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OfflineAlaastaxana
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Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 4
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
"Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..."
    #5992477 - 08/24/06 12:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hello All,
I've been lurking on these boards for a long time and have never before had any reason to post anything, as that the wealth of information here is so incredibly informative I have been able to answer ever single question I've had before ever having to ask it!

Until now. I have finally reached a quandary I am unable to solve.

I have ongoing issues with casings becoming contaminated with what I believe to be 'Cobweb' mold. The tops of my casings regularly become covered in a very thin covering of almost invisible web-like networks of what am certain is mold. As the mycelium begins to knot and pin, the pins become draped with tiny strands of very fine filaments of this stuff. It looks like a spider web was dropped pancake-style on top of each casing, eventually, about the time the veils begin to tear, the casing will develop a very faint dusting of grayish spores; I am certain they are not coming from the fruit. So I know of H202 treatment but am reluctant to spray pins with it - as that the infection seems to repeatedly show up right at the time of pinning. I have tried killing it off after the first flush as well with H202 at 3% and it generally returns. So thats not working.

Anyway, this sounds like another 'Help! I have cobweb mold!' question, but I put the above description in just in case someone may say "Dude, you're off the mark, its dust mites or something, not cobweb", etc.

My real question is whether or not anyone has tried methods similar to those used by commercial mushroom growers to control similar problems. After having done some research off-site, I learned that commercial growers use a chemical fungicides when watering their casings - fungicides which are apparently toxic to certain molds but have negligible impact on mushroom mycelia. See:

Chemical and Biological Control of Mushroom Pests and Diseases

The one that struck me as potentially useful is the fungicide Sporgon (prochloraz-manganese)...

"by far the most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing. Growers often comment that they feel that applications of this fungicide may reduce yield. A series of trials were done to determine whether various rates of the fungicide applied either as a drench or incorporated in the casing may have phytotoxic effects on mushrooms. Only the highest rate of incorporation i.e. 9.6 g/m2 significantly reduced yield by comparison with untreated. This is eight times the recommended rate. This shows that the fungicide has no phytotoxic effect at normal rates..."

So has anyone tried this as a tool to combat casing contaminations while in fruiting chamber?

Has anyone tried a different chemical - i know there are a number of different 'designer' fungicides on the market for this purpose?

How different is the biological makeup of P.C. vs. other edibles, commercially grown? i.e., just because it works for reishi does it work for P.C.?

How toxic is this stuff (to people)?

Buy Sporgon?

Sorry for such a lengthy post.

Huge Thanks to those of you who regularly take the time to post your findings, experiments, and knowledge!

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Invisiblemonstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work

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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay Flag
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: Alaastaxana]
    #5992576 - 08/24/06 12:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

your fresh air exchange is most likely the problem

your air is not circulating and flowing enough.

cobweb cannot survive in a correct environment,
which you don't have most likely.

get that air flowing.

you spray the entire casing surface with peroxide out of the bottle?
with no results?

up the air exchange!



instead of pumping chemicals into your grow,
you need to focus on getting your technique correct.

I have no need for any of that stuff,
and neither do you.
you just don't know it yet.

time to learn a bit more about optimal parameters.


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OfflineAlaastaxana
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Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 4
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: monstermitch]
    #5992816 - 08/24/06 02:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I am aware of the problems caused by limited air flow in the terrarium and I don't think it is the problem, let me describe my terrarium:

I use a plastic closet setup, commonly referred to as a "Martha" for lack of a better term. I have taken great care to keep this unit extremely clean, it is well sealed and, IMO offers few vectors for contaminants.

To elaborate:

If you follow: to aerate and humidify, I have a hepa filter with UV sterilizer unit, the air output of which I capture and feed the clean air into a 18"x24" plastic/Tupperware box via flexible dryer vent hose, so that the plastic box is basically 'pressurized' by the hepa/UV blower, with some excess clean air leaking out the sides. Inside this plastic box I have an 'AeroSwiss' ultrasonic humidifier, which contains both a colloidal silver 'stick' and which incorporates a boiling chamber to further control contamination growth. The output from the humidifier is piped directly into a 1.5" diameter clear vinyl tube which is run out through the top of the Tupperware box and in to the terrarium. If you can picture this setup, basically, the only way for the air to exit the pressurized box is THROUGH the humidifier, out the vinyl tubing and on to the terrarium. So if you can imagine, the hepa unit pressurizes clean air around the humidifier (the inside of the plastic box), the air is then humidified and passed into the plastic closet terrarium, which it in turn actually pressurizes as well. So the effect is that the 'Martha' actually blows up like a balloon (a little). Theoretically, the air in the terrarium should be all only filtered air and water which has been sterilized by the colloidal silver and boiler in the humidifier. The air flow is sufficient for me to feel a constant spout of humid air coming out of the little hole where the zippers meet on the front of the plastic closet. If I open a zipper I am met with a nice rush of cool moist air as the pressure in the terrarium drops. Does that make sense?

So I dont think its an airflow problem, I have a lot of control over how fast air is pushed into the terrrarium via the hepa blower, just by changing the setting dial on the unit between low, medium and high; the different settings effect the humidity as well, as that it changes how fast air is 'blown' through the humidifier. I also have control of that via changing the settings on the humidifier itself, though its kind of inconvenient because its inside the Tupperware box. I tend to run it pretty wet, about 98% rh. Maybe I should reduce the humidity.

I just found more good info on commercially used chemicals...

Products Approved for Use in Mushroom Growing

Product Name PCS No. Function
Bavistin DF 90220 Fungicide
Dimilin 2L 01283 Insecticide
Dimilin WP - 25 91648 Insecticide
Disolite 91981 Disinfectant
Kapchem Carbendazim Flowable 91757 Fungicide
Nemasys M 92079 Insecticide
Sporgon 50 WP 91288 Fungicide

Growers are advised to check the web site regularly as the products listed may change.

From:

http://www.teagasc.ie/newsletters/2004/mushrooms-200405.htm#approved

Any other ideas? Has anyone used any of these?

Thanks!
Alaastaxana

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Invisiblemonstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay Flag
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: Alaastaxana]
    #5992912 - 08/24/06 03:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you are way off base man.

fruiting chambers are not sterile, nor will they ever be.

a sealed martha is for sure lacking in fresh air exchange.

that is your problem.


open the door to your martha.
calm down with the sterile air thoughts,

and give those poor mushrooms some air.

you don't need/want your martha to be under static pressure.


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OfflineAlaastaxana
Stranger
Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 4
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: monstermitch]
    #5993131 - 08/24/06 04:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

MonsterMitch, thanks for your response;

I do certainly understand that terrariums are not and are not intended to be a sterile environment, did not mean to imply that I thought my terrarium was sterile inside, but I do believe in keeping the environment inside as clean as possible. Filtered air and anything which kills microorganisms, spores, etc, in the water used to humidify and the air used for exchange is good IMO. One less vector.

Well, I don’t see how it can be a deficit of air exchange - the stock opening on the top of the hepa unit is about 10x6 with an area of about 60 square inches or approx 0.42 square feet, through which the unit delivers about 140 CFM of air flow on its highest setting. By reducing the available flow area to the area of the 1.5" diameter vinyl tubing (with Pi=3.1416), A = 1.77 square inches or 0.012 square feet, I have reduced the air flow to only 2.86% of its original capacity, or almost exactly 4.00 CFM. The terrarium's air volume is (60"l x 20"d x 72"h), or 48 cubic feet. So based on a total air flow in of 4CFM, the air in the terrarium is completely replaced every 12 minutes - well above the 1-3 exchanges/hr recommended in Paul Stamets’ books. DISCLAIMER: ALL VERY FUZZY MATH!!!

Even taking into consideration the fact that I can see sides of the plastic 'balloon' out a little bit, indicating that the actual air flow capability of the system is being further hindered while escaping from the various venting locations around the zipper holes and seams of the terrarium, etc - the air exchange would still be well within the recommendations.

When I said the terrarium was fairly well sealed, I really meant to indicate that its A)not a wind-tunnel and B)does not have any opening I can see where spores born on the air of the room could just waft in and land on the casings...

Anyway, back to my original question -

Does anyone have commercial production experience - any experience using the products listed below? How about accessibility - where can you get some? I would like to experiment!

Bavistin DF 90220 Fungicide
Disolite 91981 Disinfectant
Kapchem Carbendazim Flowable 91757 Fungicide
Sporgon 50 WP 91288 Fungicide

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Invisiblemonstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay Flag
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: Alaastaxana]
    #5993141 - 08/24/06 04:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

whatever.

let me know how it goes.


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Offlinefree_refil
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Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 6
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: monstermitch]
    #5993478 - 08/24/06 06:19 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, your description sounds just like spores falling from the mushy's onto your casings. Also, shouldn't the RH for fruiting be lower than 98%? I had a freak out with my first grow, had spores falling onto other fruits, and I thought I was getting some type of black mold. It was only the spores, though... Also, PICTURES WOULD HELP!!!!

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: free_refil]
    #5995909 - 08/25/06 12:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Cut a few more slits in your greenhouse so it doesn't balloon out at all. With a turbulent breeze, cobweb mold won't have a chance. If and when you do see a bit of cobweb, just douse it with some 3% peroxide straight from the bottle.

Sterilizing casing material makes it much more succeptable to cobweb and other contaminants. Lately, I've been using peat/verm casings with no pasteurization or other heat treatment whatsoever, and the contamination rate hasn't gone up at all. However, massive air exchange is taking place.

As said above, 98% is too high a humidity to maintain during fruiting. It will encourage mold.

Several years ago, I ran a bunch of tests with commercial fungicides. I was even able to fruit off rye berries without pressure cooking them. Casing material treated with Banrot 40wp can't grow cobweb or trichoderma, penicillin, whatever. Fungicides work by stopping fungal spores from being able to germinate. They don't seem to effect live mycelium. However, as home growers, we're not interested in bottom line profits, but in a better and safer product. I still have half a pound or so of fungicide that I won't use, but for some reason never tossed out. It isn't necessary if the precautions given throughout this thread are followed.

You don't need to filter the air going into your greenhouse. Just make sure there are enough places for the air to exit that it reaches all parts. You don't want any stratification of layers, or cobweb will thrive.

Be sure to kill any cobweb you find as SOON as you find it. Cobweb spreads not by spores, but by breaking off fine filiments of mycelium that then ride the air currents to a new location. If cobweb ever gets really bad such as in your case, millions of tiny pieces of mycelium are floating around your house looking for a suitable substrate. You'll probably want to bathe everything in peroxide, then remove it all and bleach bomb your greenhouse area. You can even take your substrates into the shower with you to wash the heck out of them. Any damage that occurs is less than the damage of uncontrolled cobweb. After it airs back out, keep a really close eye on things until you beat back the cobweb with repeated applications of peroxide.

Bear in mind, the above concerns cobweb. If and when you spot green molds, show zero tolerance for fixing them. You need to carefully bag up any project with green, and take it outside as soon as you see it, and bury in a shady spot in your yard. They will often recover in the ground and surpise you with fruits after a rain.
RR


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OfflineAlaastaxana
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Registered: 08/21/06
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Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5996176 - 08/25/06 01:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey RR, thanks for the awesome post! That was exactly the info I was looking for. I have already maxxed out the 'throughput' of air in the terrarium and I'll take your advice on staying away from commercial fungicides. Dont put anything on a casing that you wouldnt put on your cheerios, right? Anyway, since cobweb basically spawns itself without using spores the stuff I was looking at online would not be of assistance to me - is is bascally a sporicide (? not a word). Anyway, you have breathed new optimism into me in a fairly frustrating situation. Thanks again!

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Offlineenesi
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Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: Alaastaxana]
    #6810321 - 04/19/07 08:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I know this topic is a bit old, but it's the only topic i found while searching.

I just picked up a gallon of Sporgon for free the other day, so i am trying it out with some grain and some casing mix to see what happens. Anyone else played with this stuff yet?

From reading the bottle, it's used to sterilize medical equipment that is heat sensitive by soaking for a few hours in it. I mixed a small amount in with some water and soaked 2 cups of grain in it overnight, then PC'd it for an hour. If it colonizes fine using LC, i'll fruit it and mix a bit in with the casing and see how it does.


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Invisibleagar
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Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: enesi]
    #6811020 - 04/19/07 11:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

PC'ing grain properly will sterilize the grain.
What's the purpose of adding it to something;
that you steam/heat/pressure sterilize anyway?


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Offlineenesi
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Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: agar]
    #6811785 - 04/20/07 05:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

agar said:
PC'ing grain properly will sterilize the grain.
What's the purpose of adding it to something;
that you steam/heat/pressure sterilize anyway?


Sporgon is a fungicide, it shouldn't let any mold spores germinate in the grain during inoculation. I inoculated the jar open air, using minimal sterile procedures, to see the effectiveness of the fungicide


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Invisibleagar
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Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: enesi]
    #6811850 - 04/20/07 06:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds like it will kill the inoculate, as well.
Since it is a fungicide.


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Offlineenesi
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Re: "Most commonly used and most effective fungicide in mushroom growing..." [Re: agar]
    #6813298 - 04/20/07 03:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

it doesn't allow spores to germinate, if inoculated with a live mycelium (no spores) it "should" colonize. We will see though, if commercial mushrooms farms have used it for so long, then i would imagine it works.


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