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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Veritas]
    #6809362 - 04/19/07 05:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hopefully I will be allowed to start dating soon.


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OfflineDrCamacho89
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6809381 - 04/19/07 06:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Do you feel that being exposed to a person that would do that would be just a bad influence for the mind that young? In all seriousness, these people are sick. It is indeed a sickness. I just think that no one should have one of their early sexual experiences to be with someone so misguided. I do agree with you in terms of say a 15,16,17 year old dating an 18,19 year old. Those people really get shafted. But a 40ish guy with a 14 year old girl or vice versa. Something is not right with that man/woman. Consensual or not. It's no good for the young adult.


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"The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809407 - 04/19/07 06:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Now, these two hypothetical situations should be equals, yet our society has perverted their individual value in ways I've described above.

OK. How about this: Child molestation is no big deal and mostly harmless, though undesirable in most cases where the kid consents. A kid who's been molested is more psychologically damaged by the societal response than by the molestation itself.

If a molested kid is told "Well, uncle Fred is sick and we've made sure he'll never do that to you again. Now run along and play", I think he/she will mostly forget the incident.

But when the societal response is freaked out parents, freaked out teachers, school in an uproar, newspaper reporters knocking on the door, police interviews, and psychology sessions with anatomically correct dolls finally leading to depositions, lawyers, judges, and court rooms, THAT is what causes most of the harm.

Note: I think molestation is to be avoided at all costs, but when it happens, the first priority should be to minimize the additional damage done to the kid by the societal response. And I'm not talking about a case of rape which is already likely to have caused lifelong trauma.

What do you think?




Agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809411 - 04/19/07 06:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Now, these two hypothetical situations should be equals, yet our society has perverted their individual value in ways I've described above.

OK. How about this: Child molestation is no big deal and mostly harmless, though undesirable in most cases where the kid consents. A kid who's been molested is more psychologically damaged by the societal response than by the molestation itself.

If a molested kid is told "Well, uncle Fred is sick and we've made sure he'll never do that to you again. Now run along and play", I think he/she will mostly forget the incident.

But when the societal response is freaked out parents, freaked out teachers, school in an uproar, newspaper reporters knocking on the door, police interviews, and psychology sessions with anatomically correct dolls finally leading to depositions, lawyers, judges, and court rooms, THAT is what causes most of the harm.

Note: I think molestation is to be avoided at all costs, but when it happens, the first priority should be to minimize the additional damage done to the kid by the societal response. And I'm not talking about a case of rape which is already likely to have caused lifelong trauma.

What do you think?




Agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: DrCamacho89]
    #6809432 - 04/19/07 06:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DrCamacho89 said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
With all elements being equal, these actions are equivalent.  I don't see either situation as molestation, however.  If the teenage boy or girl was unwilling, then it was rape & should be prosecuted as such.  If they were willing, it was sex.

I think that the statutory rape laws are as ridiculous as drug possession laws.  :shrug:




I believe the statutory rape laws to be dead on, if anything, they should be more serious.  It has nothing to do with the physical act.  Manipulating an inferior mind and potentially scarring her eternally is a vicious cruel thing to do.  If someone is that horny and can't get laid, my advice is to go get a prostitute.  At least you can't scar them anymore.




Oh Oh here we go again Hue.:grin:

You cannot tell by someones age their emotional maturity. Some are ready for sex at thirteen and some are not at 19. These ages are arbitrary and therefore unjust.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDrCamacho89
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Icelander]
    #6809472 - 04/19/07 06:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You cannot tell by someones age their emotional maturity. Some are ready for sex at thirteen and some are not at 19. These ages are arbitrary and therefore unjust.




I don't care if she's ready for sex or not. That's not the point. To age isn't just to raise your intelligence. To age, is to have life experiences. A 13 year old is not on par with even someone in their early 20s. He/She may be smart, may have experienced some childhood trauma and that's why she is ready to have sex. That doesn't mean she is mature. That just means she is mature for a 13 year old. Big difference.


--------------------
"The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: DrCamacho89]
    #6809482 - 04/19/07 06:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

A thirteen year old world traveler has much more life experience than a 19 year old raised in a restrictive fundamenatlist household or in a convent.

I stand by what I say.

And you said a young girl of thirteen but what about a boy of thirteen or fifteen having sex with a nineteen year old girl?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineIron_Hymen
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809524 - 04/19/07 06:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I do see where you're getting at. It's this gender-fuck issue that makes the media blow things out of proportion.

If a 14 year old guy does it with an older woman, everyone cheers him on

if its an older man doing it with a 14 year old, its considered disrespectful- and charges are pressed against him.

What about a lesbian couple?

If one chick was 14 and the other was in her 30s....?

:dogpile:


--------------------

#1 reason organized religion should be done away with. It's a message, and one that is open to speculation.
"Pray your own prayers and talk to God on your own.He doesn't want a fucking parrot, and he doesn't want a sheep"

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809684 - 04/19/07 07:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I'm almost as happy as your family that it doesn't "compute" for you, and that you're not a rapist. Rape isn't about 'having sex' in the usual meaning of sex. It is a sexual function 'in the service of the ego,' in which the ego is pathologically inflated with a sense of power. Sex can also be, naturally, in the service of love, in which compassion and affection guide one's sexual feelings and behavior.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: DrCamacho89]
    #6809704 - 04/19/07 07:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I don't care if she's ready for sex or not. That's not the point. To age isn't just to raise your intelligence. To age, is to have life experiences. A 13 year old is not on par with even someone in their early 20s.




Assumption.  Not everyone who ages has a broad variety of life experiences, and not everyone who is young has a limited variety of life experiences.  Nor is it accurate to generalize that having experiences = maturity.  Maturity requires us to integrate our experiences, to learn and benefit from the events of our life, and does not occur spontaneously in the presence of X number of life events.


Quote:

He/She may be smart, may have experienced some childhood trauma and that's why she is ready to have sex. That doesn't mean she is mature.




:lol:  So the only possible reason a 13-year-old would be interested in/ready for sex is if she had been traumatized in childhood?  Have you spent much time around teenagers?  Were you ever a teenage girl?  Ooop...never mind that last one.  :blush:

Teenagers become interested in sex when they go through puberty...this is basic endocrinology.  Each individual goes through the sexual maturation process at a different rate, and begins the process within a certain range of ages.  Once the hormones flood their system, they are sexual beings.

Now, whether a particular teenager is emotionally ready to have sex is a different question entirely.  Some individuals, IMO, are never emotionally mature enough to have sex without experiencing major emotional meltdowns afterward. 

Addressing this issue should be the responsibility of the young adult and his/her parents, and NOT up to the legal system!  IMO, prosecuting someone whom your teenager chose to have sex with is the last resort of the ineffectual, uninvolved parent.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809758 - 04/19/07 08:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Now, these two hypothetical situations should be equals, yet our society has perverted their individual value in ways I've described above.

OK. How about this: Child molestation is no big deal and mostly harmless, though undesirable in most cases where the kid consents. A kid who's been molested is more psychologically damaged by the societal response than by the molestation itself.

If a molested kid is told "Well, uncle Fred is sick and we've made sure he'll never do that to you again. Now run along and play", I think he/she will mostly forget the incident.

But when the societal response is freaked out parents, freaked out teachers, school in an uproar, newspaper reporters knocking on the door, police interviews, and psychology sessions with anatomically correct dolls finally leading to depositions, lawyers, judges, and court rooms, THAT is what causes most of the harm.

Note: I think molestation is to be avoided at all costs, but when it happens, the first priority should be to minimize the additional damage done to the kid by the societal response. And I'm not talking about a case of rape which is already likely to have caused lifelong trauma.

What do you think?




You are completely and absolutely wrong here. I have been on the front lines of child sexual abuse for 21 years now. I am the first adult to whom the child has divulged all manner of sexual misconduct and sexual battery. I am the one who used to take the information before the law changed and it had to be referred to law enforcement to take a statement and the department of Child and Family Services.

The trauma is a daily and nightly lived experience. There may be Post Traumatic Stress Disorder present. Promiscuous and seductive behavior are frequently a result. These changes occur way before there has even been an investigation. I have so many horror stories about this you would not believe it and they are from my experiences in 3 middle schools in 21 years. The last report I made was last week and the alleged perpetrator was a high school cousin who molested with escalating behaviors since the girl was 7 and he was 10. Now she is 13 and he is 17. Family told her she was "dreaming" or "hallucinating" and denied that the boy would do anything like that. Only one report was a malicious lie and the reporter was a Borderline Personality Disordered girl.

Publicity isn't usually the result, but disclosure can bring retribution from family members, adding insult to injury. It is NOT the source of the trauma.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/19/07 11:27 PM)


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OfflineDrCamacho89
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Veritas]
    #6809759 - 04/19/07 08:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It's a matter of principle I guess. I think we live in a society where we all know right from wrong, there is a reason laws are in place no matter how much you may hate the government, laws are in place to prevent a problem from happening again. We KNOW that an ideal upbringing is to not have the teenager exposed to someone who is not in the same life stage as them. Hence, 2 13 year olds exploring each other's bodies if fine. Teenagers will be teenagers. HOWEVER, you take a person who has full control over his actions and decides to IMO prey off of someone in that life stage is just ridiculous. I don't think teenage girls are angels, but I don't think they are as sexually ambiguous as a 35 year old man.
Quote:


Addressing this issue should be the responsibility of the young adult and his/her parents, and NOT up to the legal system! IMO, prosecuting someone whom your teenager chose to have sex with is the last resort of the ineffectual, uninvolved parent.




It is the responsibility of the parent. HOWEVER, how many of us have or at least have a good friend whose parents really dropped the ball. I actually have many. If parents aren't accepting that responsibility as a mass, well the government has to do something. There are exceptions and I stated it before, a 19 year old with a 14 year old is FINE with me. A 35 year old with a 14 year old is NOT. I know some people mature slower, but doesn't it occur to you that some people mature into monsters? If the parents aren't around, you are going to leave it up to the 14 year old to fend for herself, right? Well, the government is trying to do their part.

It's an ugly side to human nature, but one that needs to be eradicated if we are to advance as humans. Step-fathers, Fathers. Makes me sick.


--------------------
"The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: DrCamacho89]
    #6809780 - 04/19/07 08:15 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Depends on the man, woman, boy and girl. It all just depends.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6809792 - 04/19/07 08:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

You are completely and absolutely wrong here

Well, I'm far from an expert here as I've never had to deal with these issues.

That said, do you think that, for example, a 14 year old who seeks out a sexual relationship with an adult much older then himself/herself and who continues that relationship willingly and without coercion or manipulation is also traumatized?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: DrCamacho89]
    #6809793 - 04/19/07 08:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

We KNOW that an ideal upbringing is to not have the teenager exposed to someone who is not in the same life stage as them.




Really? So you would be in favor of total segretation by age group? This sounds extremely unhealthy and far from ideal to me.

If what you mean is that immature young adults should not be left alone with sexual predators, then I agree. Rapists are weak, sadistic bullies, and have nothing positive to add to anyone's life.

But to extend that to include all potential relationships between those of widely divergent ages is drastic and unreasonable. Who are we to decide that a loving relationship between consenting individuals is sick and wrong, based solely on their biological ages?

Yes, there are monsters out there, but you can't identify them by their birthdate. The cute 16-year-old who has great manners & a nice car could be a budding serial killer. The sweet, shy, inexperienced 26-year-old man who falls deeply in love with a 16-year-old woman could be utterly trustworthy and a great influence in her life.

Bottom line, this is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. If it is going on in your family, or with your friends, then it is appropriate to get involved. If not, then we should butt out.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: DrCamacho89]
    #6809799 - 04/19/07 08:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think we live in a society where we all know right from wrong, there is a reason laws are in place

Right and wrong has nothing to do with legal and not legal. Sometimes those concept overlap (rape is illegal) and sometimes they don't (marijuana is illegal).


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809808 - 04/19/07 08:24 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

We KNOW that an ideal upbringing is to not have the teenager exposed to someone who is not in the same life stage as them.

That would be no upbringing. There would be no bringing-up, there would just be remaining a teenager. Without stimulus there is no change.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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OfflineDrCamacho89
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6809823 - 04/19/07 08:31 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:


But when the societal response is freaked out parents, freaked out teachers, school in an uproar, newspaper reporters knocking on the door, police interviews, and psychology sessions with anatomically correct dolls finally leading to depositions, lawyers, judges, and court rooms, THAT is what causes most of the harm.

What do you think?




Absolutely, so what is the solution? Are you going to change sociological tendencies and human interaction? No. Cause we don't live in a dream world. That has been shown throughout history that THOSE THINGS are going to happen. The parent does have the right to not put her child through that (Debra LaFave Case) however, we need to do something to cut it off at the source. Laws will not be passed to change how the media handles it. I would LOVE for it to happen, but I also live in reality.

We are animals and growing by the day. Psychological effects may vary from person to person, but with no one policing it, some awful things will happen to some very innocent people. Like I said, stiffin the laws if you have to. If all it takes if 5 years for some guy with issues to realize he made a mistake, so be it. He was the one who CHOSE to make the mistake. Unfortunately, human beings also only truly learn from their mistakes and hitting rock bottom. That's rock bottom for those particular individuals. I personally don't feel sorry for them. I have seen the mental effects of some very seemingly happy individuals behind closed doors, and it is an ugly ugly reality that is far worse than any media hoopla.


--------------------
"The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: Diploid]
    #6810518 - 04/19/07 11:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I know a teacher who was never prosecuted, even though temporarily jailed, who seduced a 15 year old 9th grade student of his (and a counselee of mine) in the back seat of his car. She had no father and he WAS a father as well as a predator. She is still with him to the best of my knowledge. His wife left him when she returned home with the kids, and a naked girl was fleeing their home.

She was unstable before, but told me herself about the emotional and physical abuse at his hands when she was several years older. Had I reported at that time, it would have been dismissed because she was over 18, and she would have denied everything. She is very messed up and he has victimized her. Meanwhile, she remains pathologically attached to him through her dynamics which confuses father-lover, unresolved Electra Complex, and he has been there to exploit it!

One example. A 15 year old who is 'willing' has still been manipulated. Hey, if I'm available, call me at 21. I HAVE been called by former students, even from Nicaragua, before coming to Miami. I am already hooked up, but if I weren't, I'd consider a 21+ since I wasn't working under my state license and don't have the lifetime restriction for dating a former client. But I would wait til they and I were clear of the law.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Degrees of Molestation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6810556 - 04/19/07 11:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So you never got caught? :lipsrsealed:




:lol:

:stoned:

:lol:


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