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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinetools_n_corpses
why did i choosethis name
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Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6805340 - 04/18/07 07:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

He claimed to project his thoughts/ideas to people who were talking on the radio apparently about philosophy/existence. Saying he was "controlling their minds" is just a way to deliberately miss the point and insult Mike. Sure, what Mike is saying is not something I'm just going to accept, but I'm not going to flat-out the deny it, and I'm especially not going to feel defensive about it. Why would I?

See what happens when you become more aware of things is you realise you have nothing to lose by making certain connections. You're not 'embarrassed' to think mystically, and as a result many ideas that are true, false and inbetween start to flow.


--------------------
"Misery only doth exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; naught save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.
"


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: tools_n_corpses]
    #6805348 - 04/18/07 07:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not saying that he was necessarily wrong in his views, but claiming that he was "articulate" is just untrue. He was downright incoherent for much of the interview.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6805571 - 04/18/07 08:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

it stars saddam: He was downright incoherent for much of the interview.

Do you think it would be reasonable to suggest that the statement "he was incoherent" is the equivalent of "I didn't understand him"?


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6805910 - 04/18/07 09:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You've gotta be joking. Am I the only one that heard this guy claim to telepathically control the people on the radio?




Yea hes pretty dillusion. Maybe because hes interpreting the fact that he can form an opinion in their minds with his words hes somehow considering it mind control. He could view it as if their in some low-level hypnotic state. Did he say specifically he was "telepathically controling" or did hte filmer? The filmer trys to get him to sound crazy throughout the video.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6808562 - 04/19/07 02:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

spiritualemerg said:
it stars saddam: He was downright incoherent for much of the interview.

Do you think it would be reasonable to suggest that the statement "he was incoherent" is the equivalent of "I didn't understand him"?




Understanding doesn't happen when we turn our attention to an individual's "logic"
unconditionally. Understanding is a relationship to many individuals, and requires communion of thinking
and speaking. If you take the normative communion away you have word salad, regardless of how
much "sense" the individual seems makes in regard to what we presume is happening in their head.
If you put understanding on the level of the individual then understanding is not understanding
anymore and looses its meaning; so maybe you're talking about something other than understanding.

I suppose you just do or don't understand this:


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6809769 - 04/19/07 08:11 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Lakefingers: Understanding is a relationship to many individuals, and requires communion of thinking and speaking.

Agreed. It doesn't surprise me that I would understand a great deal of what Mike is saying, after all, there is a common ground. What does surprise me is the number of respondants to this thread who can also self-identify with elements of Mike's experience. Perhaps this is not surprising in a forum devoted to exploring altered states of consciousness.

However, there are a few respondants such as it stars saddam and yourself who find what Mike has to say to be utterly foreign and incomprehensible to them. What is or is not comprehensible is a matter of self-perception, therefore I'm inclined to think neither of you personally identify with any aspect of Mike's experience -- there is no common ground that links your experience to his.

Lakefingers: If you take the normative communion away you have word salad, regardless of how much "sense" the individual seems makes in regard to what we presume is happening in their head.

I could accept that like it stars saddam, what Mike has to say makes no sense to you however I wouldn't call it "word salad".

Quote:


Word salad is a string of words that vaguely resemble language, and may or may not be grammatically correct, but is utterly meaningless. An example of word salad would be: Tramway flogging into my question, are you why is it thirty letters down under jelly, what is it.

Source: answers.com





It seems to me that Mike was quite capable of expressing his understanding of his experience, even when asked leading questions by the interviewer. The fact that not everyone can identify with that kind of experience or speak that particular language is another matter entirely.


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6809977 - 04/19/07 09:27 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Perry’s work in traditional psychiatric settings led him to conclude that those in the thrall of an acute psychotic episode are rarely listened to or met on the level of their visionary state of consciousness. Instead, every imaginable way to silence the patients – to ignore and to disapprove of their nonrational language and experience – was called into play, thereby increasing their sense of isolation, alienation, and so-called madness. (Although the book was first published in 1974, things have not substantially changed in state mental hospitals or in community residence settings.)

Source: The Far Side of Madness






From a conversation in another cyber galaxy...

    Imagine that I was to travel to a foreign country that was very different from my birthplace. I would be surrounded by new sights, smells, tastes, feelings and people speaking a foreign language. Would I be correct in assessing those events as delusional or would the real problem be that I don't speak the language and I don't understand the culture? I think this is the real problem. The people around an individual going through an experience of psychosis have never been to that "country" and they do not speak the language. The "country" of psychosis does not adhere to a linear framework; the language of schizophrenia is metaphor.

    I wanted to come back to this because it's really central to the experience of psychosis. It's said that people going through psychosis have lost touch with reality; they see, hear, taste, smell, and feel things that those around them do not see; these things are therefore classed as "delusional" and "not real". The primary purpose of treatment in this culture is to bring an end to the delusions and thus, restore the individual to the reality that others see, hear, taste, smell and feel. If an individual has been restored to this state of "normality" they can be considered to be "responding successfully to treatment" although not "cured".

As a sidenote, it never fails to surprise me how many professionally trained psychologists and psychiatrists I run into who believe the following statement is true: There is no recovery from schizophrenia.

Is it any wonder that Westernized cultures have the lowest rates of recovery?


See also: Dr. Daniel Fisher: Healing & Recovery Are Real


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


Edited by spiritualemerg (04/19/07 10:45 PM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6811410 - 04/20/07 03:40 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)


No, I did not imply that I did not make sense of him, nor did I say that his words are
"foreign and incomprehensible". What I wanted to discuss was the nature of understanding.
But now that you have made an ad hominem attack on me I shall return you the favor. I
interpret your reaction as
part of what I see to be a snide quest to disregard anyone (via ad hominem attacks) who disagrees with
your pretentious (in the etymological sense of the word, not so much the polemical) regime of
hypotheses about spiritual crises.

Additionally, I found that I followed everything he said--i.e. that I made sense of it. However, it is clear to me that
he's incapable of describing his experiences in different voice, as a person with a less fragmented mind can do.

Besides, we're all here because we are aware that there is something peculiar about his mind.

Also, understanding is something different than making sense of, getting it, etc--it needs more
stringency. Because I think I seem to agree and understand Mike Wood does not mean I do--and considering the
circumstances, if I met him, he must be able to clearly express his ideas without shouting them out,
pacing back and forth, with full awareness of his body motions....(it's obvious that this man's nervous system is
under a lot of stress and that is the split he's experience between body and mind (thought and action), and thought
and language (fragmented language, etc). I doubt Mike Wood, despite that he is clearly able to communicate with others,
even in a philosophical way, has the capability to make himself understood. Additionally, he
lacks the ability to entertain more than
one perspective (which is tied to his apparent psychosis and fragmentary hysterics of thought) and fails to
explain why it is important for the "They" to diagnose him. Yes, he may be right that there is a tendency to suppress
people that think differently, but the person that is mentally sound can make sense of that -- both according to their own
beliefs while also entertaining rational insight about the motivations of the They, despite what they think about the They.

Apparently we have different interpretations of word salad. As I see it that definition gives a more
clinical correctness (bleh) to my label "word salad". There is one thing I don't agree with in that definition
though: that any string of words would be utterly meaningless. As someone wrote above: you can
string together any words and it would make meaning at least for a few.

Green blue of monkey wombs are what I'm missing since the big cheese, you know, everyone else is missing that. Or even:


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6811800 - 04/20/07 07:36 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Lakefingers: No, I did not imply that I did not make sense of him, nor did I say that his words are "foreign and incomprehensible". What I wanted to discuss was the nature of understanding.

Quote:

Understanding doesn't happen when we turn our attention to an individual's "logic" unconditionally. Understanding is a relationship to many individuals, and requires communion of thinking and speaking. If you take the normative communion away you have word salad, regardless of how much "sense" the individual seems makes in regard to what we presume is happening in their head. If you put understanding on the level of the individual then understanding is not understanding anymore and looses its meaning; so maybe you're talking about something other than understanding.




Your words did not give me the impression that you understood Mike Woods. As for me, not only can I understand him, I can also understand that his experiences are consistent with numerous other individuals who have gone through a similar process and I can map his experience onto a model of specific behavior, i.e. Perry's. In short, I can understand his experience across a spectrum.

But now that you have made an ad hominem attack on me I shall return you the favor. I interpret your reaction as part of what I see to be a snide quest to disregard anyone (via ad hominem attacks) who disagrees with your pretentious (in the etymological sense of the word, not so much the polemical) regime of hypotheses about spiritual crises.

*scratching head* I don't think I've ever been called snide before.

I do know that I don't have much patience with professionals who go around telling schizophrenics they'll never recover, and I do know that when working with schizophrenics one of the first things you have to do is to begin overturning those "expert opinions of incurability" that have frequently been internalized when in a very open and vulnerable state, and I do know that had he been given a different kind of care, you and I, and countless other strangers, likely would not be having this discussion related to the extent of his "schizophrenic" state that has been openly circulated on the internet. If that makes me "snide" in your perspective, then that's what it makes me in your perspective.

Because I think I seem to agree and understand Mike Wood does not mean I do--

That seems a reasonable assessment. Just because we "think" we understand what it's like to live in someone else's shoes doesn't mean we do.

... if I met him, he must be able to clearly express his ideas without shouting them out, pacing back and forth, with full awareness of his body motions....(it's obvious that this man's nervous system is under a lot of stress and that is the split he's experience between body and mind (thought and action), and thought and language (fragmented language, etc). I doubt Mike Wood, despite that he is clearly able to communicate with others, even in a philosophical way, has the capability to make himself understood.

The key words in your statement seem to be these ones: if I met him because those relate to your identified expectations of such an encounter.

Overall, I think Mike's ability to make himself understood depends not so much on him as on those he's surrounded by. I don't know why Mike is pacing or shouting out his words -- it could be that it's the first time anyone has ever asked him his opinion and after 40 years, he's got a lot to say; it could be that he's intensely frustratred by his inability to wrap his mind around his experience and society's response to it; it could be that he had four cups of coffee that morning... What I do know is if you sit down with a "schizophrenic" and you talk with them one on one in a respectful manner, pretty soon, they start to sound just like any other person, albeit, a person who has been through an intensive and difficult life experience that is frequently poorly understood by those around him/her.

As a parallel, many years ago I found myself in the position of being the first person a rape victim spoke to following her experience. If I had not known and accepted that she had just undergone a traumatic experience, her words and behavior might not have made sense to me. Her account of that experience was delivered in fragments that could hardly be pieced together and punctuated by sobs, withdrawn silence and angry outbursts. An ordinary conversation? No. But when placed within context it was quite understandable.

Apparently we have different interpretations of word salad.

Apparently we have different interpretations of more than the phrase "word salad". I would hope you're able to see that a difference of interpretation, experience, or perspective is not synonymous with an ad hominem attack.


See also: Coming off Zyprexa, HOW?

Music of the Hour: Somewhere Out There



.


Edited by spiritualemerg (04/27/07 01:36 PM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6814740 - 04/21/07 04:13 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Seems like we're talking by one another. I've been talking theory, you've been talking
practice. Of course, if I start the conversation with a philosophical point (understanding)
it'll seem like I don't make sense of the man in the video, because from that perspective my
view is irrelevant. I also started with the theoretical point, because I felt I had nothing to
add to the opinions already said in the thread, and that it might open the duality (sense or nonsense)
of the thread up to that point.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6814750 - 04/21/07 04:19 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Lakefingers: I've been talking theory, you've been talking practice.

That seems fair enough -- "talking past one another" -- it happens. If one listens closely, value can be found in each perspective.

Regards,

s_e


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


Edited by spiritualemerg (04/21/07 04:26 AM)


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
Stranger

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
Re: intresting interview with a schizophrenic [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6815495 - 04/21/07 12:30 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)


backfromthedead, soulcircus and johnnyjonjon (get some sleep!!!) ... I've learned a little something from each of you -- thanks for sharing your stories. Feel free to wander through my blogs anytime and to share the urls around as you see fit.

Otherwise, my reason for being here was of an explicitly stated and limited purpose: I was here for the "psychotics" and not much else. I feel I've left some good links behind, maybe a way for people to find some assistance and insight if they should require it. I'd like to think there will be no more Michaels, no more Isaiahs but I'm probably not going to get my wish. For those of you who are "dabbling" do take care.

Thanks for the hospitality. Silence calls.



.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


Edited by spiritualemerg (04/29/07 07:33 PM)


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