11 because it's absurd.



Thanks pB0t, I almost wasted some of my life watching that. I simply cannot believe that such claims are made, and I agree with you that they are inherently absurd.

I did think the video on the Thud experiment was cute, and I completely disagree with the unwillingness of the hospitals to allow the patients to check themselves out, that is clearly wrong and I hope it has been changed in the interim.

However, I think that psychiatry provides a very real and very important service to the community when it is used in a voluntary way.

If you, as an individual, are suffering because of a condition that you cannot, for whatever reason, handle on your own or with the aid of simple therapy, what is the harm in allowing someone else to try and aid you? People turn to religious guidance or meditation or mushrooms (there are enough stories of this on these forums alone) all of the time to gain perspective on their own inner struggles. Similarly, if someone wants to approach a psychiatrist, voluntarily, and try their solutions, what is the harm in that?

The world is already full of beliefs that cannot be readily quantified and yet are widespread (the desire to save endangered species from going extinct comes to mind, there's no direct benefit to anyone from saving a single species from extinction, yet many people participate in it anyway, and much pseudo-science has arrisen around it), so what is the harm in one more such belief?

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #6893914 - 05/09/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
credibility? it is a persons speech that consists mainly of his opinions. To bring Scientology into this is like me bringing The holocaust into this discussion. Merck had financial ties to the nazi party, as well as supplied them with Benzo's and amphetamines, from Action T4 with Friedrich Mauz, Helmuth Ehrhardt, Friedrich Panse and not to mention the head honcho Josef Mengele.
So if you really want to insert dubious opinions that are non-sequitir, start with those.





I watched that ridiculous documentary where they did exactly that. I am not even going to address the claim that psychiatry is a worldwide conspiracy bent on world domination, responsible for both the Holocaust and 9/11 because it's absurd.

CCHR was founded by the Church of Scientology, and is an advocacy group that promotes Scientology's radical anti-psychiatry agenda. That is why the CoS is relevant.



quit with the ad hominems. Advocacy groups promote agendas..... it is what they do. This isnt a discussion about Scientology, it is a discussion about psychiatry. The only reason you would even bring up Scientology is because it has a general negative stigma attached to its name. "Oh, im not even going to watch the video, it was made by those crazy scientologists".
It is a debating Fallacy.

Quote:

To again address Tuxedo man's quote, sane/insane may be somewhat subjective, but the symptoms people suffer are real. At what point does a person have cardiovascular disease? I would guess that it is when their symptoms become threatening or have an adverse effect on quality of life. The same method can be applied to mental illness. (disclaimer: I am not a doctor) Someone who is so depressed they cannot get out of bed and obsess over suicide needs help because their condition threatens their life and well-being, much like a person with clogged arteries.



See, the difference is that there is real, tangible, testable, and measurable normalcy that can be done on the biophysiology of man. Physical normalcy can be pinned down accurately as a constant.

The biggest difference though is that when someone dies of heart failure, I can open up their chest and pull out their heart and study it and come to a logical scientific conclusion that his heart was the cause of death. When someone commits suicide, I cant pull out their emotions and come to a scientific conclusion that they caused him to commit suicide.
The psychiatric community is under the false assumption that the rules set forth by society and the illusory paramaters of morality, righteousness, decency and sanity are a universal constant and that it is human genetics which have become abnormal and unable to fit into the criteria.... when in fact it is our society that needs to be fixed.
Psychiatry wants you to believe that certain people are genetically predisposed to enjoying life less than others..... and that is laughable.

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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,376
Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6894523 - 05/09/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:

See, the difference is that there is real, tangible, testable, and measurable normalcy that can be done on the biophysiology of man. Physical normalcy can be pinned down accurately as a constant.

The biggest difference though is that when someone dies of heart failure, I can open up their chest and pull out their heart and study it and come to a logical scientific conclusion that his heart was the cause of death. When someone commits suicide, I cant pull out their emotions and come to a scientific conclusion that they caused him to commit suicide.
The psychiatric community is under the false assumption that the rules set forth by society and the illusory paramaters of morality, righteousness, decency and sanity are a universal constant and that it is human genetics which have become abnormal and unable to fit into the criteria.... when in fact it is our society that needs to be fixed.
Psychiatry wants you to believe that certain people are genetically predisposed to enjoying life less than others..... and that is laughable.




Psychiatry is like a lot of other sciences, it predicts trends and outcomes. Not everyone who smokes dies of lung cancer, but there is a strong trend towards it. The same is true of cholesterol, high levels are correlated with heart diease and mortality.

BOTH have a genetic component (Cancer and cholesterol) but this doesn't mean you are "geneticaly programmed" to succumb to either. Psychiatry works in a similar fashion. Psychiatry will never say you are "absolutely destined" or "genetically programmed" to any specific behavior, but it can predict trends.

Moreover, psychiatry continues to develop new tools and new techniques which are able to get more objective, empirical data and then correlate these things to behavior. Again, this will not be "absolute" but it will predict trends (the same as any other science). In very real sense, we may someday "pull out" why someone committed suicide.

In the interim,the more likely scenario is we will be able to say it looks like: "X, Y, and Z caused a person to commit suicide but we aren't certain". The specific, EXACT cause of cancer is unknown, but cancer research isn't dismissed as pseudoscience. People have linked cancer to genetics, environmental factors, hormonal levels etc. In the same way psychological disorders have been.

As far as "rules of society" are concerned I would argue that across cultures, there are in fact constants. For instance, most do not condone murder.

What is more interesting is "why" particular societies may endorse or engage in particular behaviors. People of different cultures all inherit a group of characteristics passed down among generations. This is why people of a particular ethnicity may all look alike, or have similar physical characteristics.

Why is it such a crazy idea that particular behaviors may have a genetic basis? Other complex behaviors certainly seem to be inherited, some families inherit artistic ability. Others breed athletes, others breed highly intelligent people. My friend is an alcoholic and an asshole just like his dad.

Why is it "laughable" that you could inherit a shitty dispostion towards life from your parents? Do you mean to say that you inherit the instructions for EVERY SINGLE physical charactertic from your parents, yet "personality" is 100% independent of genetic influence?

environmental factors only account for so much.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: badchad]
    #6894783 - 05/09/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I think that was a very well thought out post, kudos.

To expand a little on the last thought; why is it that children from the same parent can vary so much, even in the earliest of years, if genetics play no role in their temperament. Some try to get attention by crying, while others will smile. I never have liked the nature versus nurture argument, because both seem to be very crucial in who we are, and will be.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: badchad]
    #6895168 - 05/09/07 08:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:


Psychiatry is like a lot of other sciences, it predicts trends and outcomes. Not everyone who smokes dies of lung cancer, but there is a strong trend towards it. The same is true of cholesterol, high levels are correlated with heart diease and mortality.




Actually, doctors dont research trends, pharmaceutical corporations pretty much do that... the ones who truly make money from it.
Ask any doctor what you could do to combat high cholesterol and lung cancer and they will all tell you to get lots of exercise, eat healthy, and dont smoke.
Where as Psychiatrists when asked how to not be depressed will say "You need therapy and drugs".

Quote:

BOTH have a genetic component (Cancer and cholesterol) but this doesn't mean you are "geneticaly programmed" to succumb to either. Psychiatry works in a similar fashion. Psychiatry will never say you are "absolutely destined" or "genetically programmed" to any specific behavior, but it can predict trends.




Correlation and Causation are not the same thing. Trends only show correlation. Also, the difference between physiology and psychology is that there is an observable malfunction, which can be treated, even without known causation. This organ fails, well we will get you another one.
I would be just as outspoken against western medicine if all they did were throw pills at people based on trends and correlations. People died from heart disease long before cholesterol medication, and will continue to die from it long after...


Quote:

Moreover, psychiatry continues to develop new tools and new techniques which are able to get more objective, empirical data and then correlate these things to behavior. Again, this will not be "absolute" but it will predict trends (the same as any other science). In very real sense, we may someday "pull out" why someone committed suicide.



hmmm, new tools? you mean like shock therapy? lobotomies? putting children on schedule II drugs? Claiming homosexuality is a disease?

I cant wait for some new gems to cure the world!

Quote:

In the interim,the more likely scenario is we will be able to say it looks like: "X, Y, and Z caused a person to commit suicide but we aren't certain".



right... and is this how science works? "We think X, Y and Z make a quantum computer, but we arent certain, it could be an atom splitter.

Quote:

The specific, EXACT cause of cancer is unknown, but cancer research isn't dismissed as pseudoscience. People have linked cancer to genetics, environmental factors, hormonal levels etc. In the same way psychological disorders have been.




but cancer is a tangible thing. we know how it works, and we can accurately find it and remove it with a pretty good success rate instead of giving them lots of pain pills to ease the pain until they die. "Yes, you have cancer, and you will eventually die from it, so here are some pills that will make it seem like you dont have cancer. have a nice life".

Quote:

As far as "rules of society" are concerned I would argue that across cultures, there are in fact constants. For instance, most do not condone murder.



remember war? man, that was a really long time ago, when at one time the majority of all countries were involved in murder. Oh wait, but that is different right? because society condones it.... so therefor it isnt a mental abberation.
I get it now. makes total sense.

Quote:

What is more interesting is "why" particular societies may endorse or engage in particular behaviors. People of different cultures all inherit a group of characteristics passed down among generations. This is why people of a particular ethnicity may all look alike, or have similar physical characteristics.



lol... this is like saying language is genetic. I inherited the english speaking gene.
The way you view reality is shaped by your surroundings, and since the majority of people are surrounded most by their genetic predecessors, it isnt logical to just say that A must Cause B.

Quote:

Why is it such a crazy idea that particular behaviors may have a genetic basis? Other complex behaviors certainly seem to be inherited, some families inherit artistic ability. Others breed athletes, others breed highly intelligent people. My friend is an alcoholic and an asshole just like his dad.




like above, an artistic family is going to have an environment condusive to being an artist, and which traits do you think the family full of artists would encourage in their offspring? UFC fighting or photography? You are not showing anything but coincidence, which isnt even correlation really.

Quote:

Why is it "laughable" that you could inherit a shitty dispostion towards life from your parents? Do you mean to say that you inherit the instructions for EVERY SINGLE physical charactertic from your parents, yet "personality" is 100% independent of genetic influence?




yes. personality is 100% independant of genetics. I am saying that. However there is no accurate way to prove it, so it falls into belief. Which is where it should stay, rather than be considered a scientific finding based on correlation and not causation, and then go forward with legalizing drugs based on these weak assumptions.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6895186 - 05/09/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I have a proposal: Anyone here who opposes psychiatry(all psychiatry) can adopt one of these people who are supposedly not really sick from a mental institution and judge for themselves how healthy they are.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Silversoul]
    #6895261 - 05/09/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

and I guess everyone who is opposed to the war should havea person from Iraq live with them?

Come on people, your arguments are getting weaker and weaker.

See, im not opposed to psychiatry, I am opposed to it calling itself a science, when it is based almost entirely on correlations and beliefs rather than logic and known causation.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6895291 - 05/09/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think of psychiatry as a science -- I see it as a medical practice. Psychiatrists aren't scientists anymore than surgeons are. It is, however, based on two related fields: psychology and neurology. Psychology is a social science, and thus is not considered as authoritative as one of the hard sciences, but has nonetheless greatly contributed to our understanding of the mind. Neurology, on the other hand, has all the qualifications of a hard science.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: Silversoul]
    #6895307 - 05/09/07 08:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

here is an exercise for some of you.

define insanity and/or mental illness.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Psychiatry the fraud [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6895365 - 05/09/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Correlation may not be causality, but it also isn't as worthless as you would paint it. Statistics are used in a lot of the sciences. If they were worthless, I doubt this would be the case.

However, you are very correct in saying that there is no proof positive that genetics play a role. But all signs I see point to yes.

Twin studies, especially ones involving those adopted at birth and reared in seperate families, are relatively convincing to me. Twins would be a good way to determine genetic links.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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