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Offlinehongomon
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News Flash
    #678780 - 06/14/02 05:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My question:
***Democracy doesn't exist in the United States? Is that REALLY what you're claiming?***

Innvertigo's response:
yes...

WOW! What do you all think?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #678943 - 06/14/02 06:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

good question....if you've actually read in you're life you'll know that we are founded on the representative rebulic form of government.


...to the republic, for which it stands.....

stay in school

edit:

If we were a democracy Al Gore would have won the election...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEightball
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #678949 - 06/14/02 06:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

we are a plutocracy.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #678981 - 06/14/02 06:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #678985 - 06/14/02 06:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

thank you for clearing that up.....i'll state again Democracy is MOB rule

9 people vote to kill the 10th


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: News Flash [Re: Innvertigo]
    #679059 - 06/14/02 07:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Democracy is a means of decision making. It is not a guarantee of liberty, equality or justice. A pure democracy would abrogate all minority rights down to the smallest minority, the individual. A pure, unfettered democracy would be nothing more than tyranny of the majority.

It is for this reason that we have a constitution. Please read the constitution. Take note of how many times phrases or words such as "shall make no law" or "shall not" or "No" appear. The constitution severely delimits and limits the powers granted to the federal government. Unfortunately, common sense readings of it have all but disappeared from political discourse and university campuses. People are taught the concept that it is a "living document" with the underlying premise that it can be reinterpreted any way the current political fashion or political power players may deem appropriate. If this was the intention of the founders, why even have a constitution? The constitution is a compact between the states, the people and the federal government. It is true that it may be amended, but this is not the same as reinterpreting it.

Back to the point, democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
    #679080 - 06/14/02 07:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

so do you agree that we are a republic or a democracy...I know what a democracy is and i know it's not what we are today or ever intended by the founding fathers


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: News Flash [Re: Innvertigo]
    #679199 - 06/14/02 08:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

A republic, but I fear we are losing it.

(I really was intending my post to be for people other than you because I know that I'm "preaching to the choir," I apologize for the oversight.)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
    #679366 - 06/14/02 09:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Let me first say that it is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD to claim that "democracy" does not exist in the United States of America!

Democracy takes on many forms, and we can be thankful that the pure, unfettered democracy that evolving refers to is not the form in place here.

HOWEVER

The form of democracy we have in the United States is a constitutional republic. To say that because it is a constitutional republic it is not a type of democracy is akin to saying that because this thing in my hand is a tofu sandwich, it is not a type of food. Unless you were explaining how much you hate tofu, but even then you would be wrong literally, though perhaps understood figuratively.

But for all you guys who don't hate our constitutional republic, please DO NOT be afraid to use the "D" word! The moment democracy dies in America, you won't hear any more from me, I'll throw in my towel and go live in a cave.

If "democracy" automatically equates to mob rule in your mind, your high school social studies teacher has done you a misservice. Or vice-versa.

FURTHERMORE

If you can't accept the idea that the U.S. is "a" democracy, you might be able to settle for the fact that "democracy" (not "a" democracy) is most certainly a political philosophy at work in many ways.

yours in democracy,
hongomon


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: Eightball]
    #679370 - 06/14/02 09:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Eightball, I'm afraid you're right. I don't want it to be that way. How do you think that came to be, or do you think it has been from the onset?


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OfflineEightball
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #679376 - 06/14/02 09:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

basically the more money you have, the more support there is for your cause. so if i'm some big company that has a lot of money to donate to lobbiests then my voice counts a lot more than the next person's. basically our government is very corrupt and its style will always promote this kind of buying of law and revolvment around where the big companies want it to go.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #679386 - 06/14/02 10:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The U.S. is a democraticaly elected REPUBLIC. Meaning that, we are a representative government and those representatives are democraticaly elected.

Evolving, don't get me started on "tyranny of the majority" again.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #679394 - 06/14/02 10:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

Eightball, I'm afraid you're right. I don't want it to be that way. How do you think that came to be, or do you think it has been from the onset?




Traditionally, the Senate has always been controled by the rich and the house by the average person and everyone else. The rich do control the republican party for sure and hold tremendous influence in the democratic party as well. I think this is because our current political party system is sort of a coalition system of people that join u to get their agenda passed. The democratic party is a coalition of negroes, feminists, environmentalists, and labor unions, and the poor. The GOP is a coalition of the rich, christian pro-lifers (like myself), and pro-gunners. This is just a brief example of what I'm talking about. Underneath all the politics there is the basic fact that the republicans are for the rich and upper middle class and the democratic party is for poor minorities, radical pro-abortion feminists, and working people.

It's all bout votes, and what the big shots in the party think will get the most votes. I've played both sides of the fence before. I've sat in on a meeting planning democratic campaign tactics where they discussed how to portray and deal with the NRA and protecting preserving medicare. I've sat in on republican meetings where we planned how to portray the democrats as tax and spend liberals for big government. It's all dirty politics. Anymore when I get involved at all it's about bashing democratic liberals.

But to really answer the question. Money buys access, influence, and final policy. Money buys elections by buying media access. That's how it works. Labor unions know this as well as business owners. The two work against each other. This is why we're controled by special interests, they give us money which buys air time to buy votes. A few months ago I was selling tickets to a dinner for the president for $5,000 a pop. For that they also got to go to a tax workshop, or they could pay to go to the workshop or dinner seperatly. It was all business owners that went to the dinner and workshops. The democrats have similar fundraising methods they use with their own wealthy constituancies. Not many poor people working 2 jobs to support their families could afford to go to the tax workshops to give their input on how they wanted the tax laws to change. It was all republican business owners and they went and gave their input and they got their tax cut. They paid out the nose for it, but it's nothing compared to what they'll save in taxes.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #679406 - 06/14/02 10:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

It is true that we have some democracy in the U.S., there are democratic processes for electing representatives, and the representatives use democratic processes for some decision making, etc.

What does democracy give you other than a vote? In some of the most totalitarian regimes we can observe some of the highest voter participation. What does it gain you to vote on who your slave master will be when you are still a slave?

Does a guarantee of the freedom to vote in any way guarantee freedom for anything else?

Why are the majority's decisions more valid in deciding your fate than your own decisions? Does the majority have superior knowledge of your personal situation and hence better able to decide how to run your life than you?

Where would you rather live, under a monarchy where full freedom is granted or under a democracy where everyone else has a say in running your life? Why?

Think about this hypothetical scenario: You are living in Germany in 1941, the government has been turned into a pure democracy. Anti-Semitism is rampant among your fellow Germans, Jews comprise 10% of the population, recent polls show that 60% of the voting public supports the extermination of all the Jews living in your country. Tomorrow there will be a referendum on the extermination of the Jews. You are Jewish. Explain to your fellow Jews why democracy is a superior form of government and why Jewish people should agree to go along with democratic decisions.

(note : My high school social studies teacher never covered anything like this, I'm betting that yours didn't either.)

Yours in Liberty,
Evolving


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
    #679447 - 06/14/02 11:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well, like I said, it's a good thing we don't have the unfettered democracy you mentioned in an earlier post.

A lot of your post, such as your hypothetical situation, seem to be arguments against that pure democracy. That is not the form of democracy in place in the U.S., and I honestly don't think it's in place anywhere. And it certainly isn't the form I advocate! When we try to encourage or influence the installment of a democratic government in, say, Afghanistan, or Indonesia, I'm sure it's not "pure democracy" we have in mind.

I actually don't remember high school.

Peace, and yes--liberty!
hongomon


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: Eightball]
    #679452 - 06/14/02 11:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Those were all interesting posts.

I'm not ready to believe that the system in place, this constitutional republic of our democratic nation, is not capable of reform VIA ITSELF. Meaning, the democratic process is still our best, most viable shot at improving the situation. However, I only see it through a major change at the grassroots level. And considering the current apathy of the people, it's a long-ass shot.

So we go down fighting, then. Are ya with me? Chaaaaaaaaarge.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: ]
    #679654 - 06/15/02 07:12 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

*****Explain to your fellow Jews why democracy is a superior form of government and why Jewish people should agree to go along with democratic decisions.****

That was my poinbt of the 9 people vote to kill the 10th....however you put it in more realistic terms, good post

****My high school social studies teacher never covered anything like this, I'm betting that yours didn't either****

My social studies teacher was a flaming liberal who basically taught what she believed to be right. I wish i was back in that same class with what i know know, it would be interesting to say the least.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #679662 - 06/15/02 07:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

****Well, like I said, it's a good thing we don't have the unfettered democracy you mentioned in an earlier post***

I agree, and i'm not about to deny the fact that there are certain areas where we do have majority vote, however as a whole we are still a representative republic (or that ws the intention). I do fear that eightball is correct in saying that we are a plutocracy to and extent (more than i want it to be).

****And it certainly isn't the form I advocate!****

You can call it anything you want but when the smoke clears with a different name it's still a representative republic with constitutional limits.....what's in a name?

****When we try to encourage or influence the installment of a democratic government in, say, Afghanistan, or Indonesia, I'm sure it's not "pure democracy" we have in mind.****

I'm sure you're right and maybe quite possibly the meaning of the word Democracy has changed into what we actually are. However that still doesn't mean our government is a Democracy in the true sense. The word Democracy has been a bullet point for politicians and lobbyists to put a silver lining on an otherwise lousy agenda. Who could possibly be against a Democracy?...I for one am against it...that's why we elect our representatives ie: representaive republic.

****I actually don't remember high school.****

That's not neccesarily a bad thing....high school government classes are a joke

****Peace, and yes--liberty!****

Well said


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: News Flash [Re: hongomon]
    #679666 - 06/15/02 07:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

****I only see it through a major change at the grassroots level****

I had a discussion with a neighbor about this once and i could be wrong but i feel that a grass roots movement would have little effect because they hold no power when compared to the big-wigs in the federal government. (however i do see your point). I've always been one for changing from the top down as opposed to the bottom up approach. This isn't a fool proof plan and it sure has it's holes but that's how i see how change can be performed.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: News Flash [Re: Innvertigo]
    #679809 - 06/15/02 09:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well, now you're just squirming. Face it--Democracy is a fundamental of U.S. government. Our constitutional republic is a form of democracy. Period.

The next time someone asks you if democracy exists in America, just say yes.

As for the top-to-bottom vs. bottom-to-top approach, I'm glad that there are people taking it on at both ends.


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