|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
|
Re: RIOT! [Re: Ferris]
#6839593 - 04/27/07 01:33 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ferris said: You obviously don't know eastern europe very well

Look at his location.
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
|
as a matter of fact i happen to live in estonia so i guess i know "something" about easter europe. what happened here yesterday evening and this morning was a provocation "by" a few russians but not the russian people. these riots were caused by a handful of provocateurs. the russian politics against NATO countries and it's military base program (against NATO building defensive bases into poland and Czechoslovakia) is just taking a few new turns.
here's a short version of an unabridged history of estonia: after WWII the germans are getting their asses kicked and the soviets move in. during the brief time window both forces were out we declared OUR INDEPENDENCE. then the soviet forces (not russian) moved in, raped out people, sent them to siberia, killed our intellectuals and generally acted like monsters. after communism is forced upon they put up this statue for "soviet liberators". then, in 1991 when the soviet union collapses like a turd it is some statues remain (of course the lenin statues are torn down). this statue, called "the bronze soldier" celebrates the rapists, barbarians and killers that made up the soviet army. it glorifies the murdering of out grandparents and friends and familiy.
thus, when there was a plan to remove that statue radical russian hardtimers rebelled, especially ex-soldiers from the red army. they are radicals and DO NOT speak for the whole russian federation. i'm an estonian, but i'm a professional human person before that. that riot was caused by drunken russian youths who were being fed propaganda by extremist russian politics.
thus i do not support any "counter-attacks" by young estonian punks who think they are being "Patriotic". the police force handled the situation fine, everything is under control and more violence isn't going to solve anything.
--------------------
|
Psilocybeingzz


Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
b0red5tiff said: here's a short version of an unabridged history of estonia: after WWII the germans are getting their asses kicked and the soviets move in. during the brief time window both forces were out we declared OUR INDEPENDENCE. then the soviet forces (not russian) moved in, raped out people, sent them to siberia, killed our intellectuals and generally acted like monsters. after communism is forced upon they put up this statue for "soviet liberators". then, in 1991 when the soviet union collapses like a turd it is some statues remain (of course the lenin statues are torn down). this statue, called "the bronze soldier" celebrates the rapists, barbarians and killers that made up the soviet army. it glorifies the murdering of out grandparents and friends and familiy.
thus, when there was a plan to remove that statue radical russian hardtimers rebelled, especially ex-soldiers from the red army. they are radicals and DO NOT speak for the whole russian federation. i'm an estonian, but i'm a professional human person before that. that riot was caused by drunken russian youths who were being fed propaganda by extremist russian politics.
Awesome, thank you for posting that   It was interesting, and it appears that my grasp of the situation was pretty good after all. 
But ya, as I said already. What a fucking insult. That statue should have been gone a long time ago.
|
kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
|
|
Quote:
b0red5tiff said: as a matter of fact i happen to live in estonia so i guess i know "something" about easter europe. what happened here yesterday evening and this morning was a provocation "by" a few russians but not the russian people. these riots were caused by a handful of provocateurs. the russian politics against NATO countries and it's military base program (against NATO building defensive bases into poland and Czechoslovakia) is just taking a few new turns.
here's a short version of an unabridged history of estonia: after WWII the germans are getting their asses kicked and the soviets move in. during the brief time window both forces were out we declared OUR INDEPENDENCE. then the soviet forces (not russian) moved in, raped out people, sent them to siberia, killed our intellectuals and generally acted like monsters. after communism is forced upon they put up this statue for "soviet liberators". then, in 1991 when the soviet union collapses like a turd it is some statues remain (of course the lenin statues are torn down). this statue, called "the bronze soldier" celebrates the rapists, barbarians and killers that made up the soviet army. it glorifies the murdering of out grandparents and friends and familiy.
thus, when there was a plan to remove that statue radical russian hardtimers rebelled, especially ex-soldiers from the red army. they are radicals and DO NOT speak for the whole russian federation. i'm an estonian, but i'm a professional human person before that. that riot was caused by drunken russian youths who were being fed propaganda by extremist russian politics.
thus i do not support any "counter-attacks" by young estonian punks who think they are being "Patriotic". the police force handled the situation fine, everything is under control and more violence isn't going to solve anything.
best post I've read all week.
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
|
Quote:
Psilocybeingzz said:
Quote:
b0red5tiff said: here's a short version of an unabridged history of estonia: after WWII the germans are getting their asses kicked and the soviets move in. during the brief time window both forces were out we declared OUR INDEPENDENCE. then the soviet forces (not russian) moved in, raped out people, sent them to siberia, killed our intellectuals and generally acted like monsters. after communism is forced upon they put up this statue for "soviet liberators". then, in 1991 when the soviet union collapses like a turd it is some statues remain (of course the lenin statues are torn down). this statue, called "the bronze soldier" celebrates the rapists, barbarians and killers that made up the soviet army. it glorifies the murdering of out grandparents and friends and familiy.
thus, when there was a plan to remove that statue radical russian hardtimers rebelled, especially ex-soldiers from the red army. they are radicals and DO NOT speak for the whole russian federation. i'm an estonian, but i'm a professional human person before that. that riot was caused by drunken russian youths who were being fed propaganda by extremist russian politics.
Awesome, thank you for posting that   It was interesting, and it appears that my grasp of the situation was pretty good after all. 
But ya, as I said already. What a fucking insult. That statue should have been gone a long time ago.
most estonians, including my mother and father were calm and said that the statue doesn't really bother them, it's just a chunk of bronze and if no-one talks about it people will forget about - who cares about a few russian war veterans bringing flowers to it and drinking vodka there?
now it has gotten out of control there are more riots expected, there's nothing else on the news now.
NOW estonians are being attacked by insults saying we SUPPORT fascism, nazis and all that shit. well, this is just sad and insulting. anyone interested enough to look up the history of the baltic states knows we estonians have been conquered and enslaved by various nations for almost 800 years, but only the russians have been barbarians that act as animals without culture or respect, like orcs in LOTR.
and yes, when soviets went to war against the nazi goverment (not russians versus germans, but soviets versus nazis) then young men in this country gladly choosed to be enlisted in the nazi army solely to have revenge against those who had raped our freedom for ages. we are a small ass country, what were we supposed to do? i pray that no-one ends up in that situation. those forced into soviet military service were sent basically to the outer lands like siberia or work camps, because a third of the soldiers immediately defected to the nazi side anyway.
it is shameful. i don't hate russians, it takes too much effort. it's just that when a drunken, dumb mob fucks up the capital of your country because we say "the soviet army CONQUERED estonia, it didn't LIBERATE it, we would have chosen the germans because at least they were educated", every citizen tends to get a little pissed.
a great example of russian logic was demonstrated during the bird flu panic in europe, when they seriously wanted to use border guards to shoot down birds coming back from the south for the spring.
and there are more soviet soldiers graves in estonia, to which estonian news group went today LIVE and shoved that it was grown over with bushes and vines and no-one gave a shit about them.
this is madness and i wish western nations would take notice of it and would not go along with the hysteria.
sorry if i seem hysterical, but this is a sad day in this country.
--------------------
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
|
--------------------
|
Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,958
|
|
Riots are won in the media. Most protesters fail to see that, and think that "fighting the man" is the objective. Its not, in fact fighting the police/army only leads to tragedy.
It doesn't really matter what happens on the riot itself, it's the spin the media give it afterwards that counts.
The most powerful thing you can take to a riot is a camera, preferably a phone camera with which you stream your footage realtime, so that confiscation of the cam doesn't mean the footage is lost.
Go for powerful imagery.
This can be atrocity but something archetypal, a really powerful image that captures the situation, is much better:

You need to have an eye for it, and the luck to be in the right place at the right time.
Then when you get the footage and it is ALL THAT, distribute it on the internet. If its good stuff you can turn it in to Reuters and the like who can use it in their reporting of the riot, and send it to all possible media.
The most powerful thing you can take to a riot is a camera, be it photo or video. National and International media attention may ensue from the images you shoot.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
Re: RIOT! [Re: Asante]
#6856970 - 05/01/07 05:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
russian citizens promise "bloodshedding" in estonia on the 9th of march. there are rumors that russia will intervine with military force and that this will be the start of WWIII. they also say that not the UN or the EU will dare to help estonia and other countries will turn their cheek and ignore us.
you wouldn't believe the bullshit that has been flying from the russian goverment during the last half of the week. this is fucking sad.
--------------------
|
Individual
Bass Addict



Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 6,666
Loc: Reality Loophole
|
|
And all the time our government has tried to create somewhat social equality between estonians and russians who live here and are estonian citizens. Those fuckers don't know themselves what do they want. All the time they've been complaining about the life quality here, but if they're asked why don't they go living to Russia instead, they start to complain about the more-lower life quality of Russia. And if they're going to make some armed revolt I can't see how is that going to make their life better.
-------------------- THE PHILOSOPHY OF LIBERTY <---
|
boO


Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 5,364
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
|
|
yeah crazy rioting, fucking stupid nonsense over a statue...
i talked to my friend in tallinn and he was saying it was pretty crazy, but, i guess it's died down a bit...
oh well, i suppose a whole lot of finns are pissed off about the rioting, i mean, i bet a whole load of them wanted to buy loads of booze for vappu but couldn't travel to estonia because of it
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
Re: RIOT! [Re: boO]
#6857568 - 05/01/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
the finns are pissed because of it, yeah. for one, they can't get cheap booze and the second reason is the Winter War they were in against the soviets. they know what kind of monsters russians can be and we have full support of the goverment of finland and it's people.
btw now that the statue has been moved to a new public location (the cemetary of war casualties) russian embassadors still aren't pleased and say the statue was "cut apart" and was then "put back together". it's this great invisible crack on the bronze soldier that only russians can see but estonians and experts on metal and statues can't see. go figure.
--------------------
|
Psilocybeingzz


Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
a great example of russian logic was demonstrated during the bird flu panic in europe, when they seriously wanted to use border guards to shoot down birds coming back from the south for the spring.
!!!
Quote:
this is madness and i wish western nations would take notice of it and would not go along with the hysteria.
sorry if i seem hysterical, but this is a sad day in this country.
Do not apologize. I would be nervous about anything the Russian government says these days. Both near, and inside Russia, I would be worried.
They've gone in the same direction America has IMHO, with the loss of essential freedoms. Except in Russia it's more brutal and the people are far more repressed. And they don't just fuck with reporters, and hide news, like in America.... in Russia, and in fact outside of Russia, they will murder reporters, and dissenters.
Edited by Psilocybeingzz (05/01/07 10:27 AM)
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
|
that's right. they just shoot reporters in the head, stab them and etc. especially those who give accurate information about the genocide in chechnya.
it's worth noting that estonian WWII veterans have no place like the bronze soldier in russia. why? because you will be killed if you would honour anything but absurd soviet legends.
some useful comments i found on the net:
About the SS veterans: the ones who are generally respected are veterans of Waffen-SS or front troops who were officially given special status in Nuremberg Process. Mass murderers from both sides (Nazi and Communist) are definitely not respected. The problem is that while Germans have openly admitted and condemned the crimes committed by Germans during the WWII, Russians have never done that.
To clear another issue: the statue (singular indeed) has been relocated and was opened to the public yesterday. On May 8, a public ceremony celebrating the end of WWII is planned there with invitations to all anti-Nazi coalition members to participate.
While some people like to tout the statue problem, then how about these:
* Russians haved blocked the Estonian Embassy in Moscow. The building has been stained with everything possible, lately the flag was torn down.
* Russian Parliamentary delegation started its visit to Tallinn with demands of removing the Prime Minister. As already pointed out by many, not terribly diplomatic. As a result, Estonian ministers gave up their plans to meet the delegation.
* The damages in Tallinn amount to about 4 million Euros. Many stores were looted by Russian mobs (on Saturday I saw some youngsters peddling toothpaste from a sack half-price in a market - most probably looted from some shop).
* Russian state servers are being used to DDOS Estonian infrastructure, this has been on for a couple of days already. Also check Wikipedia, where articles covering Estonia are blocked for editing due to some Russian activity there.
* Russians spread the online letter calling up to destroy property and start 'armed resistance' (aka terrorism). See e.g. kavkazcenter.org for some English materials.
Not terribly civilised, I'd say.
Well, strictly speaking the Estonian SS members were resisting the Soviet Union (as distinct from Russia). Many members of the SS came from non-German ethnic groups, mostly motivated by a deep dislike of Bolshevism. These motivations are little understood or ignored thanks to the primary association of the SS with the crimes of the Nazis. Some of the non-German SS units definitely took part in such crimes, most notably the Ukrainian divisions, but I am not aware of the Estonian units doing so. They, much like the Finnish and Latvian divisions, were frontline units motivated by their experiences of Soviet actions at the start of the war (it's is often forgotten that after the occupation of Poland by the Soviets and Germans, and up until Barbarossa, the Soviets were not considered an ally by the British and French).
Regardless of this, the existence of an Estonian SS does not mitigate what the Soviet Union did to Estonia. The annexation at the start of the war was followed by mass arrests and deportations of political, business and cultural figures. This pattern was repeated at the wars end. This was not liberation, but reimposition of a repressive occupation. This was followed by many years of sporadic guerilla resistance, with small bands of Estonians attacking the Soviet forces from hideouts in the forests.
Finally, before apologists for the Russian minority in Estonia try to divert attention from the real issues, it's worth noting that in the last week the Russian government has requested taht foriegn students stay indoors in the run up to the date of Hitler's birthday. Why? Because Russian skinheads are yet again expected to celebrate the occasion by beating up foreigners.
--------------------
|
Psilocybeingzz


Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
|
Quote:
that's right. they just shoot reporters in the head, stab them and etc. especially those who give accurate information about the genocide in chechnya.
it's worth noting that estonian WWII veterans have no place like the bronze soldier in russia. why? because you will be killed if you would honour anything but absurd soviet legends.
Quote:
(it's is often forgotten that after the occupation of Poland by the Soviets and Germans, and up until Barbarossa, the Soviets were not considered an ally by the British and French).
Regardless of this, the existence of an Estonian SS does not mitigate what the Soviet Union did to Estonia. The annexation at the start of the war was followed by mass arrests and deportations of political, business and cultural figures. This pattern was repeated at the wars end. This was not liberation, but reimposition of a repressive occupation. This was followed by many years of sporadic guerilla resistance, with small bands of Estonians attacking the Soviet forces from hideouts in the forests.
Excellent info, all of it. But I find those two sections especially important IMO.
Keep us posted. and Good Luck. The last thing your country needs is another war with Russia.
Know that some of us in Canada care, and are paying close attention.
|
Bridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.




Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 20,010
|
|
basically the United States, NATO and EU have all given support to us and slapped Russia on the wrist. But Russian propaganda machine never stops.
The 9th of May is looming up ahead, on which some trouble is expected but Estonians mostly support their goverment and police force and are prepared.
--------------------
|
Merkin
neep.



Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 27,537
Loc: Ass Flavoured Pie Factory
|
|
what a fucking stupid gay reason to riot!?
there are many more important things to riot about... and thats just fucken idiotic.
we need real ANARCHY!!!
-------------------- Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!
|
RoachMan
Old Man




Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 2,083
Loc: Midwest
|
|
Quote:
NobodyCares said: That's really fucking intense dude. I think half my country would have a heart attack if anything even remotely close to that happened, much less go out to a BBQ the next day...
Oh! The power of super-uber-potent weed never ceases to amaze me.
-------------------- "The mistake that I make is to try to come awake in a place you're just supposed to get shit faced or baked."
|
|