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Offlinepscyanescens
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Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use?
    #6817952 - 04/22/07 03:18 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I am undoubtedly a beginner when it comes to chemistry. However, i do have a passion and interest in learning what it is i am doing on a scientific level.

I was wondering if anyone can tell me a fail safe way to determine what solvents i need to extract alkaloids of many different kinds. So far i hear about polar and non-polar solvents. I noticed that opium and marijuana require two different solvents and i wonder why it matters. Can someone help explain this to me. Mostly i am wondering if there is more to consider then polar and non-polar.


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InvisiblepB0t
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? *DELETED* [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6817974 - 04/22/07 03:31 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pB0t]
    #6817976 - 04/22/07 03:32 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I totally believed you could until i saw your username.


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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot

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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? *DELETED* [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6817981 - 04/22/07 03:38 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pB0t]
    #6817990 - 04/22/07 03:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I am quite jealous. WOW you must be really SMART!!!! I am so sorry you are a so much better then me other wise we might get along better. I guess i am just envious. Thanks for putting me in my place.



Anyways..... Can someone who is knowledgeable but not an asshole help me?


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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6818008 - 04/22/07 04:11 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pscyanescens said:
Anyways..... Can someone who is knowledgeable but not an asshole help me?




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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6818025 - 04/22/07 04:27 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

cat fight :rabidcatdog: hissssssssss


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Edited by DeathCompany (04/22/07 04:32 AM)

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Offlinefunnybunny
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6818033 - 04/22/07 04:31 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Take a lot of stuff to extract. Try solvents, and document which ones perform better. Publish. Everybody does that way.

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: funnybunny]
    #6818038 - 04/22/07 04:36 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

People already know because thees experiments have already been done. There is a reason people speak of polar and non-polar solvents, and i want to know how to determine which to use if you must use one or the other.

There must be a reason that polar solvents work for extracting some compounds but not others.


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6818059 - 04/22/07 05:02 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

it's pretty simple mate. this is an over simplified explanation:

non-polar solvents will extract non-polar compounds

polar solvents will extract polar compounds (there are varying degress of polarity- take an organic chemistry course if you want to learn how to tell if a molecule is polar and how polar, etc)

makes sense huh? polar compounds are soluble in polar solvents. and nonpolars are soluble in nonpolar solvents.





example: extracting DMT from an acidic rootbark soaked solution.

take your acidic rootbark soaked solution, which contains ionized DMT+. you wash this solution with a non-polar solvent, because DMT is polar in the ionic form.

this non-polar wash (defatting wash) takes all the non-polar compounds in the acidic solution and removes them when the two layers separate (the two layers being the acidic soln. and the non-polar solvent). the non-polar compounds go into the non-polar phase. your DMT+ stays in the acidic solution.

now that you've defatted, you free the DMT molecule of the H+ ion, by raising the pH of the solution with a base (like NaOH). You now have freebase DMT.

freebase DMT is non-polar- so now you can extract/wash the acidic solution with a non-polar solvent. this time the DMT will be extracted into the non-polar phase, because it is in it's non-polar freebase form.

evap in vacuo, then rxl. it. :tongue:


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: Teragon]
    #6818082 - 04/22/07 05:16 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah .. like dissolves like.

As for polarity, its to do with electronegativity. This determines where the dipole sits on a bond, and therefore whether its polar or not.

Water is a polar substance - it has a negative dipole on the oxygen and a positive on the hydrogen. If you were to place a halagenoalkane in water it would dissolve, as it has a polar bond. (nucleophillic substitution)

Electronegativity is to do with how much an atom attracts a bonding pair of electrons. Fluorine is the most electronegative element; making it very reactive - yet it also forms very strong bonds...


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"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6818132 - 04/22/07 05:47 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Polarity, solubility, and miscibility
Solvents and solutes can be broadly classified into polar (hydrophilic) and non-polar (lipophilic). The polarity can be measured as the dielectric constant or the dipole moment of a compound. The polarity of a solvent determines what type of compounds it is able to dissolve and with what other solvents or liquid compounds it is miscible. As a rule of thumb, polar solvents dissolve polar compounds best and non-polar solvents dissolve non-polar compounds best: "like dissolves like". Strongly polar compounds like inorganic salts (e.g. table salt) or sugars (e.g. sucrose) dissolve only in very polar solvents like water, while strongly non-polar compounds like oils or waxes dissolve only in very non-polar organic solvents like hexane. Similarly, water and hexane (or vinegar and salad oil) are not miscible with each other and will quickly separate into two layers even after being shaken well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_solvent#Polarity.2C_solubility.2C_and_miscibility

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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: Cepheus]
    #6818136 - 04/22/07 05:53 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

yea i know, i just didnt feel like typing that as well. unless you were just clarifying for the original poster.


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: Teragon]
    #6818151 - 04/22/07 06:04 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Teragon said:
yea i know, i just didnt feel like typing that as well. unless you were just clarifying for the original poster.




I was just expanding.. I know you know.. I was just adding. It helps to be able to tell what makes something polar :smile:


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

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Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: Cepheus]
    #6818206 - 04/22/07 06:41 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

yea it definitely does. unfortunately, i have the feeling the guy who wrote this post won't be able to get his head around electronegativity and dipole moments.

atleast not at this time. i reckon he wanted your nice simple answer "like dissolves like" :smile:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6818250 - 04/22/07 07:08 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Water and gasoline.

If it dissolves in water to some extent - use a polar solvent
If it dissolves in gasoline to some extent - use a nonpolar solvent

Nonpolar soluble compounds typically have a lot of C-H bonds (hydrocarbons)
Polar soluble compounds tend to have lots of C-OH and salts of C-N(R)2 bonds (alcohols and amines)


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OfflineHighTek
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: Asante]
    #6818627 - 04/22/07 10:04 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Geez...this guy don't listen...I have some e-books that will help him out. They cover the topics he talks about but he won't give me his email address to send them.

Forget it...

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Offlinepscyanescens
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: HighTek]
    #6819241 - 04/22/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

atleast not at this time. i reckon he wanted your nice simple answer "like dissolves like"




Actually i new that polar solvents dissolve polar compounds and visa versa a long time ago. I was actually wondering about the elctrogenativity and how it causes one compound to be poloar or non-polar. It still doesn't make complete sense to me, but some of thees answers will set me on the right track i am sure.

Thank you very much, Wiccan_Seeker, aManEater and Egodeath, this will help my understanding. I still need to do more reading, however you did all answer my question they way i expected it to be answered.

HighTek: You never asked for my email. I would really like to get some recommended reading material, i will PM you.


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"With an abundance of Cyanescens... i would never touch another Cubensis again."

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Polar and non polar solvents. How do you tell which to use? [Re: pscyanescens]
    #6864200 - 05/02/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)



I have a more comprehensive chart in PDF format. PM me and I'll hook you up with my FTP server.


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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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