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 hongomon
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 News Flash 
#678780 - 06/14/02 03:11 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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My question:
***Democracy doesn't exist in the United States? Is that REALLY what you're claiming?***
Innvertigo's response:
yes...
WOW! What do you all think?
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 Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#678943 - 06/14/02 04:12 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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good question....if you've actually read in you're life you'll know that we are founded on the representative rebulic form of government.
...to the republic, for which it stands.....
stay in school
edit:
If we were a democracy Al Gore would have won the election...
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Eightball
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#678949 - 06/14/02 04:13 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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we are a plutocracy.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#678981 - 06/14/02 04:29 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.
Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Innvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: Ellis Dee]
#678985 - 06/14/02 04:31 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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thank you for clearing that up.....i'll state again Democracy is MOB rule
9 people vote to kill the 10th
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Democracy is a means of decision making. It is not a guarantee of liberty, equality or justice. A pure democracy would abrogate all minority rights down to the smallest minority, the individual. A pure, unfettered democracy would be nothing more than tyranny of the majority.
It is for this reason that we have a constitution. Please read the constitution. Take note of how many times phrases or words such as "shall make no law" or "shall not" or "No" appear. The constitution severely delimits and limits the powers granted to the federal government. Unfortunately, common sense readings of it have all but disappeared from political discourse and university campuses. People are taught the concept that it is a "living document" with the underlying premise that it can be reinterpreted any way the current political fashion or political power players may deem appropriate. If this was the intention of the founders, why even have a constitution? The constitution is a compact between the states, the people and the federal government. It is true that it may be amended, but this is not the same as reinterpreting it.
Back to the point, democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner.
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Innvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
#679080 - 06/14/02 05:12 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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so do you agree that we are a republic or a democracy...I know what a democracy is and i know it's not what we are today or ever intended by the founding fathers
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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A republic, but I fear we are losing it.
(I really was intending my post to be for people other than you because I know that I'm "preaching to the choir," I apologize for the oversight.)
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hongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
#679366 - 06/14/02 07:48 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let me first say that it is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD to claim that "democracy" does not exist in the United States of America!
Democracy takes on many forms, and we can be thankful that the pure, unfettered democracy that evolving refers to is not the form in place here.
HOWEVER
The form of democracy we have in the United States is a constitutional republic. To say that because it is a constitutional republic it is not a type of democracy is akin to saying that because this thing in my hand is a tofu sandwich, it is not a type of food. Unless you were explaining how much you hate tofu, but even then you would be wrong literally, though perhaps understood figuratively.
But for all you guys who don't hate our constitutional republic, please DO NOT be afraid to use the "D" word! The moment democracy dies in America, you won't hear any more from me, I'll throw in my towel and go live in a cave.
If "democracy" automatically equates to mob rule in your mind, your high school social studies teacher has done you a misservice. Or vice-versa.
FURTHERMORE
If you can't accept the idea that the U.S. is "a" democracy, you might be able to settle for the fact that "democracy" (not "a" democracy) is most certainly a political philosophy at work in many ways.
yours in democracy,
hongomon
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hongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: Eightball]
#679370 - 06/14/02 07:50 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Eightball, I'm afraid you're right. I don't want it to be that way. How do you think that came to be, or do you think it has been from the onset?
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Eightball
whore consumer
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679376 - 06/14/02 07:57 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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basically the more money you have, the more support there is for your cause. so if i'm some big company that has a lot of money to donate to lobbiests then my voice counts a lot more than the next person's. basically our government is very corrupt and its style will always promote this kind of buying of law and revolvment around where the big companies want it to go.
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.
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mr freedom
enthusiast
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679386 - 06/14/02 08:06 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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The U.S. is a democraticaly elected REPUBLIC. Meaning that, we are a representative government and those representatives are democraticaly elected.
Evolving, don't get me started on "tyranny of the majority" again. 
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Ellis Dee
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679394 - 06/14/02 08:18 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Eightball, I'm afraid you're right. I don't want it to be that way. How do you think that came to be, or do you think it has been from the onset?
Traditionally, the Senate has always been controled by the rich and the house by the average person and everyone else. The rich do control the republican party for sure and hold tremendous influence in the democratic party as well. I think this is because our current political party system is sort of a coalition system of people that join u to get their agenda passed. The democratic party is a coalition of negroes, feminists, environmentalists, and labor unions, and the poor. The GOP is a coalition of the rich, christian pro-lifers (like myself), and pro-gunners. This is just a brief example of what I'm talking about. Underneath all the politics there is the basic fact that the republicans are for the rich and upper middle class and the democratic party is for poor minorities, radical pro-abortion feminists, and working people.
It's all bout votes, and what the big shots in the party think will get the most votes. I've played both sides of the fence before. I've sat in on a meeting planning democratic campaign tactics where they discussed how to portray and deal with the NRA and protecting preserving medicare. I've sat in on republican meetings where we planned how to portray the democrats as tax and spend liberals for big government. It's all dirty politics. Anymore when I get involved at all it's about bashing democratic liberals.
But to really answer the question. Money buys access, influence, and final policy. Money buys elections by buying media access. That's how it works. Labor unions know this as well as business owners. The two work against each other. This is why we're controled by special interests, they give us money which buys air time to buy votes. A few months ago I was selling tickets to a dinner for the president for $5,000 a pop. For that they also got to go to a tax workshop, or they could pay to go to the workshop or dinner seperatly. It was all business owners that went to the dinner and workshops. The democrats have similar fundraising methods they use with their own wealthy constituancies. Not many poor people working 2 jobs to support their families could afford to go to the tax workshops to give their input on how they wanted the tax laws to change. It was all republican business owners and they went and gave their input and they got their tax cut. They paid out the nose for it, but it's nothing compared to what they'll save in taxes.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Anonymous
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679406 - 06/14/02 08:35 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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It is true that we have some democracy in the U.S., there are democratic processes for electing representatives, and the representatives use democratic processes for some decision making, etc.
What does democracy give you other than a vote? In some of the most totalitarian regimes we can observe some of the highest voter participation. What does it gain you to vote on who your slave master will be when you are still a slave?
Does a guarantee of the freedom to vote in any way guarantee freedom for anything else?
Why are the majority's decisions more valid in deciding your fate than your own decisions? Does the majority have superior knowledge of your personal situation and hence better able to decide how to run your life than you?
Where would you rather live, under a monarchy where full freedom is granted or under a democracy where everyone else has a say in running your life? Why?
Think about this hypothetical scenario: You are living in Germany in 1941, the government has been turned into a pure democracy. Anti-Semitism is rampant among your fellow Germans, Jews comprise 10% of the population, recent polls show that 60% of the voting public supports the extermination of all the Jews living in your country. Tomorrow there will be a referendum on the extermination of the Jews. You are Jewish. Explain to your fellow Jews why democracy is a superior form of government and why Jewish people should agree to go along with democratic decisions.
(note : My high school social studies teacher never covered anything like this, I'm betting that yours didn't either.)
Yours in Liberty,
Evolving
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hongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
#679447 - 06/14/02 09:37 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, like I said, it's a good thing we don't have the unfettered democracy you mentioned in an earlier post.
A lot of your post, such as your hypothetical situation, seem to be arguments against that pure democracy. That is not the form of democracy in place in the U.S., and I honestly don't think it's in place anywhere. And it certainly isn't the form I advocate! When we try to encourage or influence the installment of a democratic government in, say, Afghanistan, or Indonesia, I'm sure it's not "pure democracy" we have in mind.
I actually don't remember high school.
Peace, and yes--liberty!
hongomon
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hongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: Eightball]
#679452 - 06/14/02 09:48 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Those were all interesting posts.
I'm not ready to believe that the system in place, this constitutional republic of our democratic nation, is not capable of reform VIA ITSELF. Meaning, the democratic process is still our best, most viable shot at improving the situation. However, I only see it through a major change at the grassroots level. And considering the current apathy of the people, it's a long-ass shot.
So we go down fighting, then. Are ya with me? Chaaaaaaaaarge.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
#679654 - 06/15/02 05:12 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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*****Explain to your fellow Jews why democracy is a superior form of government and why Jewish people should agree to go along with democratic decisions.****
That was my poinbt of the 9 people vote to kill the 10th....however you put it in more realistic terms, good post
****My high school social studies teacher never covered anything like this, I'm betting that yours didn't either****
My social studies teacher was a flaming liberal who basically taught what she believed to be right. I wish i was back in that same class with what i know know, it would be interesting to say the least.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679662 - 06/15/02 05:23 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****Well, like I said, it's a good thing we don't have the unfettered democracy you mentioned in an earlier post***
I agree, and i'm not about to deny the fact that there are certain areas where we do have majority vote, however as a whole we are still a representative republic (or that ws the intention). I do fear that eightball is correct in saying that we are a plutocracy to and extent (more than i want it to be).
****And it certainly isn't the form I advocate!****
You can call it anything you want but when the smoke clears with a different name it's still a representative republic with constitutional limits.....what's in a name?
****When we try to encourage or influence the installment of a democratic government in, say, Afghanistan, or Indonesia, I'm sure it's not "pure democracy" we have in mind.****
I'm sure you're right and maybe quite possibly the meaning of the word Democracy has changed into what we actually are. However that still doesn't mean our government is a Democracy in the true sense. The word Democracy has been a bullet point for politicians and lobbyists to put a silver lining on an otherwise lousy agenda. Who could possibly be against a Democracy?...I for one am against it...that's why we elect our representatives ie: representaive republic.
****I actually don't remember high school.****
That's not neccesarily a bad thing....high school government classes are a joke
****Peace, and yes--liberty!****
Well said
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679666 - 06/15/02 05:26 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****I only see it through a major change at the grassroots level****
I had a discussion with a neighbor about this once and i could be wrong but i feel that a grass roots movement would have little effect because they hold no power when compared to the big-wigs in the federal government. (however i do see your point). I've always been one for changing from the top down as opposed to the bottom up approach. This isn't a fool proof plan and it sure has it's holes but that's how i see how change can be performed.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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hongomon
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Well, now you're just squirming. Face it--Democracy is a fundamental of U.S. government. Our constitutional republic is a form of democracy. Period.
The next time someone asks you if democracy exists in America, just say yes.
As for the top-to-bottom vs. bottom-to-top approach, I'm glad that there are people taking it on at both ends.
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mr freedom
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#679891 - 06/15/02 08:05 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's it, I see that Hongomon is absolutely, possitively, without repudiation; correct. The U.S. is a democracy, whenever I am forced to live my life according to MOB RULE the method used to force my attrittion is DEMOCRACY.
I don' think the argument can be ignored. Hongomon is correct, democracy is alive and well in the U.S. Of course, it is against the constitution, the efforts and objectives of our founders and makes a mockery of individual liberty that this country purports to be a bastion of.
Hongomon, just for you, I have recreated an old post of mine. My intention is to let you see the method by which a REPUBLIC has become a DEMOCRATIC DICTATORSHIP.
To the preservation of bandwidth, and to make this a little easier on the eyes, I have purposely left out all but two copy/paste quotes. If asked for the specific, law, historical document or other proofs that support my position I would be happy to supply them.
This conundrum you speak of, the so-called DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY vs. individual liberty, has been around as a theory for some time. The founders and creators of the CONSTITUTION were very frightened of a MAJORITY being able to vote to remove or supress the rights of the minority. This theory is called "TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY"; do a search on the subject, you will be amazed.
The simplistic nature of our, TRUE, government has been lost, stolen, trampled on and just LIED about for over 50 years. That is all the time it took for the "good ole boys" network and the christian, moralists to take over our country and turn it into a police state; and they did it by FORCE. That, my friends is the textbook definition of a COUP. They did it with the force of the DEMOCRATICLY ELECTED representatives. Those representatives ELECTED by the MAJORITY.
It helps to really know, not guess, but know, what the difference between "Democracy" and "Republic" is. Although the difference between the two, in any dictionary, is quite small on the surface, in fact the diffence can be traced to two words "supreme power". In a democracy, the SUPREME POWER, is EXCERSICED by the people, in other words, the people are the ones responsible for seeing to it that the laws are followed and that any constitution is followed. In a REPUBLIC, the SUPREME POWER RESTS, in the people and it is their REPRESENTATIVES that EXCERSISE THIS POWER. In other words, in a republic, specificaly the REPUBLIC of the united states, as outlined in the constitution, the supreme power of the land DOES NOT rest in the constitution, but in the PEOPLE.
For 50 years, or so, the united states representatives have been allowed to run rampant, FORGETTING, that the SUPREME POWER does not lie with them, or the federal government, but with the people of the united states. The constitution is an excellent document, in that it makes CLEAR what the governing officials may and may not do. The conundrum is that the supreme court has, over this short time period, usurped the authority that was previously retained, ONLY, by the people. They have done this by, allowing that the supreme power of the united states now rests in the federal government And, now, the supreme court, by removing from the "instruction to the jury" the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to judge not only the ACCUSED, but to also, JUDGE THE LAW, has usurped the SUPREME AUTHORITY of the people, only this time it was the judiciary that did it.. This is the basis for how our country has become filled with a plethora of laws that PROTECT citizens NOT from others that would harm them, but purport to PROTECT CITIZENS FROM THEMSELVES.
For over 150 years, the United States, was a symbol of how democraticly elected officials could be trusted NOT to violate their OATH to uphold the constitution. The only blemish on our record being our civil war.
For all of this time, citizens were safe from the tyranny of the majority, by the courts and our elected officials. The constitution was NOT open to loose interpretation, quite the opposite, the constitution was the FOUNDING set of laws in this country, having as it's premise that people CAN govern themselves, and the official DUTY of elected officials is NOT to set standards by which we live, but to allow us a SAFE environment to live in.
Why is the federal government NOW built around a substancial belief system that can be directly traced to a Judeo-christian religious belief system? Why are some drugs outlawed, and some, like tobacco and alcohol, simply regulated?(for the record; nicotine is MORE ADICTIVE THAN HEROIN) Why are there only 2 people to vote for for president ( I realize that there are more, but you never see them on television debates)? Why must ADULTS be FORCED to capitulate to the masses of procreaters? I don't give a DAMN about your child, just keep his ass out of my "HERB" garden and I won't run him over with my, GAS GUZZLING monster truck. And, WHY should the federal government give a rats ass about, who I have sex with, and, for that matter the WAY in which we have sex (don't give blowjobs ladys, you may be breaking the law), who I marry or how many, or what I may or may not have GROWING ON MY PROPERTY.
The matter of government power is, historicaly, a matter of whence the power of government comes from. In this country it is assumed, or once was assumed, to come from the "will of the people". Not that the "will of the people" allowed the government to brush aside, either by legislation or by FORCE, the rights held by the "people". The will of the people was inherent in the democratic process of electing our government officials, by the use of their vote, citizens can remove government officials that fail to due their duty to the constituents that voted for them. This has led to a narrowing of the government body to ONLY those individuals that will legislate or use FORCE to violate the rights of "others", most notabley, those "others" that don't wish to live by the standards of the majority. Now, these standards, purported by the majority, may be as simple as not shopping on a certain day. Where I live this is still a law, you can't buy alcohol on SUNDAY. Now, someone tell me, what the is the reason for a law of this nature? I think the best time to buy alcohol would be on sunday morning at 11 am, right before church lets out (less traffic) and a good hour before the BRONCOS kick the shit out of DALLAS. Is there a reasonable explanation for this law? Or is this, and MANY, MANY other laws simply an example of TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY.
James Madison; federalists papers no. 10
"Madison said, "Measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority." And he's right."
To ensure that I live MY life according to the MAJORITY'S belief system, the MAJORITY has elected officials that use VERY BIG GUNS, to ensure that I live a MORAL life as DEFINED BY THE MAJORITY.
In th United States, the constitution is clear on this subject; in articles 1, 9 and 10 of the BILL OF RIGHTS.
1.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
9.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
It is to the detriment of our country that laws have been enacted NOT for the purpose of protecting the public, but for protecting me from ME. The nature of these laws suppports an establishment of a religion, legislated by the congressional body of the United States. Further, the support for laws such as these, by their very nature, are DIRECT conflicts to the SUPREME POWER of the CITIZENS of the united states. These laws are a direct prostitution of the democratic process. And we wonder why we can use the words "Politician and Prostitute" interchangabley, although, in my opinion, it disparages the institution of professional prostitution.
The ONLY reason to encroach on another citizens rights is to provide protection from misdeeds by another or to defend the populace. In this manner, a civilized society can protect itself from the actions, by another, that may injure the society as a whole. The right to defend ones self is restricted to the defense of life and property, we cannot DEFEND ourselves from the "barbaric" ideas of another using our votes to give to government the power that "we the people" don't have; namely, to force another citizen to live by the MAJORITY'S standards.
John Stuart Mills Essay "On Liberty"
"that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to someone else. "
Take into consideration this scenario: I have a farm, I produce edible produce, I am VERY good at it, my neighbors are not good at farming. In fact, my neighbors couldn't grow mold on bread. One, very dry year, all of my neighbor's crops die. My crops don't die, not because I have a rain machine but because I took the time, over the years, to build several water depositorys, similar to the wells built by the romans, and I use simple organics that naturaly hold the mosisture in the soil. In consideration for my neighbors, and because some of them have skills other than their pathetic farming skills, I propose to put aside my excess crops for the use of the community on a contract type basis; said contract being assured that NONE of my neighbors will go hungry this winter. This action, by me, seems to be a good idea, but my neighbors don't see it that way. My neighbors insist that my water should be given to them so that they can use it to irrigate their, VERY poorly, fertilized fields. Their assertion is that WATER is a valuable source of life that is given by GOD. Since I am most assuredly NOT GOD then they should be able to have the water that I have worked so hard to preserve. They are certainly in the MAJORITY in their belief, in fact their is only ONE person that doesn't think this is a good thing; that person being me. Well, as it turns out, I have much bigger guns than my neighbors, their attempts to take my water from me fail. However, the next election provides the neccesary power for my neighbors to strip what is rightfuly mine. The congres proposes that, because RAIN falls across STATE borders, that they have jurisdiction to my land and the water on it, they are supported by the supreme court. This time my guns are inefficient; the federal government has tanks, I don't.
Sorry for the long analogy, but this is what happens, over and over and over. What my neighbor may NOT rightly take from me AT THE END OF A GUN, the federal government does take AT THE END OF A GUN. Why is this? Why is it that a group of citizens may not violate my property rights, nor my rights to life, liberty and happiness, but get these same people together and they can vote for a GOVERNMENT official to violate these PROTECTED RIGHTS?
By what mechanism is the erosion of, constitutionaly protected rights, perpetuated?
By the legislation of MORAL laws, designed, NOT to protect me from the MAJORITY of people that wish to steal from me, but to PROTECT ME FROM MYSELF. Also, by the supreme court's justification of these laws. By the
TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY.
Your fellow citizen,
Mr. U.S. Freedom
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#680288 - 06/15/02 12:28 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****Well, now you're just squirming***
Squirming? It was a nice way of saying you have no clue what you're talking about. You really should read a little more before entering into debates that you have no clue in.
****Our constitutional republic is a form of democracy. Period****
Sorry but again you are speaking out of your A$$. A representative republic is not a democracy and no matter how many times you say it they aren't the same.
****The next time someone asks you if democracy exists in America, just say yes.****
So i can look like i'm ignorant? No thanks, i am well educated as to what this country was founded on and it wasn't Mob rule. It was conveiniant how you changed the definition of democracy when it didn't fit your intentions. Sounds to me like you want the US to be a living form of governement where the rules change to fit the situation.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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***That's it, I see that Hongomon is absolutely, possitively, without repudiation; correct***
well i beg to differ from your rather long explanation. We were never founded on the premise of becoming a democracy and to say so is just plain ignorant.
****whenever I am forced to live my life according to MOB RULE the method used to force my attrittion is DEMOCRACY.***
Are you implying that we are in Mob rule as we speak? If so do you condone it? I realize (i believe) what you're trying to do in your post but you to are twisting what is in fact reality. I will grant you that we are not functioning as the founding fathers had intended, however i will say that we are still not a democracy. We do not live in a society of mob rule and that's exactly what democracy is.
Democracy:
government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
Republic:
government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit
While these two forms at first appear similar the diferences are clear in democracy "rule of the majority" (IE mob Rule)is key to the differences.
****I don' think the argument can be ignored. Hongomon is correct, democracy is alive and well in the U.S. Of course, it is against the constitution, the efforts and objectives of our founders and makes a mockery of individual liberty that this country purports to be a bastion of.****
Thanks for making my point. We have never been a democracy for that particular reason of denying those of their individual rights. Majority rule is just that and thank you for backing my point.
****That is all the time it took for the "good ole boys" network and the christian, moralists to take over our country and turn it into a police state;****
That's a convienient excuse since many believe it's the socialist minded liberals and republicrates who have trambled upon the constitution and the down-trodden at every chance that they had.
****In other words, in a republic, specificaly the REPUBLIC of the united states, as outlined in the constitution, the supreme power of the land DOES NOT rest in the constitution, but in the PEOPLE.****
I'm afraid your somewhat mistaken. The constitution was created by the people for the people as a republic, democracy was never mentioned in the creation of this country.
****The constitution is an excellent document, in that it makes CLEAR what the governing officials may and may not do.****
Sorry but the constitution limits the powers of the government and does not grant them any power over the people.
I appreciate your post and you seem to have a good head about things you have only secured my belief that we are not a democracy. it all comes down to two words, Mob Rule. No matter how much you think you're being opressed we are not at that point and we were never intended on being a democracy. I will not be naive enough to think that this will never happen i do agree with you that we are functioning as a rupublic should and i would challenge you as to the direction of the philosophical belief system of the current government being of a socialist realm rather then a Democracy. I realize that the
two are just the opposite side of the same coin but opposite nonetheless.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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mr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Vert, the internet does not show sarcasim very well. I was being a bit sarcastic in my reply for purpose of demonstrating that democracy is being practiced and that it is a bad thing.
Mob rule does exist. The mob just happens to be rich and powerful. This mob does not work together nor does it have the same agenda. Liberals want to take my property to save the puple necked, webfooted, green tailed ass biter. Republicans want to take my land so that they can build a highway on it for their oil drilling companys don't have to go around the mountain. Democrats want to take my land so that a "community" center can be built for the under privlliaged. The religious right wants my land to be used in the furtherance of God's plan, but at least they are willing to pay me for it, unless I am a heathen, then they will just pay a judge to take it from me.
Now, do I condone this method of government. Uh, NO. (what the hell did you think I would say?)
Long before there was such a thing as a "liberal" there was white CHRISTIAN males. It is these that I hold responsible for the state of my country. Liberals are far and away the last ones that I fear when I hear "new law".
As to the direction of this nation being socialist or democracy bent. I would say that it is neither really. We are a socialist seeming nation in that the government steals taxes and uses this money to create social engineered programs that never work. This money is also used in foreign countrys to support their social programs or our twisted public officials needs. The other bent is the path of plutocracy. The rule of the rich over the poor.
Look at your daily life and then decide what fundamental changes would you make in it? Now, look at the obstacles in the way. In what way are these obstacles put in place? I understand that you may have a perfect life, this is not the debate I wish to engage in. What I wish people to see is that democracy is NOT our defineing principal. Our defining principal is "individual liberty" and it is with the DEMOCRATIC process that individual libertys have been completely removed from us as a people.
Think about that the next time that you want to add an addition to YOUR property, or if you wish to be a "gardener" (careful what you plant), or if you just wish to go in your own back yard (with privacy fence) take off all of your clothes and just get some much needed vitamin D by sunbathing in the nude.
To reiterate, when I say "mob rule" I am refering to tyranny of the majority. THat majority may have changed over time, but the end result is always the same, and they always use the DEMOCRATIC PROCESS to achieve their ends; namely to make me live by their rules.
The historical significance of the constitution cannot be ignored here. The constitution LIMITS GOVERNMENT, it does not limit me or the way in which I choose to live. It spells out some rights while allowing that it does not limit ANY rights of the people. The only reason for limiting a person's liberty must be to avoid harm to others; and I mean direct harm. Thankfuly we have now, by the democratic process, been able to limit what a person may put in their bodys, what they may eat, drink or do to their bodys, who they may marry, in what way they may have sexual intercourse. If you think that I am overstating my postition here, check out this site:
http://www.geocities.com/privacylaws/effects.htm
Explain to me how it can be illegal for me to get a bj from my girlfriend? Or that it is illegal for us to engage in "other" sexual acrobatics (limited of course by my flexibilty).
I use extreme examples in my arguments, I admit that. In general I am sure that we are all happy and that these rediculous laws never affect us in our daily lives.
Oh wait, there is that long standing 30 year War On Drugs. If you don't think that this affects your daily life, just look at your paycheck or more specificaly, the deductions from your paycheck.
To the question: is the U.S. a democracy? The answer is, not yet. We are still a representative governmet that uses the democratic majority process to elect our representatives. The problem is that we also use this process to determine what laws are passed. It is this last that I find the most endagering to our individual libertys.
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
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mr freedom I'm cynical enough as it is! I share your anger at an increasingly empowered federal government. I believe we are on the road to fascism. I believe, like Eightball said, that we are governed by a plutocracy.
But hey, this doesn't describe mob rule:
"This mob does not work together nor does it have the same agenda. Liberals want to take my property to save the puple necked, webfooted, green tailed ass biter. Republicans want to take my land so that they can build a highway on it for their oil drilling companys don't have to go around the mountain. Democrats want to take my land so that a "community" center can be built for the under privlliaged. The religious right wants my land to be used in the furtherance of God's plan, but at least they are willing to pay me for it, unless I am a heathen, then they will just pay a judge to take it from me."
How can you have a mob so broken up into differing, and often OPPOSING factions? That's not a mob! They may each have agendas that are either fascist or socialist or some other terrible -ist, but as long as they are in opposition they are not able to bring about that horrible effect of "democracy" (hear the minor key...) you're afraid of.
I am right by your side in your fight to strip the government, especially the federal government, of its unconstitutionally usurped power. The majority whose tyranny I fear these days is the financial majority--the plutocrats, fewer in number but they have the bucks and they're holding the conch. Tell me--what do you suggest we do to regain our freedom?
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mr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#681447 - 06/16/02 05:51 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hongo, like any mob, there are those in opposition. I fail to make small incremental differences in my particular generalizations of "mob". I do this because, on boards like these, I am not talking to the ignorant masses. I am talking, debating, arguing with those who, on some level, see eye to eye.
The current groups in power do not need to be in total agreement to cause catastrophic harm to the american people. As long as these groups can engage in back alley agreements and back scratching they continue to keep the control they have rested from the people.
What to do? I have been pondering this question for some time now. In fact I have given over a large portion of my life to the study of significant historical, legal, political and religious (yes, religious) documents in the hopes of finding some sort of weapon to use that would lead us to freedom once again.
I have found many areas that could be used in the courts, but as relevant as these arguments are, they fail if the judge or supreme court fail to act with honor.
As we saw in our latest presidential contest, the supreme court is defunct. Our supreme court could not make a decision on what was right, but instead, voted along strict party lines; there is no support for the honor of our past, our constitution nor for individual liberty, at least not with the supreme court of today.
I am afraid that, unless motivated by exigent circumstances, the general public will never be able to resist the political undermining of individual liberty. Outside of a catastrophy of historical proportions, the only way to reach the general public is with intense education. I see no way to reach the masses in this regard, perhaps you or others like you do.
We can regain some freedoms with the jury nullification effort; but this is a difficult task that requires much more courage than most in the ethenogen community pocess. It is not very likely that we (those that are here right now) could ever convince our family, neighbors or politicians that the WOD's is immoral and should be abandoned.
In my "real" life I have tried this tact. I am articulate, I have the physical presence of a "regular joe". I am not elitist in my assertions, in other words, I don't hinge my arguments to individual libertys on just the WOD's; this would never engage the listener (at least outside of this type of venue). I fail in almost every effort, not because I am a dolt, or because I come off as a "stoner". I fail because the effort that must be put forth by the recipient. The general public no longer has the tools necessary to defend itself agains it's own tyranny. The "dumbing down" of america has succeeded where just the use of force would have failed miserably.
The effort to simply stay alive, provide for our familys and their future has become an all consuming nightmare for the general public. They wish only to live, and they are happy to live under an oppresive dictatorship, just as long as they can watch ESPN or some other mind numbing television show or movies that can dampen their need to think; if only for 2 hours.
I am certainly open to suggestions in this regard, but to this date, outside of closet growing, I am at a loss to come up with a process for removing from government it's mis-appropriation of the power of the people.
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
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mr freedom, I understand better your meaning of "mob rule" now. Keep up your researching, your writing, and the rest of it. We have a long way to go, but fortunately a problem as multi-faceted as this--and I completely agree that it is as broad as you say (...historical, legal, political and religious (yes, religious) documents...)--can accomodate people attacking it from all the different angles.
As for the unifying factor that will wake the public up, let's keep looking for it.
By the way, when I saw your name I thought, "Here's someone who can kick Captain America's ass!" America stands for different values, some great some terrible, but freedom? That's always at the top.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#683035 - 06/17/02 01:29 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****mr freedom, I understand better your meaning of "mob rule" now. ****
hmmmmmmm?
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
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Innvertigo, were you dropped as a baby? I think you were dropped as a baby by a liberal democrat, and that has been the sole basis for your opinion forming ever since. You've already made it known you have trouble grasping "rather long explanations," and sarcasm thick as honey is beyond you as well. So why you feel so intent on getting into pissing contests is curious indeed. You yourself have indicated the existence of democratic principles in our very own constitutional republic, but since you're so stuck on the term, and since you've never fully recovered from being dropped on your head, you just can't see past the end of your nose. You do a terrible job of making people like me realize how ignorant we are. mr freedom is far more engaging--and me, prideful person I am, I'm much more inclined to get past terminology with someone who actually posts original thought.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#683482 - 06/17/02 08:22 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****Innvertigo, were you dropped as a baby? I think you were dropped as a baby by a liberal democrat, and that has been the sole basis for your opinion forming ever since. ****
What i find funny is the more you waiver the more mad you get..ha ha....you're funny
****You've already made it known you have trouble grasping "rather long explanations," and sarcasm thick as honey is beyond you as well.****
Trouble grasping? Sarcasm?.....i have no trouble grasping anything you say if that's what you're trying to prove, nothing you have said has been that deep...sorry to disappoint
****So why you feel so intent on getting into pissing contests is curious indeed. ****
A contest means there are actually competition........Mr. freedom had a lot of nice points and i differ a little with some of them but that's expected, you however have become a disappointment.
****You yourself have indicated the existence of democratic principles in our very own constitutional republic, *****
they, the principles, are quite similar to a representative republic...read the posts with the definitions
****but since you're so stuck on the term,****
I'm not stuck on the term, words mean things. In my life black is black, red is red and A is A...Arostitlian(sp) Law.
*****and since you've never fully recovered from being dropped on your head, you just can't see past the end of your nose. ****
ha ha..i'm beginning to like you
****You do a terrible job of making people like me realize how ignorant we are. ****
however there are many on these boards who have no problem noticing your deficiencies
****mr freedom is far more engaging--*****
I have a different style. I know what i'm talking about and don't need a book to express it. Breivity is the soul of wit ya know.
****and me, prideful person I am, I'm much more inclined to get past terminology with someone who actually posts original thought. ****
You?..ha ha ha ha..prideful.. Now that's comedy...When you're done with your temper tantrum feel free to post another topic and i will be more then happy to engage you in it (if it interests me)....dropped as a baby, now that's an original thought..ha ha ha ha ha
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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mr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Hey, I'm witty. Really I am. I am a funny motherfucker.
Vert, are you insinuating that my replys lend themselves better to novels than to dis-organized internet debate?
I really do try to keep it short. You would freak at the length of most of my post's before I whittle them down. If you look back on some of my, more lengthy replys, you will see, sometimes, abrupt changes from one paragraph to the next; this is where I got lazy in the re-write and just deleted a page or two.
Truly, sometimes, I am engaged by a topic, NOT for the chance to primp my ego, but for the chance to engage a reader and to, perhaps, just maybe, let them see for themselves a small remote possibility that they may not have seen for themselves. I tend to do this in my real life as well. The fact is that I try to make it a point to do this. It is an excercise in communication and rational thought.
To lend ones words, either written or spoken, to a subject must, in some form be considered an art. I am not very good at it yet; but I keep trying.
As to length for the sake of length it is a problem I must admit. I never could understand how some college students had difficulty in writing a 500 word essay, given that I had difficulty in LIMITING my essay's to such an arbitrarily short length. I would often be criticized by professors that I could be more brief in my essays. I would simply point out to them that, though considerably longer than required, they, in most instances, had put the 500 word limit as the "minimum". It was certainly not out of hubris that my essays would often reach lengths of 5000 words or more. I just felt that limiting my essays would lead to "denying, critical, need to know, information". And, I am nothing, if not complete when I wish to be.
Uhhhmmm, by the way, this above could be interpreted as SARCASIM. But, it is not meant that way at all; just a short (well, I guess it could be shorter) explanation.
I couldn't resist. Sorry about that.
I did think of a small way in which the limitations of government could be brought about; but I don't think it will happen. Read on if you will.
Our country was built on individual freedom and the premise that the "people" could rule themselves. The only necessity of government was the protection from harm of others and to protect our borders. The rest was to be left in the hands of the people to live as they see fit, to pursue happiness by their own choosing.
How we came so to be so WRONG in such a short time is just because of this childlike belief that "GOVERNMENT" or elected representatives would actually have the people's best interest's at heart. This is a bit luducrous don't you think? Representatives and elected officials are put in office, at least now, by those with money. Along with this money is power, the power that bought those politicians, and those that weild this power are the most immoral of people. They use this power to rule over others without their consent.
Consider; I vote for a particular politician. Unknown to me, he received 80% of his campaign fund from a religious organization (it is not my intention to point fingers, one could easily substitute any number of corporations, or special interest group in place of "religious"). This particular group selected this politician, NOT because of his intergrity, but because he sits on a particular committee that has before it a bill to make it illegal to kiss your wife in public ( yes, I chose this because in 1973, this was done in Oklahoma).
This is the way our government works. Politicians don't do what the people want, they do what the highest bidder tells them to.
The solution to this maddness is three fold. One, we limit politician campaign funds to ONLY those funds remitted by INDIVIDUALS; PERIOD. No more special interest's at all, no corporations, no religious groups, no save the whale groups (I have nothing against whales, there is a better way to stop the killing of whales; stop buying ANY products related to their killing). Second, it is now time for term limits, specificaly, limiting the terms of politicians to ONE term only; president included. Three, the pay of a politician, in ANY office, except the president and vice president, should be EQUAL to the median salary of the population, excluding the top 10% and the bottom 10%.
Who thinks that this will ever happen?
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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***Vert, are you insinuating that my replys lend themselves better to novels than to dis-organized internet debate?****
not really i was saying that i don't like to write alot if i can help it....
***I really do try to keep it short. You would freak at the length of most of my post's before I whittle them down.***
There's really nothing wrong with them being that long. Actually if i'm enjoying the debate or discussion i'll look forward to long posts. However when i'm busy i like to put down what i want to say quickly as i can. If i am bored i'll just scan it and i never rarely ever click on a link to read a story unless i am in fact interested, that's one of my many flaws 
I did read the whole thing  pretty interesting. I've always been for term limits but i would make it two terms, including judges, the house, senate, city, state, and federal positions. I too would limit contributions to individuals because corporations don't vote. I would include an intensive tracking plan that would tell the US who gave what and how much. (to avoid situations where PETA could donate $10,000 via a Mcdonalds worker.
As far as the whole length of paper issue, my Thesis in grad school was 50 pages long minimum......i wrote 75...so i feel your pain..
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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mr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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I was just funnin' with you Vert. I do write a bit much when I am trying to make a point. The difference, that I see, in what I write or respond to, is that I try my absolute best to avoid the cut and paste nonsense. I speak, as much as possible, in my own words. I get my inspiration from the research I do on the topic, I often include relevant quotes and if I feel it necessary, instead of the cut/paste dance, I will post a link.
From what I have been told, regarding my own post grad work, it would be best if I just weighed my thesis; my advisor would like me to keep it under 25 pounds, he has a hernia.
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
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Hi mr freedom,
I'm sort of in and out--got a case of the caseofthe's... But I'll keep my brain on long enough
to keep in the discussion. Okay, I'm all for the limitation of campaign financing. The whole
thing stinks. Term and salary limits--there are some details to hammer out, but yeah, right on.
But the question is, how do we get from where we are now to that ideal you've suggested?
And more importantly, what do I do? What do I do today, what direction do I plan out for myself
to move things toward that? It's sad, but I just don't think the powers that be are tapping
into the shroomery boards for inspiration.
I'll chip in more two centses another day. Or maybe later tonight. Or maybe never. You just
never know.
Sorry bout the strange spacing. My comp has a caseofthe's as well.
peace
hongomon
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Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 19 years, 17 days
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
#688933 - 06/19/02 06:13 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I dont support term limits at all. The only reason we have term limits for The US President is that the Republicians took such a beating under FDR's long stay.
Why is it ok for a US State to keep a govenor for decades, yet if the country wants the same President for more than eight years they cant have it?
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>>Jammer>>
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: Jammer]
#689860 - 06/20/02 06:10 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****Why is it ok for a US State to keep a govenor for decades, ****
I'm sure this is universal but here in Michigan the term limit for our Governor is 3 four year terms
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (06/20/02 06:10 AM)
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mr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
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Re: News Flash [Re: Jammer]
#691179 - 06/20/02 05:18 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hongo, all you can do at this point is to entrench yourself in the democratic process. Find out what politicians are running on what platform where you live. Find one or more that may listen and agree with, and support term limits.
Jammer, term limits are only necessary to protect individual freedom at this point. The professional politician needs to become an endagered species, uh, strike that, needs to become an EXTINCT species. Politics should be a stepping stone for getting a job in the real world, or perhaps, an alternative to doing ones part for society without joining the armed services. The pay should reflect this, the time served should reflect this.
As we eliminate life long politicians, we will quickly see profound responses to the real needs of the people and not more laws restricting their libertys; no matter what the excuse.
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Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 19 years, 17 days
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RE: "I'm sure this is universal but here in Michigan the term limit for our Governor is 3 four year terms" hmm....
I never knew that... I do know that it seems that J. Engler was(IS?) govenor in Michigan for like a very long time.
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>>Jammer>>
Edited by Jammer (06/20/02 05:28 PM)
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: Jammer]
#691802 - 06/21/02 04:00 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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he can't run this election year (thank God). He was a peice of shit but between him and Geoffrey Fieger it was the lesser of two evils
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!
Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 19 years, 17 days
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Is Geoffrey Fieger running again??
Isint he the lawer? - Damm....
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>>Jammer>>
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: News Flash [Re: Jammer]
#695925 - 06/23/02 09:10 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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No..he would never win against anyone...even Gary Condit....it'll just be another red tape man that'll cost tax payers more and more money while our roads get shitier and shitier.
--------------------
America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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