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OfflinePed
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A Different Understanding of Consciousness * 1
    #6848091 - 04/29/07 02:28 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Some of the ideas here are borrowed from the mind of Alan Watts and other like-minded philosophers.

Conventionally, our understanding of consciousness is self-relative. We know ourselves to be conscious beings, and we derive our understanding of what it means to be conscious from our experience of consciousness. To some extent, we also look to animals for an appropriate definition of consciousness. Generally speaking, our inquiry stops at these objects of reference.

Consciousness is typically understood as a phenomenon which can be identified by observing a number of other phenomenon. On the most basic level, something which responds to it's environment in an organized fashion is said to be conscious. We call this awareness. Somewhat more advanced is the ability to evaluate input before choosing a course of action. We call this foresight. Most sophisticated of all is the ability to question one's own origins, and to ascribe some justification or purpose to one's own existence. We call this sentience. Any phenomenon which exhibits this behavior is generally understood as "alive" and undergoing the experience of consciousness.

There is debate over whether or not plants are deserving of the title "conscious beings". There is some evidence that suggests plants respond well to highly articulated sounds, such as words or music. We reason that since you and I appreciate music, and we are conscious beings, then it follows that plants which respond well to music must be, on some level, conscious beings. Light, like sound, is a form of energy, and we can readily observe that plants will carry out some very sophisticated actions in pursuit of it. Does this mean that plants possess consciousness?

I would say yes. Does their behavior indicate consciousness of the same sophistication as human beings? Certainly not. I cannot have a conversation with my plants, and I'm fairly certain that they are rather ignorant to my moods. However, simply because something is not as sophisticated as a human being does not mean that they do not share some of the same characteristics as a human being.

I contend that any phenomenon which responds to other phenomenon demonstrates consciousness, and that the sophistication of this consciousness is directly proportionate to the complexity of their interaction. For example, if you strike a rock, you hear a sound. Without personifying the rock, we can say that the rock is responding to energetic input with energetic output, and that this resonance is a very rudimentary form of consciousness. Since all phenomena are constantly involved in interactions with other phenomena, it follows that all phenomena are conscious, in varying degrees of sophistication. This would seem to imply that consciousness is not something exclusive to highly complex phenomena such as the human brain, and that in fact it is a characteristic of reality itself, in the same category as energy, gravitation, matter, and so forth.

I would further contend that "complexity" and "sophistication" are subjective terms, to be correctly understood within the context of time. The brain is an amalgamation of comparably simple phenomenon which occurs over a very short period of time in universal terms. This is the only criteria by which we have concluded that the brain is a complex, sophisticated phenomenon. Should a brain's less sophisticated characteristics develop over a very long period of time, say, a millenia, we would compare it to a kind of fungus or bacteria; it would be very unremarkable.

The universe itself is an extraordinarily complex interaction of phenomena which has occurred over an almost incomprehensible period of time. If we were somehow able to experience the totality of time elapsed since the beginnings of the universe, I think we would discover that it is a burgeoning, surging expression of consciousness. The universe is, itself, a conscious entity, alive, just like you and I. It is not, as popular thinking seems to understand, a random collection of essentially lifeless objects and aimless phenomenon. The ramifications of this, if true, are unbelievably enormous.

This idea is not a novel one, nor is it unpopular. There is, however, very little reasoning to lend the idea an amount of substance. I have attempted to present some of that reasoning with this post. Thanks for reading!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Ped]
    #6848110 - 04/29/07 02:41 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
There is debate over whether or not plants are deserving of the title "conscious beings". 




Yeah, I was going to point you to that thread until you said that. :grin:

Anyways, excellent post. I need to finish reading it first, but I already know that it is a due comment. You seem to disappear for awhile a lot. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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OfflinePed
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6848119 - 04/29/07 02:45 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I've been working on this little gem:



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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Ped]
    #6848132 - 04/29/07 02:50 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

That picture reminds me of playing Morrowind so many years ago... :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Ped]
    #6848506 - 04/29/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I contend that any phenomenon which responds to other phenomenon demonstrates consciousness

My iPod responds to other phenomenon like the pushing of its buttons.

Is my iPod conscious?

How about a rock which responds to other phenomenon, breaking into pieces when struck by a hammer.

Is a rock conscious?

Is there ANYTHING that is not conscious?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6848590 - 04/29/07 07:28 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

nice gem
but about consciousness.
I am conscious, but my finger which is just a part of my body is not conscious in itself.
the notion of entity is required.
as for complexity, that is not enough
sensation is required and persistence of sensation is required with memory and referencing or association.

I most simply describe a conscious entity as

a locus that smears sensation and memory together linking aspects and events/over time.


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6849509 - 04/29/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Is there ANYTHING that is not conscious?

No. :tongue2:

Quote:

Ped said:
I contend that any phenomenon which responds to other phenomenon demonstrates consciousness, and that the sophistication of this consciousness is directly proportionate to the complexity of their interaction. For example, if you strike a rock, you hear a sound. Without personifying the rock, we can say that the rock is responding to energetic input with energetic output, and that this resonance is a very rudimentary form of consciousness. Since all phenomena are constantly involved in interactions with other phenomena, it follows that all phenomena are conscious, in varying degrees of sophistication. This would seem to imply that consciousness is not something exclusive to highly complex phenomena such as the human brain, and that in fact it is a characteristic of reality itself, in the same category as energy, gravitation, matter, and so forth.




Great post Ped!

Diploid, how can something respond to a stimulus unless it is *aware* that a stimulus is occurring?


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: SoY]
    #6849585 - 04/29/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Diploid, how can something respond to a stimulus unless it is *aware* that a stimulus is occurring?

Awareness requires a running memory so that when the thing is not in your immediate field of perception, you remember it. When it comes back, you interact with it in the context of prior interactions. Something that was previously pleasant illicits an appropriate response; same for something that was previously unpleasant.

If a thing always interacts with EVERYTHING as if it is the first time being encountered, that is not awareness. That is blind, unthinking, stimulus response.

A rock and a hammer are not aware of each other even though the hammer smashes the rock. Next time, the rock fragments will interact the exact same way, and the hammer will smash them into smaller fragments.

A dog and a cat ARE aware. They do more than blindly interact. They interact in the context of past interactions. THAT is awareness.

Is there ANYTHING that is not conscious? No.

Then what's the point of calling anything conscious. That's redundant. It's like going around saying that things exist. If it applies to EVERYTHING, why even point it out?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6849620 - 04/29/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Diploid, how can something respond to a stimulus unless it is *aware* that a stimulus is occurring?

Awareness requires a running memory so that when the thing is not in your immediate field of perception, you remember it. When it comes back, you interact with it in the context of prior interactions. Something that was previously pleasant illicits an appropriate response; same for something that was previously unpleasant.

If a thing always interacts with EVERYTHING as if it is the first time being encountered, that is not awareness. That is blind, unthinking, stimulus response.



This seems a rather absurd assertion. Are you saying that someone with Alzheimer's does not possess awareness, while a computer program can?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6849632 - 04/29/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
A rock and a hammer are not aware of each other even though the hammer smashes the rock. Next time, the rock fragments will interact the exact same way, and the hammer will smash them into smaller fragments.




I dunno~ man, my rocks run and hide when I go in for a second hit....!  :tongue:


>^;;^<


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Ped]
    #6849912 - 04/29/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

This theory does seem to imply that any measurable interaction of matter would be defined as "consciousness."

What of the idea that consciousness is the result of some variety of critical mass: a level of living, changing, cellular complexity at which the individual stimulus-response interactions cooperate to produce something more?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6849934 - 04/29/07 03:50 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

critical complexity
specifically to the point where associative memory can be formed and can have an effect.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6850004 - 04/29/07 04:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Hm...this could relate to the earlier question regarding Alzheimer's & whether a patient with degenerating capacity for memory can be defined as "conscious." The critical mass of their cellular complexity can no longer effectively cooperate.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Silversoul]
    #6850468 - 04/29/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Are you saying that someone with Alzheimer's does not possess awareness

Generally, someone with advanced Alzheimer's is not aware, no, though they can experience brief periods of lucidity during which they ARE aware.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850472 - 04/29/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Generally, someone with advanced Alzheimer's is not aware, no, though they can experience brief periods of lucidity during which they ARE aware.




How have you determined that they are not aware?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850494 - 04/29/07 06:27 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

They seem to remember with the greatest perfections things from the past though.
That sounds like awareness to me :shrug:


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
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Here is true peace
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Bathed in your sighs

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850523 - 04/29/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

How have you determined that they are not aware?

Well, if you wanna get all solopsist, then I don't know.

But from their lack of response to their name being called or to their friends or family trying to interact with them, it's reasonable to think they're not aware.

Advanced Alzheimer's is characterized by dementia.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850538 - 04/29/07 06:36 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It seems you equate memory with awareness. My computer has memory. Would you say that it has awareness?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850547 - 04/29/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Hm...this could relate to the earlier question regarding Alzheimer's & whether a patient with degenerating capacity for memory can be defined as "conscious." The critical mass of their cellular complexity can no longer effectively cooperate.




the complexity is there but new growth is not happenning, so they still interact, and experience things but they suffer the inability to accrete new associations into the bedrock of their stream of consciousness, but they can work with old associations creatively.

new associations last ever so briefly (5 minutes or less)

I think they are conscious and entitled to the rights of conscious people, they are also capable of evaluating situations and answering important questions if those questions are phrased generally and delivered quickly.

anything 5 minutes old does not exist it is a short stream of consciousness with a long ancient history.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Silversoul]
    #6850550 - 04/29/07 06:41 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Memory is just part of it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850561 - 04/29/07 06:44 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
How have you determined that they are not aware?

Well, if you wanna get all solopsist, then I don't know.




Its a valid question regardless of what one might label the act of asking it. :grin:

You can't assume that there is not awareness within them and then state that you don't know. :tongue:

Quote:


But from their lack of response to their name being called or to their friends or family trying to interact with them, it's reasonable to think they're not aware.




Ahh, but one's recognition of the pattern in their environment that one associates their sense of identity with does not pertain to whether or not one is aware. I'm certain we could program a computer to detect a pattern in a soundwave it receives through a microphone and to respond in a specific matter when that voice pattern is detected. Awareness simply isn't part of the equation as far as response to one's name is concerned.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850568 - 04/29/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

You can't assume that there is not awareness within them and then state that you don't know.

I can't know that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't hiding in my closet either. But it is reasonable based on the evidence that I DO know about, to conclude that he's not in my closet.

While I can't know what goes on in the head of an Alzheimer's patient, their unresponsiveness leads to the reasonable conclusion that they're not aware.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850587 - 04/29/07 06:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

the stream of consciousness is a conditioned thing.
it is conditioned by input reacting against the aggregate of previous conditions (input and memory).
non-alzheimers patients stream conditioning is vital and continues to change modifying how they react in the future to input.
alzheimers sufferers are also in a conditioned stream but the new conditioning never stiffens up, it is very real to them but their sense of continuity in the stream is shorter.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850595 - 04/29/07 06:56 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You can't assume that there is not awareness within them and then state that you don't know.

I can't know that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't hiding in my closet either. But it is reasonable based on the evidence that I DO know about, to conclude that he's not in my closet.

While I can't know what goes on in the head of an Alzheimer's patient, their unresponsiveness leads to the reasonable conclusion that they're not aware.




very advanced alzheimers is what you are referring to,
some are in constant shock, but are still aware and very frightened.
some are lost to dreams but are still vehicles for conscious events.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850609 - 04/29/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

If Alzheimer's patients were not aware, I suppose one could stab them with a knife, and they would not react to it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Silversoul]
    #6850697 - 04/29/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

In the most severe cases this could be true. The body systems might have a reaction without the person being conscious of it. It's really hard to tell unless you're there.

Use your mind, or lose it.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Silversoul]
    #6850715 - 04/29/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I've heard that one of the reasons Alzheimer's patients are put into 24-hour care facilities is that they do not react to being hurt or being in danger.  They get injured & do not notice or tell anyone.  This means that they must be in a VERY safe environment with near-constant supervision.

Sounds like a lack of awareness to me.  :shrug:  Or, at the very least, a loss of connection/reaction to the present events in their lives.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #6850725 - 04/29/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I think what it comes down to is that there is no effective way to test for consciousness. We assume that if some living thing reacts to stimuli that it is conscious, but we have no way of truly knowing. Consider the case of a zombie. Metaphysically speaking, a zombie is someone who looks like a conscious human being, acts like a conscious human being, and can even say "I am a conscious human being," but is not conscious. How would you be able to tell such an entity from a conscious human?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850727 - 04/29/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

'Who are you again?' ~ Al Z. Heimer


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Silversoul]
    #6850733 - 04/29/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah!  And vampires seem to be conscious, yet they are not alive!

But zombies always stick their arms straight out in front of them, which makes it easy to tell they are zombies & not conscious humans.

Oh, wait...there are no such things as zombies or vampires. :sad:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850776 - 04/29/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, wait...there are no such things as zombies...




Really, check out a room full of cubicles and their inhabitants in a typical corporation.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850778 - 04/29/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Oh, wait...there are no such things as zombies or vampires. :sad:



I'm not talking about movie zombies.  I'm simply talking about people who behave in all the ways you'd expect a person to behave, but are not conscious.  And frankly, how could possibly know whether such people exist or not?  You may see such people on a daily basis and not know it.


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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6850784 - 04/29/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Or how about a Baptist church.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6850786 - 04/29/07 07:53 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I've already noticed the resemblance...why do you think I'm self-employed? :eek:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Silversoul]
    #6850790 - 04/29/07 07:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Oh, wait...there are no such things as zombies or vampires. :sad:



I'm not talking about movie zombies.  I'm simply talking about people who behave in all the ways you'd expect a person to behave, but are not conscious.  And frankly, how could possibly know whether such people exist or not?  You may see such people on a daily basis and not know it.




OH!  I see.  You meant Wal*Mart shoppers!  :smile:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850811 - 04/29/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Fireworks you stay out of this now. It doesn't concern you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850814 - 04/29/07 08:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
OH!  I see.  You meant Wal*Mart shoppers!  :smile:




Admittedly, sometimes I wish I could simply plow them under and not look back. :mad:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850825 - 04/29/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It would take too long for all that fat to break down. You couldn't use that soil for a long time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #6850831 - 04/29/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

What are you talking about, "soil"? We have scrubbers, a guy with a mop, and buffers for that type of situation. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850833 - 04/29/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I have not been to Wal*Mart for quite a while, and tend to visit about twice a year.  The last time I was there, I was astonished at the incredible number of obese, dazed-looking, extremely slow-moving people who crowded nearly every aisle.

Dawn of The Dead Bargain-Hunters!  :eek:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850859 - 04/29/07 08:16 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

But don't feel bad Fireworks, I go there often and I'm losing weight.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6850863 - 04/29/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, that's an unfair stereotype, unless, of course, people in your area generally display those characteristics.

The sheer diversity in customers is amazing. I'm getting sick of it, though. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850887 - 04/29/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, all that monotonous diversity must really get boring after a while, eh? :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6850913 - 04/29/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

According to your discipline of thinking, only humans can experience awareness. And according to your logic, humans who are not mindful of their behavior have no awareness. You're entitled that point of view, however, it seems like a selfish way to view the Universe and other living things. Sounds derived from the ego.

According to my train of thought, awareness is any sort of interaction with the environment whether it be a cause/effect or response/stimulus event. Being mindful is a practice that cultivates a heightened sense of awareness by realizing the subtly and the depth at which all things interact. So in my view, equating an Alzheimer's patient to a human being possessing no awareness is very egocentric.


--------------------
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my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6850923 - 04/29/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

In my area?  You mean...America?  :lol:

I'm not sure if the local Wal*Mart even stocks clothes in sizes smaller than XL.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6850932 - 04/29/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Then would equating awareness to a rock be anthropomorphic?:D


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6850938 - 04/29/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

So when I mix vinegar and baking soda, they are demonstrating their awareness by reacting to each other?

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #6850959 - 04/29/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

In my opinion, yes a rock is alive. Who said anything about it possessing human-like qualities?

And yes, Veritas. I believe any sort of interaction denotes an awareness of some sort. Just because we cannot identify with it, does not mean it is not alive.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Edited by psyka (04/29/07 08:44 PM)

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6850977 - 04/29/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)


In my opinion, yes a rock is alive. Who said anything about it possessing human-like qualities?


Awareness is a human-like quality.;)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #6850985 - 04/29/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

According to your anthropomorphic discipline.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6850989 - 04/29/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

and according to your egotistical one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6851000 - 04/29/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

In my opinion, yes a rock is alive.

Merriam-Webster on "aware":

2 : having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge

When you observe a rock, what leads you to think that it has realization, perception, or knowledge?


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851003 - 04/29/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It exists, and reality is awareness.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851006 - 04/29/07 08:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not bound by the dictionary.

However, is bacteria alive? How about virus? Where do you draw your line?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6851008 - 04/29/07 08:52 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It exists, and reality is awareness.

Well, then you're making up your own definition for the word. I'm using standard English.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851017 - 04/29/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Its not my fault that those who standardized the definition of the word were not of a higher degree of awareness themselves, subsequently more understanding of the nature of reality.

Do you know how a single word can have multiple definitions? Like 1., 2., and etc. Well, I'm adding another one. It will be numbered 8., because that is my favorite number. :lol:

I'll elaborate on my definition later. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6851018 - 04/29/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not bound by the dictionary.

How are we to communicate if we disregard the accepted definitions for the words we're using?

However, is bacteria alive? How about virus? Where do you draw your line?

We're not discussing life, we're discussing awareness. See, this is one of the problems that occurs when people start making up non-standard definitions for words that already have established meanings.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851024 - 04/29/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well, you quoted me saying a rock is alive. My definition of awareness is interaction.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6851029 - 04/29/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
It exists, and reality is awareness.




Quote:

Reality

1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual
3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4. That which exists objectively and in fact





"Awareness" may be your definition of reality, or your perception of reality, but that does not make it a factual definition for the rest of us.

It is circular reasoning to say that everything is aware because awareness is what composes everything.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #6851039 - 04/29/07 09:01 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Life is circular, with no perceivable beginning or end. Mwahahahahaha!


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6851045 - 04/29/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Well, you quoted me saying a rock is alive.

Oops, my bad. I read "aware" where you wrote "alive".

The rest of my points stand.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6851077 - 04/29/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Its not my fault that those who standardized the definition of the word

The standardization isn't done by someone. It's done by all of us through consensus of usage. Dictionaries only report on that consensus.

Anyway, I have no way to communicate with you guys if you're going to insist on making up your own definitions for words because I can't ever be sure what exactly you're saying to me.

Guess I'll go to bed then.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851096 - 04/29/07 09:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Good galoshes to you, Diploid!  Pleasant spelunking, and don't let the slithy toves bite!  :grin:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851117 - 04/29/07 09:21 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

The topic is "A different understanding of consciousness."

I gave you my different definition. If you can't work with it. I'm sorry :frown:

I don't believe there is a magical element to life... in fact, I think its just the opposite. Life is just complex interaction formed through a process of billions of years. The interaction implies awareness, a greater interaction implies a greater awareness.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: psyka]
    #6851147 - 04/29/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I also suspect there is an awareness to everything. But I would never dare post it here.:rofl2: Veritas would beat me about the head and shoulders.(verbally of course)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #6851173 - 04/29/07 09:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Spousal abuse of men is one of the most underreported crimes in America. You are safe here. Speak it brother.

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Icelander]
    #6851228 - 04/29/07 09:46 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I also suspect there is an awareness to everything. But I would never dare post it here.:rofl2: Veritas would beat me about the head and shoulders.(verbally of course)




Can I watch? :naughty:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6851253 - 04/29/07 09:50 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

consciousness is subjective and relative in my opinion. everything is just energy. certain arrangements of particular amounts of energy lend to higher plains of consciousness (eg, humans).


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Syle]
    #6851268 - 04/29/07 09:53 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Indeed.
Energy = information = awareness


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #6851303 - 04/29/07 10:03 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Its not my fault that those who standardized the definition of the word

The standardization isn't done by someone. It's done by all of us through consensus of usage. Dictionaries only report on that consensus.




I realize the nature of how definitions of words get published in the dictionary. I specifically referred to those who standardized the word. Maybe you thought I was simply speaking of the publishers of the dictionary? I was referring to those who assigned the meaning to the word through their usage. :tongue:

Quote:


Anyway, I have no way to communicate with you guys if you're going to insist on making up your own definitions for words because I can't ever be sure what exactly you're saying to me.




Well, how will a new meaning for a word ever become consensus if it is not used in that context? You're an obstruction to the evolution of the English language. :hehehe:

Why can't you become aware of exactly what it is that I am expressing for you to contemplate? Words themselves do not convey much meaning as it stands. Asking probing questions and interpreting context from what else has been expressed are good approaches to developing that understanding.

In this manner, discussion is not simply an elaborate act of putting together puzzle pieces cut and pasted from the dictionary. :craven:

Quote:


Guess I'll go to bed then.




I'll join you in a moment. :naughty:

:lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6852552 - 04/30/07 05:05 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

To elaborate on my original post, we can turn to other complex systems such as the stock market to gain certain insights. The stock market has grown a sufficient amount that we may refer to it as it's own phenomenon. While human beings contrived it's existence, it's originators have deceased, and no one human being can be said to be orchestrating it's continuation. It possesses a degree of volition. Now, a quick study of the numbers will illustrate that the stock market undergoes periods of time which can be identified with such words as "temperamental", or "relaxed". Now, it would be absurd to suppose that the stock market is a sentient being experiencing different emotional states. However, it is plain to observe that the stock market responds to the fluctuations of it's sustaining conditions in the very same way fungus or bacteria respond to changes in ambient temperature. If a total human contrivance such as the stock market can, within the briefest snapshot of time, begin to exhibit these determinable life-like characteristics, is it so unrealistic to suppose that life itself is an emergent property of interrelated phenomena, and that since all phenomena are interrelated, all phenomena are alive?

A school of fish move as one body. This body is a large-scale and therefore coarse representation of other, smaller scale, more phenomenologically dense bodies. A great number of highly sophisticated events occurring together over a short period of time become a unified event -- distinct, but not separate -- exhibiting comparably less sophistication when observed over a longer period of time.

A single vibrating piece of horse hair resonating in wooden basin is an unremarkable event. Add three more strings to the instrument, three more instruments to the quartet, and the complexity and sophistication of technique and articulation, and suddenly you have emerging from these simple phenomenon something which is far greater than the sum of it's parts: music.



>> What of the idea that consciousness is the result of some variety of critical mass: a level of living, changing, cellular complexity at which the individual stimulus-response interactions cooperate to produce something more?

"I contend that any phenomenon which responds to other phenomenon demonstrates consciousness, and that the sophistication of this consciousness is directly proportionate to the complexity of their interaction."

Directly proportionate is the key here. Rather than trying to nail down a condition whereby complexity is sufficient to sustain or produce consciousness, I'm saying that consciousness is something inseparable from, and in fact a characteristic of, all phenomena of all degrees of simplicity or sophistication.


>> the notion of entity is required. as for complexity, that is not enough sensation is required and persistence of sensation is required with memory and referencing or association.

Well, this is the standard view, yes. This view implies that consciousness is a characteristic unique to sentient beings with clear awareness, memory, and the capacity to interpret events. Any phenomenon which does not exhibit this behavior is, under the classical model, "unconscious", and is seen as inert material.

What I'm suggesting here is that there is no inert material. There is no phenomenon which is bereft of consciousness. If you're able to consider that our self-relative understanding of consciousness is not necessarily the final truth on the matter, you will be able to see that this is not a far-fetched idea.



>> So when I mix vinegar and baking soda, they are demonstrating their awareness by reacting to each other?

They would demonstrate awareness of proportionate sophistication to the chemical and physical dynamic of that interaction. It is not necessary to personify vinegar and baking soda to posit that their interaction is reflective of some rudimentary manifestation of consciousness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Ped]
    #6852576 - 04/30/07 05:23 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

is there a moral achievement in widenning your definition of consciousness beyond the idea of entity?

when inebriated, I often assume that every thing that arizes has a conscious nature, and I am inclined to give it berth and the same respect i can grant to any creature, but I think this is more due to being immersed in my own conscious resonance to such a degree that all distinctions become futile.

the idea of political power, for instance, turns the whole nation into an entity - extending the president beyond his skin into a near god like formation. An analogue to this is that I am conscious but my finger is a mere extension, not conscious in itself - the president is conscious but we are mere fingers to the body of the nation.

perhaps my finger is conscious and has some rights, I certainly admire it's dependability and would not want to harm it, but we never get into any maningful discussions together. Maybe it's me.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Syle]
    #6853124 - 04/30/07 09:34 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
consciousness is subjective and relative in my opinion. everything is just energy. certain arrangements of particular amounts of energy lend to higher plains of consciousness (eg, humans).




Speculation on energy being conscious is also subjective. I may suspect it but that may just be my fancy. It's great as long as I don't state it as truth as some do here; in ignorance IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: A Different Understanding of Consciousness [Re: Ped]
    #6853145 - 04/30/07 09:42 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I have for a long time suspected you to be correct. I'm just waiting for further evidence. Unfortunately I don't have a strong background in science or education in general. (self educated outside of school and family) Yet I always looked at it simply and perhaps naively. Atomic particles make up everything including things that have consciousness. It followed intuitively for me that everything contained then, consciousness.

Great post by the way and lots of good ideas.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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