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Offlinestickyicky13
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
    #6852807 - 04/30/07 07:58 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You cannot think this is a deep question from a mushroom trip....

that's the kind of thing 12 year olds ask their church leader!


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
    #6852821 - 04/30/07 08:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

God created himself out of nothingness, that is why he is God.

Or maybe God wasn't created at all but has been around from the very first moment.


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Offlinestickyicky13
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: gregorio]
    #6852832 - 04/30/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't believe in non-existence.

I believe there is no "higher power"
we are all part of the same energy.
Which has ALWAYS existed.

therefor we are all a little part of what you might call "God"

There is no great being above us.


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: stickyicky13]
    #6852870 - 04/30/07 08:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

While I believe in God I also can believe in what you said. Kind of like we are all a part of the Great Spirit.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
    #6854423 - 04/30/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ThePyschonaut52 said:
This question came to me on one of my mushroom trips a while back. I think i was remembering it from a family guy episode, but still, who created god?




I do not understand why this question ever emerges. God in most contexts is the Ground of Being which is a priori, eternal, infinite, uncreated. God is sometimes used in juxtaposition with the word Godhead and although definitions vary from tradition to tradition, the Godhead is the utterly transcendental Reality about which nothing can be posited, while God refers to THAT with attributes. Hindu theology refers to Godhead and God as Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman, respectively.


Creation indicates limitation in terms of form. Form requires extension. Extension requires a matrix in which dimensionality can emerge: point -> ray ->
plane -> solid -> ? It all harkens back to cosmology whence the matrix of creation - space-time - emerged from a singularity (zero dimension). Rays of energy emerging omnidirectionally from a point, created (theoretically) a rapidly expanding sphere. Expanding into what? Expanding as the Infinite Density of the Ground of Being retracted, creating a 'vacuole' into which space-time could manifest, omnidirectionally engulfed in Deity!

Infinite Being, Infinite Mind. Mindblowing to contemplate it is. :eek:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6854767 - 04/30/07 06:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting indeed!


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: gregorio]
    #6857552 - 05/01/07 09:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Silversoul raised a very interesting idea, but i believe the whole deal has to do with division rather than subtraction. As Markos referred, this reality emerged from a point of singularity. This point managed to hold the entire matter and energy of this universe. Therefore, by division, the universe expanded through out nothingness, lowering its vibration as it evolved.

What about god ? You might ask ... Well, my opinion is that god is the creative mind, he/it/she was the catalyst, the one that pushed the button so this universe, this reality, could be created. If not, who or what created the singular point, or even better, who or what conditioned the expansion of this universe ? Creation doesn't occur by chance - it might be a very complex set of variables involved, but it's not by chance -, much less its origin.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineAstral Piper
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
    #6867266 - 05/03/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Aristotle has a famous treatise known as "The Uncaused Cause."

For Aristotle, the existence of the universe needs an explanation, as it could not have come from nothing.

There needs to be a cause for the universe.

Nothing comes from nothing so since there is something there must have been some other something that is its cause.

Aristotle rules out an infinite progression of causes, so that led to the conclusion that there must be a First Cause. Likewise with Motion, there must have been a First Mover.

Therefore, the existence of God as the First Cause of the universe makes sense using Aristotelian logic.


--------------------
Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:



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Offlinejustin340
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: ThePyschonaut52]
    #6878109 - 05/05/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i agree with lots of what's been said here's maharshi's take on it "God, guru and self are one" just as a turtle pulls back into it's shell all things animate from the self and are never seperate from the self, the self is eternal and real, the ego is abscent in the dreaming statee and deep sleep state upon waking what actually happens is the ego falsely identifies with the body and thinks teh world real. Much like a person watching a movie thinks the itmes moving on the screen are real when in fact only the screen (true immortal self) are real. In this metephore our wakign consciousness creates the world much the same way that dreams are created by it but not considered real, or hullicinations from lsd are considered unreal but experienced. It's just attachment to the physical plane of reality as opposed to dreams, that makes the world seem separte form teh self and our self as seperate from god. He answers the question "who experiences the world" and suggest people tracing back the orgin of thought with the exercise "who am i?" where one will realzie that only the unchanging immortal soul full of bliss and awarness is eternal and now and the rest is merely pictures on teh screen. Since the past and time is esentially unreal, what holds the world together and causes everything to not fly apart? is another good question LIke when your tripping really hard and everything appears as pure energy, or white light and no body awareness is present, what causes individuals to slip out of that state and become aware again of the body and world? This is probably a concept hard to understand and almost impossible to put into practice, for me anyway. Why would someone have to have created god? even if you believe that everything came from nothingness. the nothingness didn't need to be created, the creation of matter, would make that nothingness real. God is always here in his formless nature the alpha, omega, as it was in the beggening so will it be in the end, timeless eternal, unchanging, ect. the root of the tao is described as quietness. Something like "here it is eternally quiet, nothing ever really happened nothing, nothing will ever happen, there's nothing to experience, and no one to experience it anyway, oh well, no mind, no matter, no matter, never mind." taoism. LIke waking up from a dream the world will dissapear and no longer be needed. "can what has no start really have an end." I'd bet this is how it'll happen. Your vintage point sees the world as seperate form the self and real, therefore you assume it has a beggening. this isn't necessarily true.


--------------------
"Miracles will happen as we trip." Seal
"Born with insight and a raised fist...Action must be taken. We don't need the key we'll break in. rip the stage, rip the system I was born to rage against 'em. What? The land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy? I've got no patience now so sick of complacence now. know your enemy! Those who died are justified. we gotta take the power back! Some speak the sounds but speak in silent voices. transmissions bring submission. For Jesus blessed me with its future and I protect it with fire for it's the end of history. Sleep now in the fire! There's a right to obey and there's a right to kill. The jury's sleepless we found your weakness and it's right outside our door. Now testify." R.A.T.M


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OfflineKingkole
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: justin340]
    #6878999 - 05/06/07 01:29 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think in that jehova, when taken as a whole is beyond the very concept of time.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: justin340]
    #6879319 - 05/06/07 05:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

paragraphs, please please please


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineZaprabe
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Astral Piper]
    #6881330 - 05/06/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Astral Piper said:
Aristotle has a famous treatise known as "The Uncaused Cause."

For Aristotle, the existence of the universe needs an explanation, as it could not have come from nothing.

There needs to be a cause for the universe.

Nothing comes from nothing so since there is something there must have been some other something that is its cause.

Aristotle rules out an infinite progression of causes, so that led to the conclusion that there must be a First Cause. Likewise with Motion, there must have been a First Mover.

Therefore, the existence of God as the First Cause of the universe makes sense using Aristotelian logic.





The universe is not a discrete material entity in the same way that you or I or a planet are. The universe is simply the set of all things which exist. Under the "logic" you have put forth, something would have to exist before the set of all things which exist. That is utterly nonsensical. Causation is something that happens in the universe, not something that happens to the universe.

If God didn't need a cause, then why does the universe? God is any easy explanation to put forth as the "First Cause" when you define God to be the "First Cause." At best this an unparsimonious explanation of the universe.


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OfflineAstral Piper
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Zaprabe]
    #6893575 - 05/09/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I was only trying to offer some material for discussion, which is why I qualified my final sentence. I think that Aristotle's thesis is still the basis for defense by the Church of Rome when the question of God's existence is posited. I think it is beautiful in its simplicity, but you are right to question the very premises upon which he bases his argument.


--------------------
Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:



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OfflineAstral Piper
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Zaprabe]
    #6893626 - 05/09/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, after thoroughly reviewing your post (I apologize for not doing so before answering earlier) I am going to challenge your challenge.

(1) You use the word "logic" in quotations and in fact qualify that by asserting that this is my logic, with the obvious inference that my logic is somehow not logic. In fact, please note that this is not my logic, but Aristotle's. Also, please note that his logic follows the classical definition of a logical argument (with premises and a conclusion) which is convenient, since Aristotle first defined the classical logical argument. If you're going to challenge Aristotle's ability to construct a logical argument, that's OK, but others more familiar with Aristotelian logic might take issue with your argument.

(2) You try and parse the argument on semantic detail, differentiating between "in" and "to" as two states of universal causation. I can't argue semantics or metaphysics, but I would submit that the metaphysical components of existence trump semantic detail in this instant, so my rebut would be that "in" and "to" are a subset of the state "is" and therefore interchangeable for the purposes of this argument.

(3) The word "unparsimonious" is incorrectly used in this context, I think. To be parsimonious is to be selfish and cheap; to be unparsimonious is to be generous and giving. What exactly are you trying to say?


--------------------
Syd Barrett at his final appearance with Pink Floyd on December 22, 1967:



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OfflineZaprabe
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Astral Piper]
    #6894078 - 05/09/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You seem to have offered a version of the cosmological argument for the existence of God; that is, God is a necessary being. Kant's critique of the cosmological argument is almost universally accepted by philosophers.

Existence is not a predicate.

Classical logic has limitations, which is something that should be apparent to anyone with formal training in logic beyond an elementary level. Aristotle is a very important figure in philosophy, but we've come a long way since his time. Anyway, here's a simple critique of the cosmological argument:

"Being is evidently not a real predicate, that is, a conception of something which is added to the conception of some other thing." In other words, existence is not a property than something either possess or does not. Something must exist before it can be said to possess any sort of property whatsoever. "Being" is not something which could be added to the concept of a thing; it is simply the positing of that thing.

Take, for example, the proposition that "God is omniscient." This contains two concepts: God and omniscience. Each of these picks out an object. The word "is" adds no new predicate to the subject; rather, it posits the predicate in relation to its subject.

So, if we take the subject (in this case, God) with all of its predicates (i.e. omniscience, etc.) and make a statement such as "God is" or "There is a God," we are not attaching any new predicate to the concept of God, but are positing the subject in itself with all of its predicates. In other words, to conceive that S is P does not imply the necessary existence of S. A proposition such as this requires a conditional necessity: something must be shown to exist before predicates could be stated of it. No predicate can, by itself, assert the existence of the subject.

The argument you have presented treats existence as a predicate, a property of something. This would entail that some object could be picked out which containes the property of 'existence.' Likewise, it entails that some object could be picked out which does not contain the property of 'existence.' It should now be obvious why this cannot be so, for this implies a contradiction.


Also, you do not have a correct understanding of the term "parsimony" as I have applied it. Parsimony is essentially the application of Occam's Razor. This is often naively interpreted as the idea that the simplest answer is the best answer. This is incorrect. The most parsimonious answer is one that explains some phenomenon or observation by envoking only the concepts which are necessary to adequately explain it. So, if X can be explained by A, B, and C, then there is no need to envoke D in your explanation. When I say that "God" is unparsimonious, I mean that it not necessary in the explanation of the universe. If the universe can be explained without envoking God, then there is no need to add God to the equation because, by defintion, you are adding another causal influence.


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Offlinemesoamerican
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Zaprabe]
    #15285272 - 10/27/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I believe it is something our minds will never understand.. In our sober lives.. we don't know shit. All we know are stupid theories but the question of who created god is never answered.. Like a loop hole that our minds cannot answer.. While on drugs or in an altered state of mind, we have a sense on how it might have been created but the answers are difficult to remembere when we are sober again.. And then we're stuck right where we were in the beginning with an unaswered question.. I believe when we die, we might have a better clue.. unless we reincarnate right away to something else. I believe we are all god.. but how did we created ourselves if the question...


--------------------
Hi. Just want to make friends.


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Invisibleskuzzy1232
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: stickyicky13]
    #15295419 - 10/29/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

stickyicky13 said:
You cannot think this is a deep question from a mushroom trip....

that's the kind of thing 12 year olds ask their church leader!






and why could he not get this from a shroom trip??? Its a logical question and for you to be condescending like that ....never mind not worth it.


--------------------
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8468463
Have any questions comments PM me ill try to help out the only stupid question is the one you dont ask .


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Astral Piper]
    #15296553 - 10/29/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Astral Piper said:

Aristotle rules out an infinite progression of causes, so that led to the conclusion that there must be a First Cause.quote]

Why does he rule out infinite causes? Any reasoning to that?


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15297518 - 10/29/11 10:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness is "god" and consciousness has always existed.




I'm tempted to disagree and say God has concciousness but that does not mean God is consciousness, God is the source of consciousness.. but I dont know about saying he is consciousness. Apparently in the "beyond-beyond" state of God, God is neither conscious nor unconscious.. I'v always found that idea fascinating because as a person I know I am limited to my mind.. my experience, I know we all like in terms of opposites, consciousness or non-consciousness, one or the other, what about the middle way. Interesting to think about how there are so many degrees of consciousness.. what does .001 percent consciousness look like? perhaps an rock.. or atom? Does it make sense to say God is neither consicous nor is he unconscious..?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Offlinehatsom_gotem
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Re: if god created everything, who created god? [Re: soldatheero]
    #15298325 - 10/30/11 05:10 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i may be completely wrong when saying this, but to say that S is P, isn't sufficient in providing grounds for the existence of S, couldn't the same then be said for P?

we are a fucking paradox.
our entire unexplained existence is a contradiction.
we say there are rules like gravity and time, but then we say that the experience might be an illusion, that consciousness transcends these rules at some point, or can do so already, or that we know nothing at all, we are a random outcome of the random nothingness.

i believe in a creator, because we as humans are flawed. human nature is flawed. and that is a sign of design. there are limits to our form, so far as we know. shit consciousness is a flawed experience, if it was perfect, we would've never questioned it to begin with. i think of the deity as the old master, the old designs and old ways, the old consciousness. a new consciousness will be necessary at some point, so in other words, a new "god" at some point will have to spring up.

consciousness is evolving and changing, i can say that based on my own experiences alone.


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