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Ikal
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/07
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Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Datura question
#6880158 - 05/06/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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If one is to smoke a datura, how long will the high last? I know that eating or tea produces 2-4 days of high, but I dont want nearly that. (Ive got D. wrightii if that makes any difference)
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl
Registered: 01/13/06
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6880179 - 05/06/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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You will not get high that way.. And you shouldn't eat it either..
What you should do is this: Throw that shit away. Use the search post function and read up on what people has to say about datura. A hint: it wont be good things..
-------------------- Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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Ikal
Stranger
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Re: Datura question [Re: Nalim]
#6880197 - 05/06/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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look, I know all about effects of daturas and related plants, including myriad dangers/health risks/dose variability and I still want to use it. I will be very careful in its use. If youre thinking im just a thrill-seeker, youre wrong: I use substances for entheogenic purposes only.
Edited by Ikal (05/06/07 12:04 PM)
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6880211 - 05/06/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Then eat it, you will burn the actives trough smoking it..
-------------------- Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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DontFearThePeepr
Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 730
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6880236 - 05/06/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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you must be crazy. everybody i know that has done the shit (that's 3 people) has never come back the same. it is wildly freaky stuff. not to mention, i dont even know what you'd get out of it. i hear it's hard to remember any of the experience, and a very significant portion of those that try it suffer negative consequences for the rest of their lives. anyway, good luck and watch your dosage.
-------------------- It's only the strongest people who will actually help
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Ikal
Stranger
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Re: Datura question [Re: Nalim]
#6880240 - 05/06/07 12:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Really? I read on a much older thread (that I did not feel like reviving) that others had smoked flowers/seeds/leaves. Were they just talking out of their asses? And for those who think nothing good ever comes of Datura: A poster on an entheogenic website, calling himself “Burning_Copal,” had this to say about the deleriant Datura that has caused numerous deaths over the years and is considered by many to be the most dangerous drug in the world (note: previous posts and posters are refered to):
I'll agree, the tropane solanaceae do not have any obvious recreational value, though there may be some people who enjoy the sensations, it is hard to fathom the enjoyment being recreational.
and EB , the quote you had from QB , I'm going to say, your going to find VERY few people even willing to prepare a dosage for a family member who they may be apprenticing, in the western world, liablity is a big issue with these plants, its at the point where if one did wish to learn about the tropane solanaceae , they are most likely going to have to take the road of hard knocks, and hopefully not get knocked off the road, which it is possible to walk, and not get knocked off .
And Tron, It is true that the plant can often dig up very unpleasent things, but the things it digs up are not nessecarily so, when I say they uncover very deeply buried things, these are not always negative, they are rather, the things buried in the mind, that we dont clearly remember, or dont remember at all, but may lead to flashes of things like deja vu or may be aparent in dreams, but not in waking reality. Granted alot of these things can be unpleasent memories ( in many cases probobly the same mental concepts that are the culprits for nightmares ) but this is not always the case, there have been many occasions where a memory of something returned, that at the given time, was something most direly needed to be remembered, in a very posative way. Underlying the harshness of these plants is a true potential to heal, it just has to be approached carefuly, and respectfully, people may beable to get away with redicules dosages of mushrooms, and come away with a minor ' bad trip ' not the case with these. Dosage must be correct for the individual, and something only the individual would know, what may not induce delerium in one, may kill another, the LD50 are relative , especialy in things like this that people react so variably to. I think many of the people who have come to know ( and if they are still interacting, probobly love ) these plants, would have prefered to have some hands on , first hand instruction, but in the western world, this is not feasible, and very unlikely because people would be worried about being sued if the dosage killed the apprentice.
Does that mean its something that should be tossed out of western culture, or that individuals in western culture will find no merit in ? Not at all, its just a near requirement for us now, to take the more dangerous road in learning about the plants. The western worlds concept of ' recreational drug' is not something that fits tropane solanaceae at all.
As time goes by, the diging slowly uncovers less and less unpleasentness, as these things do by in large get resolved if thats your intent in the experience, but at the times that the ' waking nightmares ' occur, it is helpful to retain enough awareness not to become agitated. What I've noticed with each passing year however, is the desire to react to anything , be it posative or negative, in a overblown, or exited fashion, is becoming less and less. May see the most pleasent vision, or the most hideous one, and it just floats by, and is considered for its meaning, not condoned, not condamned it is what it is, and what these plants dig up, are what is needed to be considered, refusing to do so openly and honestly with yourself, is going to result in a very confused mindstate as unless thoes things are resolved, they tend to come up in the dreams in the days following, and in the dreams you have even less control over how you react to things.
Now I'm going to go back to a source that alot of people learned about these plants from, who was widely believed to be a fraud ( by in large I believe he was ) Carlos Castaneda . Fraud or not, he described some things that were acurate, some that were not in regards to this as far as my own experience goes.
That the plant is for ' power ' in a way yes it is, if one is fermilar with the plant and is comfortable with interacting with it, as far as my experience has gone, there is a most certinaly a rush of power shortly following consumption of the sacrament, and then following the narcosis as well, but there IS a narcosis at somepoint between the two, a ' weakness in the middle ' at which time you have even less power then before. This power could be thought of as mental energy, spiritual energy, but a lack of it results in mental lethargy, and physical lethargy as well, this is as best as I can tell the ' narcosis ' that is a inability to resist sleep at some point.
The power when it is experienced at the begining , and the end, as my experience has gone, was a sensation hard to describe, physicaly and mentaly it had a similar effect, it slowed, but keened the movements and actions in the mind and the body, while movement is slowed , what is done with the body / mind at that time, is very keen, very purposeful . You dont exagerate a movement, and you dont exagerate a thought ( or I do not ) as a result alot of energy that would be directed at over reaction to one or another thing, is not at all, and the mind is very quiet. But at the sametime is as if it was dreaming, things are dug up, and tossed infront of you. The reasons I have personaly found this benifical are many , for one being able to recall things that are so deeply buried, allows them to of course be worked with, secondly the ' keening ' allows me more specificly to resolve these then any entheogen I have personaly encountered could aid. Its not only diging up the issue, and presenting it in a way that is not biased by my own concepts of pleasent and unpleasent, its there, if I like it or not, and its telling me what needs to be resolved. At this time, without the mental chatter that we so commonly experience , there is no energy being wasted on that, the body is lethargic but energetic at the sametime, such that its not wasting energy on movements that arent required, and the mind is not doing so with thoughts that are not either, with the purpose in mind for which it was consulted, this allows what ever issue needs to be resolved, to be done so where the individual may not normaly have had enough energy to dig it up / confront it / accept it / and heal it , but then there is the narcosis .
Its during the narcosis that the weakeness occurs, at which time you are no longer conciously aware of the things being dug up, but still are percieving them, at which time they can be quite frightening, as we know nightmares tend to be more so then simply thinking about the samething when awake.
After the narcosis again one wakes up, the power returns in that again the mind is still, and the body more or less as well, the power is less then originaly because at this point, the body is actually injured ( atleast this is my reasoning, again these are my own personal experiences ) and some of that is being used to heal the body, so there is a sense of lethargy that is difficult to shake, but the mind and body remain stilled for a time. However outside human stimuli, people talking, people asking you things about something that has no relevance to your own life , may be quite bothersome.
Now this is a predictable course of events, what occurs within thoes events each time dependant on the conditions, and the purpose of the healing, but it has followed this pattern for quite sometime.
Another thing to consider, if you cant percieve something horribly unpleasent, without becoming agitated, these plants are not going to help. They are going to agitate, I've found for myself that I don't typicaly react to things I see or percive in a emotional fashion untill I can understand what it is I'm actually percieving, then I do my best to keep negative emotions from runing rampent, if one cannot do this, and believes everything they are seeing is ' evil ' and that simply perceving it is a curse or some such, tropanes are going to bury the individual in fear.
I believe I mentioned that I was diagnosed schizophrenic when I was very young, it may be that over the years I became more and more adapt at not reacting to things percieved by the mind in ways that exagerated unpleasentness, and at the sametime, not latching onto things and interpreting them as more posative then they are, something I suppose you have to do with a state of mind in order to remain stable. That may be why I do not have the issues many people do with these plants, I may have learned to keep fear in check even when the mind is essentialy having a waking nightmare.
I guess I do ramble alot about these plants, we all have our friends, we all have our allies, and many of them may seem to others, to be quite unruely, but if one accepts such for long enough period of time, and does so genuinely without fear or malice towards them for the ' hard knocks ' they induce, then there is reason that needs no justification from anyone else, but just the same, the topic comes up , and I guess it could be said I am passionate about the topic, though if one had known me years before, and now years after beginging the relationship with these plants, they would understand that there may be some truely posative potential in them, As far as most people on here have opinons of me, good or ill, thats fine and well, they've known me for only a little over a year, for my family who knows when the change began ( of my own volition, though with Toloache as a guide ) and knows what iniated it , they have said manytimes the change has been dramatic, and quite posative, and family friends as well have made similar comments, though most of them do not know when and why the change occured.
I guess it is a odd situation I'm in when discussion of these things come up, having had such a posative change in my life after beginging the relationship, I of coures feel quite fondly about them, but I am not ignorant to the danger they pose , if prepared or dosed improperly, or consumed with a fearful mindset, or even all thoes aside, I'm quite aware long term ,there are likely physical consequences as we know these plants are quite hard on the body, I'll pay that price, and I'd pay it twice over , or thrice over, because the conditions prior , were a living hell, and now atleast, I'm working towards opening my eyes to life, and being content, peaceful and happy again. Its a work in progress, a windy road, a bumpy road, lots of ups and downs, but for the chance atleast to make the decision to travel this road, rather then just continuing to lay in / die in the ditch I had ended up years back, its well worth it.
I would say, it would be a wonderful thing if more people had such a posative interaction, but most dont typicaly, its not something I take pride in , it simply was the right plant, at the right time, to encourage me to change my life, and I did so, and continue to do so, and weither people call this the ' devils weed ' really dosent matter too much to myself, but again Aha! as Castaneda wrote, he was told she is like a woman, and yes strange as it may seem, I've found myself defending these plants and what ever the allie is present in them, like I would a woman. Even relationships with plants have their quirks.
Edited by Ikal (05/06/07 12:12 PM)
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl
Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 15,033
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6880257 - 05/06/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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you can probably get effects if you smoke enough(not everything is destroyed).. Haven't tried it as I know it's a stupid ass drug to use..
-------------------- Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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DontFearThePeepr
Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 730
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6880290 - 05/06/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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2 of those 3 i mentioned smoked it. and it worked.
i think they were both in a psych ward within hours. one of them was almost hit by highway traffic, eating shampoo and anything else he could find under the sink, taking a shower (fully clothed), talking to no one on the telephone, and handing his father a shoe before running laps around the cars in his driveway. maybe he just didnt get an 'appropriate' dose though.
have you done this before? because this is a serious gamble.
-------------------- It's only the strongest people who will actually help
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chemiKalz
u r tripp0r?
Registered: 09/08/05
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Loc: upstate ny
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drink some bleach while your at it
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Ikal
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/07
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Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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No, I havent done it before, but it seems as if none of them had a sitter. And too high a dose. Generally, Ive heard that if you have a dose large enough to induce complete delerium, that will destroy the memory; less will not. I do know someone who has personally done a Brugmansia, but Brugmansia tend to be a bit tamer than Daturas (so I gather).
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cpw1971
Mr
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 5,615
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6880555 - 05/06/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I smoked it many times IT doesn't do shit smoked also dont mess with eating it either. It affects different brains in different ways. we are all wired different. you never know what will happen to you. it isnt a "High" it is delerium from being poisoned. theres a fine line between feeling any effects and death. most users dont even notice the effects because of the delerium. do you want to take that risk???? try Ayahuasca instead as its much safer and you will see other realities and you will come back normal.
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ZippoZ
Knomadic
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Posts: 13,227
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Re: Datura question [Re: cpw1971]
#6880641 - 05/06/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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someone once LITERALLY cut them selves open while on dature with a power saw..
stay away from it man, do some safe drugs if anything...
-------------------- PEACE zippoz "in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption" "People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
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cricket
Lord Cricket
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Re: Datura question [Re: ZippoZ]
#6880790 - 05/06/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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You CAN get a mild, short lasting buzz from smoking the leaves. You can also die from using this plant.
Smoking leaves gives me a weird, hot feeling headache. You can also drop a seed or three in a bowl of weed. I liked it better then leaves. I don't get that headache. Since you feel the effect soon after you burn it, it is also easier to regulate your dosage. Stay away from the teas. It's too easy to over do it. Dosage is hard to calculate. Different plants, leaves and seeds from the same patch can have a wide range in potency.
Be safe!
-------------------- I tried to leave my signature but it didn't work... By the way... Does anybody know how to get sharpie markers off of a computer screen?
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Salvinorin
I like plants.
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Re: Datura question [Re: cricket]
#6880837 - 05/06/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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The only context I would even consider doing datura in is if it was given to me by a VERY experienced Amazonian shaman (though it would be called "toe"), and be watched by him the entire time, and have him decided the dose.
Unless you are one of the few remaining shamans in the world, DO NOT DO DATURA.
-------------------- "What you say is a cluster-fuck of nonsense." - Yageman
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supra
computerEnthusiast
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Re: Datura question [Re: cricket]
#6881119 - 05/06/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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ive smoked datura metal flowers alone, and with weed before. I really enjoy mixing them with weed actually, 50/50, gives me a nice change every once in a while from regular old bud. Definitely gives a head change when smoked, but it is very minor. Possibly what i got from it could be placebo...i would never eat any BTW...
ive also read the flowers are the lowest in alkaloids of the whole plant, so i dont know what smoking leaves/seeds would do.
peace
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Re: Datura question [Re: Salvinorin] 1
#6881121 - 05/06/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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shamans aren't the holy experts they are cracked up to be.
that a shaman can predict the outcome of datura consumption accurately is a myth.
they are MOSTLY drug-saavy spiritualists that conduct ritual ceremony and consume or administer drugs to divine evidance of their supersititions.
theres a reason they are so rare.
ANYWAY. The idea is that chances are you wont die from consumeing small ammounts of datura. chance of death is very small at small doses.
But small to mid-range doses can still result in dangerous disorientation. you could walk into traffic or drown.
the real power of a shaman in this instance lies NOT in the guessing of the outcome accurately, but rather in taking care to NOT underestimate the stregnth of the tripsitting force required to handle disaster.
the idea that datura was ever used "safely" for spiritual practices is hogwash. "spirit quests" and their ilk are, and have ALWAYS been dangerous ordeals.
i wonder how the "peyote way church of god" will survive if someone comes seeking wisdom and then wanders into the desert where they get pinched between 2 unbalanced boulders or some accident that obviously wouldn't have happened to a non-tripping person.
just want to get it off my chest that "the way of the shaman", although romantic is a ticking timebomb at best, that enjoys a full and exciting existance counting on probabilities. Untill the inevitable booboo.
maybe a thousand years ago, a tribe would forgive a "booboo" as par for the course. But translating the success of shamanism into todays standards of "success" only makes it SEEM safe. Because, to us (who take our communal sense of safety for granted), fathoming an unsafe practice being allowed to play a pivital role in an entire civilization for eons seems unlikely.
shamans were revered because people thought they communed with the gods. NOT because they were known to keep people safe while consuming dangerous substances.
think about that.
now, hopefully all the following images will hotlink
other dangerous things peopel do but take for granted as normal
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl
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Re: Datura question [Re: Mitchnast]
#6881228 - 05/06/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Great put, I was thinking something like that but was to lazy to put it in writing.
-------------------- Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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brshroomer
Moss bear hunter
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Re: Datura question [Re: Nalim]
#6881376 - 05/06/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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read castaneda's book... it gives you a new view on datura...
rather then eating the whole material, he rubs it in his body... it's pretty cool...it gives him diferent effects just by the area it was put (forehead...legs...) and method of preparation...
but damn..that was strong, the trips he describes are wonderful(not necessarily in a good way...but very powerful)
edit: BTW...that bung jump thing is awesome...i always imagined what would it be like...
Edited by brshroomer (05/06/07 05:43 PM)
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justin340
Rock Star
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6881378 - 05/06/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'd stick with eveyrone who says do not try it. I tried it before checkign out the shroomery. i also tried to smoke some of it, it did absolutely nothing. i then ate the seeds about 300 i'd say the side effects alone are terrible, this is true, i couldn't pee for days my urinary tract was so restricted for some reason, also i had dry mouth so bad i was crying, and i'm a grown man, my whole throat hurt to breathe. the experience was over the brink of insanity. i thought my telephone cord was a plant that turned into a monster and was going to take over by body, i started screaming and running around like a mad man. THen i proceded to watch tv, but my tv kept turning off. I'd go to turn it back on only to realize that the remote that was in my hand, had appared some place totally different, even though i had not moved and it was well out of my reach. this terrified me, since it was beyond the laws of logic. at one point i had a remote in my hand, then started thinking why did i take the remote into the bathroom with me, i went to look at the couch and there on the couch was the remote, this blew my mind. in a bad way. i preceded to think salvia was a deamon and after my soul. i then started reading a book to calm myself down and it was this secreat pamplet from the cia on how dautra is the "truth" i then became confused as to how i got this pamplet. realized it was imaginary. Then my mind told me "you made this pamplet in your past life." this was a shitty explanation, i kept thinking stupid stuff liek that all night, my mind would not work right. then imaginary people kept appareing, telling me things that made no sense. i'd be getting busted one minute, which truend out to be a hallucination, the next my cousin, would walk out of the closet she also unreal. I felt this deamon presense around the whole experience. like this was way to powerful of a plant to experiment with. I wanted to try it because i heard it could produce totally believable hallucinations, which it does, the other stuff makes it not worth it at all. THe hullicinations also are so severe, i had absolutely no idea as to what was real or not, which is unnerving. One paticular momoent invovled watching this new tv show called delerium where these mad men dance around this giant flower. I was like "this is a terriable idea for a tv show, what is nbc thinking having a show about people who are possesed by a giant plant. Then i realized this was a hallucination caused by dautra, and it was after me to worship it i thought at the time. the next day i forgot 90 percent of what happened only to know it was crazy, some odd things are i microwaved an electric drill, couldn't see straight for a week it messes your vision up. Later i found erowid and checked them out only to find out they never reccomed anyone trying dautra. The effects are beyond anything i thought possible this is the only bizzare part that could be neutral or positve of the whole experience. About 15 percent of it was really interesting an d positive. I did it with no sitter and remember thinking i was lucky as hell to not be arrested, also dautra made me really violent for parts, like i was seriously worried that i could hurt someone i loved so or myself, so i locked myself in my room. I could go on for pages about the crazy shit it made me think afterwards. if you do it have, 2 or 3 sober sitters, don't do it around pubic or do it around any item remotely dangerous. drink tons of water or liquid. also you should post your experience on this thread, i'd be interested to see how it turns out. You'll probably join the "never try this crowd"
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: Datura question [Re: justin340]
#6881415 - 05/06/07 05:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fine times with Datura may be possible thru topical application (that is: absorbed thru the skin). ref: Witches flying ointment.
-------------------- Let it not be remembered That mycelium eats detritus and dies But that life in all it's glory Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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cpw1971
Mr
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 5,615
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Re: Datura question [Re: Booby]
#6881546 - 05/06/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have made an oil extract from the seeds and smoked it still notta if it had any effect smoking then an extract would have been it but nope.
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ShroomDoom
Friend of the Medicine
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6881556 - 05/06/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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good luck to you. i would never take datura ever, too dangerous at significant doses and too many long term effects. i hope you dont die, that would really suck to die from datura, i am almost certain that would put your last infinite moment of consciousness in a hell-like state.
--------------------
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl
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Re: Datura question [Re: ShroomDoom]
#6881707 - 05/06/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
i hope you dont die, that would really suck to die from datura
Thats going into my sign. lmfao
-------------------- Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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AlephOne
Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 150
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6881737 - 05/06/07 07:07 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I refuse to even grow anything with atropine in it. That sucks, because I'd really like a mandrake root, but they're just too dangerous to have lying around. Let alone to deliberately ingest.
If you want a deleriant that won't kill your ass, L. Diffusa and Saguaro are loaded with tetrahydroisoquinolines like Pellotine, Carnegine, Arizonine and Gigantine. They still have pretty much the same effect: you'll barf, you won't know what's going on around you, and you'll probably go into a coma.
It's just that with the cacti, you eventually wake up again.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Datura question [Re: AlephOne]
#6881870 - 05/06/07 07:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Castaneda was a huckster, and I'm getting pretty tired hearing people refer to his books as if they were the bible. He was a liar and a scam artist. Some of the information in his books was ok because he was an anthropologist and has access to vast libraries of field study reports which he ripped off and never credited. He did go down to Mexico for awhile, but he never met anyone named Don Juan and where he did go he never even went out with the others on vision quests because he was too busy trying to bang all the girls in town. Don't trust a damn thing the man says. There are many other more reliable sources for such information, some of them are just harder to access I suppose.
That was a total tangent, so to stay on topic: I've never taken datura and nor do I really have much interest. I dunno man, if you're convinced its something you have to do than be really really careful. Undershoot the dosage you think you need and have a good sitter.
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brshroomer
Moss bear hunter
Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 970
Last seen: 11 months, 14 days
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Re: Datura question [Re: NiamhNyx]
#6882239 - 05/06/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'm not refering them as the bible...but there are interesting points in there... something that someone wanting to try datura could find useful...
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AlephOne
Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 150
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Re: Datura question [Re: NiamhNyx]
#6882249 - 05/06/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Did I refer to his books? The pharmacology of isoquinolines is well documented, and gas chromatography shows that the primary alkaloid content of L. Diffusa and Saguaro are isoquinolines. Carnegine is, in fact, produced by chemical supply companies and is being abuses as a street drug in Mexico (this came to me by way of a French toxicologist, whose paper I have now lost). In any case, he reported a case of a woman who would come in to the clinic in a delerious state, hallucinate, slip into a coma, and wake up later. He eventually was able to identify carnegine in her urine, and learned that she was getting it from a chemical supply company. I've never read Castaneda, it's all in the journals.
Lophophora Diffusa, isoquinoline pharmacology (includes those present in Saguaro and L. Diffusa), Saguaro Alkaloids, More Saguaro Alkaloids.
Those isoquinolines are contained in concentrations of, typically, 1%-2% of the cactus weight. By way of comparison, San Pedro contains concentrations of mescaline of about .33%-3% by dry weight (all of that can be verified in the above links).
[Edit]: Other people have referenced Castaneda in this thread. I've heard, though that he has talked about the delerient effects of L. Diffusa, and wanted to make sure I wasn't being confused for one of his readers.
Edited by AlephOne (05/06/07 09:18 PM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: Sexual aid [Re: Booby]
#6885555 - 05/07/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Booby said: Fine times with Datura may be possible thru topical application (that is: absorbed thru the skin). ref: Witches flying ointment.
I wouldn't be surprised if this substance proved to better be classified as a sexual stimulant when applied in this manner.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Datura question [Re: Booby]
#6886065 - 05/07/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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with out a doubt smoked fresh datura or brugmansia works. smoking alot of brugmansia can cause almost the same effects as eating it. my friend left his bad of brugmansia out and some friend of his took it and smoked the whole bag and was made for 12hours or so freaking out. personally i have found smoked Brugmansia to have effects as well but more notablely fresh datura smoked works well mainly flowers, and dreid not so much. i suggest mixing fresh datura with mapacho and smoking in a pipe or in a dutch master
-------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Datura question [Re: AlephOne]
#6886606 - 05/07/07 09:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I didn't mean to reply to you, I just forgot to set the right person to reply to. Sorry if you thought I was railing on you for reading Castaneda when you never even mentioned him! Journals are, of course, a far better source of info than that huckster, it's nice to see someone do thier research.
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AlephOne
Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 150
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Re: Datura question [Re: NiamhNyx]
#6886737 - 05/07/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, it didn't occur to me that you probably weren't actually talking to me until after I'd written that (thus the edit). Sorry for the confusion.
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chemiKalz
u r tripp0r?
Registered: 09/08/05
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Loc: upstate ny
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Re: Datura question [Re: AlephOne]
#6886744 - 05/07/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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only leet hax0rs are advised to take datura
--------------------
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Datura question [Re: chemiKalz]
#6887504 - 05/08/07 12:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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no responsible datura use is prefectly fine,safe,and is a great shamanic tool. tho most poeple that use it dont have those intentions at all and thats why shit gets so damn fucked up.
-------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Re: Datura question [Re: thedudenj]
#6888032 - 05/08/07 06:28 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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"shamanic tool"
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl
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Re: Datura question [Re: Mitchnast]
#6888047 - 05/08/07 06:33 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hmmm, I would probably use one of those words to describe anyone that thinks datura is safe...
-------------------- Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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MrKite1
Cosmo
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 1,384
Loc: AK
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Re: Datura question [Re: Nalim]
#6888563 - 05/08/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I recall a number of my peers deciding to give datura a whirl in high school. I knew better and tried to warn them about it but when someone is committed to doing something foolish it can be hard to dissuade them. They were lucky, the worst thing to come of it was one young man who pulled a Robert Downey Jr at the peak of his delirium and wound up in jail. He only broke into this house he thought was his after stealing his friend's car by mistake and driving it across town. The others just made asses of themselves at work or school and struggled with the persisting impairment from datura for the remainder of the week.
-------------------- When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Datura question [Re: MrKite1]
#6889346 - 05/08/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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like said with proper guidance and intent its safe not when some kids go. hmm i have no idea of the strength and eat massive amounts and almost get killed. one thing about when a tribe uses it they know the potency and if you wanna say potency varies the get it from the same plant year after year they know and you dont have to even have sampled it before if your a skilled medicine man you can tell potency by just holding it. as i said and say all the time when kids use it to get high bad shit happens. when its used responsibly its a great healing tool and can do nothing but good and teach. and no a group of middle aged people that think they will have a good time is not responsible.
i made ayahuasca with cactus,and fresh datura off a bush and gave it to a girl for her first time and took it with a fellow as well and nothing bad came it was 100% postive. for all 3 of us
-------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Re: Datura question [Re: thedudenj]
#6889969 - 05/08/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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and you learned this from where?
potency varies from plant to plant, it ALSO varies remarkably from leaf to leaf, seed to seed, etc, one leaf could be very low in alkaloids while another is very high.
yeah, i wanna put my life in the hands of a stone-age tribesman.
you are spreading romantiscience. The idea that intention can change the nature of poison. Thats pure romance.
why should this be a responsibility you would wish to take upon yourself? You don't seem to be of the mindset that you can go wrong with it if your intentions are "good" what do you do when a friend cuts themself or walks into a gorge. you can only be so careful. And there are risks. you should take into account that up untill now you have been uncharacteristically lucky. don't let it do to your head with its romantic allure.
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Drewwyann
Slayer of ticks
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Re: Datura question [Re: thedudenj]
#6890002 - 05/08/07 05:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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since when does ayahuasca's ingredients include datura and mescaline? or are you saying you added those on top of the normal ayahuasca?
-------------------- Anyone need a glass pipe? : http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002435158931 Love powerfully
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: Datura question [Re: Mitchnast]
#6890472 - 05/08/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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The sentiments you express smack of dominant-culture-chauvanism. It isn't 'romantic' to recognize that someone who has devoted thier life to understanding something will probably know more about it than someone who hasn't, whether they learned about it in university or in a small village in the jungle. You assume the inherent superiority of 'civilized' euro-american methods of learning, which is, frankly, an extremely patronizing and infantilizing attitude to hold towards people who live within traditional cultures. I'd trust a shaman (a real one, not a huckster that caters to tourists) to have a fairly thorough understanding of a tradition that has developed a context, as well as checks and balances for the use of sacraments. I also wouldn't assume that thier context would make any sense or be of any relevance to me or anyone else that isn't a part of thier culture, although I also wouldn't write off the possibility either.
I do agree that it is stupid to romanticize shamans. They aren't gods, they are just people like the rest of us. People who have a specific area of knowledge and experience that has become foreign to our culture.
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cpw1971
Mr
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 5,615
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Re: Datura question [Re: NiamhNyx]
#6890582 - 05/08/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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the thing with Datura is the Delerium. you dont know you even have a buzz. thats what gets people killed because they don't realize and take more. It is more like you are dreaming than having spiritual visions that offer insights ect... you will talk to old friends that arent even there instead of communicating with a spirit or entity in another dimension. the only reason you will trip is because you are poisoned and you wont realize you are tripping.
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ShroomOmatic
Ethno Apprentice
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Posts: 2,373
Loc: Sailing the Seas of Chees...
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Re: Datura question [Re: Nalim]
#6890644 - 05/08/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nast said: You will not get high that way.. And you shouldn't eat it either..
What you should do is this: Throw that shit away. Use the search post function and read up on what people has to say about datura. A hint: it wont be good things..
I agree. I hope you dont fuck around with Datura.
--------------------
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Neon
Stranger
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6890935 - 05/08/07 08:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Personally I've never tried datura, but I have smoked toe (Brugmansia suaveolens). I've smoked it 25 times or so, all from the same batch I bought from an ethnobotanical vendor I trust. First two times I smoked, I didn't feel anything. Every time after the first two the effects have been more obvious. The effects have always been predictable, there have been no surprises, and definitely no hallucinations or delirium. The experience is serene, somewhat subtle, and I would say recreational lasting about 24 hours. Overall I enjoyed it about as much as marijuana, and I do consider it a teacher plant. Only thing I remember not liking is my dreams became a bit darker. I have never eaten the plant and have no intention to.
I'm not suggesting that anyone smoke or eat any of these tropane containing plants. They can be very dangerous and unpredictable, I know my experience with them is out of the ordinary these days. There are much safer teacher plants available, lots of them. All that being said, I must say there is a big difference between smoking a pinch of datura leaf and eating a tropane salad. Here's a few tips for smoking:
If you harvest your own material use gloves, don't rub your eyes you don't want it in your eyes. When you smoke it make sure the smoke doesn't go in your eyes. Wash your hands after rolling a joint or handaling material. Harvest a big batch all at once, since the alkaloids vary depending on when they are picked. The alkaloids can differ from leaf to leaf or flower to flower, so blend all the herbs together into nearly a powder. This leaves you with a more consistent product that you can experiment with over time. Be careful when grinding the herb, you don't want the material going up into the air or in your face. Wash the grinder very well after use, or just by a cheap one you can throw away afterward. Use common sense when preparing material, especially if you have pets in the vicinity.
Be patient. The effects of tropanes can be very subtle and hard to recognize at first. Start very slowly, don't smoke to the point where effects are felt, this can lead to overdose. Smoke a bit, wait at least a couple days to see how you react then try again. It would be safest to experiment with an amount that produces no noticeable effect for awhile and then move up slowly. It should become easier to recognize the effects and measure doses over time. Tropanes can build up in the body over time so space out usage. In my experience tropanes increases the effects of THC, and THC enhances the effects of tropanes. Be very careful when combining.
Don't take any of this as gospel, I make no guarantees of safety, I'm not an expert with any of these plants. These are just some safety guidelines I use and I feel they are much better than no guidelines at all.
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Ikal
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 8
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Thanks for the advice and concern everybody, especially Neon. Firstly, I forget who said it, but not just amazonians used this plant: I happen to live in an area where datura was the only hard entheogen (to my knowledge): Southern Callifornia. Some natives are still here and I plan on consulting them before using it. Thanks for the info on the skin-rubbing thing, I might try that. But not soon, firstly because a decision like this should never be rushed, and secondly because I'd like to do it on its natural hour: full moon. Yes, I will have sitters who know whats up. For those concerned, I will detail my action plan as it is now: have a good sitter (Im a really small guy, it should only take one to completely subdue even a crazed and insane me) and small bit of dried leaf and take one hit. Then wait the 13 days that I have read it takes a small percentage of people to feel the effects (info from tea, but "an ounce of prevention" eh?). If I get nothing through then, then up the dose for the next time. If I get something, then I'll adjust dose accordingly. When 2-4 days after, I will calmly regard everything as unreal (yes, I can and have done this) I think the grinding thing Neon suggested was good, so Ill see what I can do about it. Also, the question I asked originally was never really adressed. Anyone?
Edited by Ikal (05/08/07 09:11 PM)
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AlephOne
Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 150
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6891787 - 05/09/07 12:19 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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To the best of my knowledge, atropine takes 2-4 days to degrade in your system, regardless of how it's administered. I would advise you to review some pharmacological studies on atropine, and in particular see if you can find some studies on long term effects of short term exposure. Additionally, you should review toxicology reports (many of which can be accessed through Google scholar). The point at which Datura will cause you to hallucinate is well into the dosage which the pharmacologists consider to be atropine toxicity. By the time you're seeing things, you're poisoned.
Tropane poisoning is serious business, and the variability of atropine concentrations in Datura (or any plant, for that matter) means you're playing a game of Russian Roulette.
My worst advice: Do some more research. My best advice: Do some mescaline instead.
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Hanky
wiffle bat.
Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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Re: Datura question [Re: Mitchnast]
#6891835 - 05/09/07 12:34 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mitchnast said:
you are spreading romantiscience. The idea that intention can change the nature of poison. Thats pure romance.
Some of the other advice in this thread is nothing short of criminal negligence.
-------------------- Coaster is an idiot... [quote]Coaster said: but i thnk everything thats pure is white? [/quote]
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Datura question [Re: Hanky]
#6894993 - 05/09/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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sigh yes even in south america cactus is used in ayahuasca ussually P torch or san pedro tho not common. what is almost as common as virdis tho is Burgmansia read up chap. any who i do like to not refer to my brew as ayahuasca the only reason i do is cause i use caapi and summon mama hausca. any who datura can be used safely and as i have said o too many times using it to get high isnt safe only under the guidance of a medicine man
-------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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meo
Stranger
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Re: Datura question [Re: thedudenj]
#6947072 - 05/21/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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mmm well datura would only be used rt if consum4ed by a shaman, Its not complete delirium either. You guys dont know what your talking about. It takes years of pratice to use datura right, its one of the most useful tools and also the shaman most challenging ethogen, actually ive heard thier favorite.They take these deullsional sequences, and try to interpt em, kind like there being comunicated with.Theres this legend about datura, you can find on myspace, it speaks about holding the sights of the people that first came amongest the earth and hid there sightings in this white flower, Datura. actually a witchcraft drug also Its also a door to the a dark place,the shadow world. I advice no one try it, because you wont be using it right. Ill give you a hell or mybe a heaven
Edited by meo (05/21/07 12:36 PM)
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
Posts: 8,656
Loc: Okanagan
Last seen: 14 days, 20 hours
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Re: Datura question [Re: meo]
#6947103 - 05/21/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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"They take these deullsional sequences, and try to interpt em" "actually a witchcraft drug also" "Theres this legend about datura, you can find on myspace" "You guys dont know what your talking about" "datura would only be used rt if consum4ed by a shaman" "Ill give you a hell or mybe a heaven "
what insights are you trying to impart here with these statements that you have made?
im not sure they should be trusted or even awknowlaged as "informed".
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meo
Stranger
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Re: Datura question [Re: Mitchnast]
#6947163 - 05/21/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I know very exprienced people and resources,there isnt alot of insight on it rather then people using it completely wrong. mmmm trying to look for this picture i once had, it symbolic to datura. Shows a dooor from a sunny field into a willow treee with this girl under it a very tainted place beyond the dooor. Your fears can be manifested into shadow people ,creatures. Going into a dark state. Kinda reminded me when i used come off meph i would see these shadow creatures and these fears were manifested in these visions and i could not help to be completely delusional and scared. They looked real, but thats meph,it only brings the worse of you and destroys what makes you ,you. why you gotta be a little hoe? :P dnt rly care if u believe me or not,your a fucking genius
Edited by meo (05/21/07 01:12 PM)
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Re: Datura question [Re: meo]
#6947666 - 05/21/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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transparent or what?
take it to the "spirituality and philosophy forum" where giving advice based on "legends, spirits, symbols, shadow people, and dream interpretation" actually count as "information"
I aggree theres no "right" reason or way to administer it. I just cannot aggree with your reasoning, because its all faerie talk and fancy. which i find interesting, but it's out of place as advice in this forum where deadly poisons are the subject.
Its cool I reckon, in the right context, but this is an advise thread, not a prosylitizing opportunity for some internet-spawned, loosely-historical religeon of the week.
and welcome to the shroomery.
Edited by Mitchnast (05/21/07 03:16 PM)
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Ikal
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/07
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Re: Datura question [Re: meo]
#6962283 - 05/24/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I thank you for the spiritual advice, but can you give me the information I was originally looking for? (ie. have you smoked or know someone who has smoked datura or related plants? If yes, how long do the psychoactive effects last with this method?)
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Ikal
Stranger
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Re: Datura question [Re: AlephOne]
#6962292 - 05/24/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlephOne said: To the best of my knowledge, atropine takes 2-4 days to degrade in your system, regardless of how it's administered.
What does that mean? Do you have a source for that?
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Re: Datura question [Re: Ikal]
#6963301 - 05/24/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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i smoked a little once, a few small puffs, diddnt do anything. i also know a guy who smoked the husk from an entire pod. also did nothing
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Datura question [Re: Mitchnast]
#6967557 - 05/25/07 10:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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datura is the shiznat all you have to do to use it right is make a shrine of it
-------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Hanky
wiffle bat.
Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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Re: Datura question [Re: thedudenj]
#6968180 - 05/26/07 02:04 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
thedudenj said: datura is the shiznat all you have to do to use it right is make a shrine of it
Tropanes are fake drugs that rely on delerium and poisoning to produce hallucinations.
-------------------- Coaster is an idiot... [quote]Coaster said: but i thnk everything thats pure is white? [/quote]
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Datura question [Re: Hanky]
#6968325 - 05/26/07 03:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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not if you dont consume it and just breath in the pollon my town dumb is infested with datura and no one knows here that they hallucinate off it each time they dump grass they cut from their lawns. it not deadly in low doses of pollon but can produce strong hallucintations
-------------------- "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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