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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6832846 - 04/25/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

BrainChemicals writes:

Quote:

Like FS said, you still have to bring SOMETHING into this argument besides your amateur conjecture.




The thing is, saying the results prove there is no such thing as volition is also conjecture. It is not the only explanation which fits the data.

The results of the experiment can be explained assuming a lag in "reporting". The design of the experiment does nothing to explain the reason for the lag, it merely measures the lag between two events -- a spike on an EEG tracing and a finger hitting a button. As well, it is entirely possible more sensitive equipment would report multiple spikes at differing times, with the first spike representing a readying to decide, and the final spike representing the decision itself.

And even then, the same experiment run with more sensitive equipment still cannot explain the significance of the spike(s) -- ANY of the spikes -- it can merely report their existence. It is up to reviewers of the data to hypothesize the significance of each spike. Some reviewers propose one possible explanation, other reviewers propose a different explanation. Which explanation is correct? It is impossible to say conclusively with this data alone. Perhaps neither explanation is right.

To claim the data proves there is no such thing as free will is an enormous stretch. Not even Libet went that far.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: Diploid]
    #6832940 - 04/25/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Diploid writes:

Quote:

Alright. Point taken. I'll see if I can find more recent experiments along the same lines. But arguing that somehow will and conscious awareness of the will are separate things is absurd, and that's what you and BlueCoyote are arguing.




No, it is not absurd. I suggested you read the rest of the article I linked for a reason. The various implications of neural lag have been examined by more than Libet. The author of the article at the link brings more ideas to the table. See his description of a tennis match.

When I read the bit about tennis players, I was reminded of an article I had read a few years back explaining how given the proven existence of neural lag, the ability of professional baseball players to not just hit a pitch, but to hit it accurately enough to direct it (not always successfully, mind you) to various parts of the ballpark seems on paper an impossible feat. The article then went on to explain how this apparent paradox wasn't a paradox at all, but I admit I can no longer remember all the details of the explanation. I do remember it involved no violation of the arrow of time, nor did it involve predestination. When I read the author in my linked article talking about a similar situation re tennis players, a lot of it was familiar, but it wasn't nearly as lengthy or detailed as the explanation given in the baseball article. I'm pretty sure the baseball article was also from some neurological journal or magazine, but I'm not ready to swear to that. I'll see if I can find it again.



Phred


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: Diploid]
    #6836942 - 04/26/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The brain is not soo much a linear processor, as it is a parallel one.
We only slowly come to the conclusions that bear understanding of those specific 'time marks' in the brain.
'Understanding' itself seems like multi orchestrated conclusion patterns over the brain with different synchronistaion codes.
I think, this experiment is very interesting, and will become even more interesting with more precise instruments and more precise experimentation settings, BUT it can't locate origins of 'will' in a brain yet. Maybe it occurs out of some resonance of some patterns, maybe there's a spontaneous firing of some miraculous brain region or cell, maybe there arise many 'measured' potentials and only some lead to an release of the action of will.
I am interested in scientific exploration of this case, too :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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