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Invisibleagar
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PC'ing jars the WRONG way * 1
    #6677672 - 03/16/07 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

A lot of folks, even some fairly experienced ones.
Sometimes have trouble with the BOTTOM of wbs/grain jars.
OVERCOOKING, BOTTOM JAR GRAINS BURSTING & GETTING SLUDGY
(bottom inch or so of wbs/grain jars)

Resulting in that part of the jar, not colonizing well.

Most often, when the bottom of PC'ed wbs/grain jars overcook
(bottom grains burst, get sludgy & will not colonize well)

It is usually caused by a combination of factors.

1. Trivet in PC is to short.
Meaning, bottom of jars gets overheated & cooks.

2. Jars have excess water in bottom, which boils & bursts grains.

3. Jars are in standing water, which boils & cooks grains.

4. Not SHAKING jars, HOT out of the PC.

Shaking jar content HOT out of the PC.
Will usually redistribute overcooked content.
With upper content, that is NOT overcooked.

Now, to the problem itself: Think about it.
Boil wbs/grains to long in an open pot, THEY BURST.
Same goes for wbs/grain in a jar, in a PC.

A lot depends on the PC type, each person uses.

AA's don't require much water.
(especially those fitted with a toggle pressure valve)
My 941 only calls 2 or 3 pints of water.
So NO water is standing above the trivet.
Which is a GOOD THING.

But, not all PC's are built the same.
Or, have an AA type toggle valve.
Not all PC's are tall enough to double stack jars.
Some PC's require MORE water, than others.
(otherwise, they run DRY, over time)
Some used PC's did not come with a trivet.
(and folks use a towel, instead)

So problems can occur, any number of ways.

HINT, Any PC should be PRE-HEATED to boiling.
Before loading jars.

Here is why.
If preheated, once loaded, pressure builds FASTER.
If not preheated, water takes TIME to come to a boil.
The jars moisture content, also comes to a boil.
Before steam is created, & steam + heat = PRESSURE.

So, if jar content is slightly to wet.
Water settles to the bottom of jars.
That water boils, right along with the water in a PC.
So, it boils the wbs/grains, in the bottom of the jar.

Also, a PC generates heat from the BOTTOM of the pot.
So, jars setting on the bottom are exposed to MORE heat.
At least until pressure equalizes inside the pot.
Which tends to overcook, the wbs/grain, in the jar bottom.
Which are in direct contact with the PC bottom.

If you have a PC that you can stack quart jars in 2 high.
Next time, mark the jars on the top stack.
If the wbs/grains in the jar bottoms, of the top stack.
Does not over-cook, burst & get sludgy.
And, the wbs/grain in the bottom of the jars:
on the bottom stack does over-cook, burst and get sludgy.

Any, or all of the issues mentioned above, are the cause.
Which you have to alleviate, to stop them from doing that.

Which includes using a higher trivet.
(try a small plate (or 2) over the existing trivet)
Pre-heating the PC, before loading.
Not having jars setting directly in water, in the PC.
Get the PC up to pressure QUICKLY.
(so jar content boils, less time)
PC at a slightly lower temperature (psi), slightly longer.

Remember, the bottom of a PC acts just like a skillet.
In a skillet, a thick steak, cooks from the BOTTOM UP.
So do wbs/grain jars in a PC.
(at least until the internal pressure equalizes)

So, you have to elevate the bottom of wbs/grain jars.
Away from that initial source of DIRECT HEAT on the PC bottom.
As best you can.
Plus, shake jars HOT out of the PC.
Then, shake again, just prior to inoculation.

I hope these hints help alleviate the problem.
If it is a problem any of you have.


--------------------

Edited by agar (03/16/07 07:13 PM)

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OfflineSpirit_Warrior
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Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 132
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: PC'ing jars [Re: agar] * 1
    #6677740 - 03/16/07 05:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Hey Agar, My last problem while PCooking was not too much water, however I feel, too little water. Most of the seeds were seperated, maybe some small clumps of 3-5 seeds together after pressure cooking, but hardly any.

Can you give me your opinion, I was using your WBS soaking Teknique which has always seemed to work before. Here is the link..

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6674870/an/0/page/0

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 9,220
Re: PC'ing jars [Re: Spirit_Warrior]
    #6678193 - 03/16/07 08:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you Agar :yourock:

I have the bust kernel at the bottom problem every now and than and I look forward to seeing if preheating the PC puts an end to it as I know it isn't the other factors that you mention

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Offlinetonyperez420
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 1,234
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: PC'ing jars [Re: Blutjager]
    #6678482 - 03/16/07 09:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ha thats funny

I never had such a problem

introspective write up nevertheless :thumbup:

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OfflineGrogan
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Re: PC'ing jars [Re: tonyperez420]
    #6678780 - 03/16/07 11:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you thank you... Maybe now I will no longer have jars with tops and bottoms not colonized haha


--------------------
"Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL

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OfflineLegend9123
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Registered: 09/24/06
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: agar]
    #6679131 - 03/17/07 02:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not something I personally have a problem with but I am sure some other members do. Either way, your insight never ceases to amaze.


--------------------
Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Posts: 4,696
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: Legend9123]
    #6679391 - 03/17/07 06:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

agar:
"Not SHAKING jars, HOT out of the PC."...
and again before inoculation.

good reminder.
as the grain cools any moisture "driven out"during the pc run
will condense and percolate under gravity to the bottom of the jar.
a good shake to redistribute the moist grain can only be good,
considering you will be adding more water via the ms/lc inoc.

as i sometimes get carried away inoculating jars,one got 6 ml.
i like to hold the jar at an angle and strafe the grain, turn towards me, and strafe again.
i give myself ten points for a "direct hit" on sunflower seeds
and the yellow split peas,
:rolleyes:...>:stoned: as these seem to be the last type of grain to colonize.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule

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OfflineVampireSlayer
killing ghosts,zombies andvampires forlife
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Registered: 08/26/06
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: deucedbi9]
    #6679412 - 03/17/07 07:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thanks agar! mine are always burting at the bottom.


--------------------
I Don't come to fight flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high and low places

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InvisibleRoachMan
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: agar]
    #6679460 - 03/17/07 08:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Agar, however, I FINALLY perfected the PCing of rye berries the other day.

MUCH rinsing during soak, and after simmer with more super-hot water.

Loaded into the jars.

When pre-heating my PC I put a mason full of water into the microwave, get it boiling, and then dump it into the already preheated PC, load jars, PC, and then cool overnight.

Took the jars out after 8-10 hour cooldown, and was able to shake them with ONE HAND.  (This is a first for me.)

I'm :grin: from ear to ear because the AF-LC used has visible growth in a day and a half.  I'm SO happy; thanks again Agar for all the pressure cooker information you have provided to me (us) over the years.

Now; anybody have an AA they are not using?  LOL  If you'll let me purchase it at discount I will ship mine to a winner of a contest or something.

Anybody feel free to PM me about this, for help/opinions on anything, or just to chat a bit.


--------------------
"The mistake that I make is to try to come awake in a place you're just supposed to get shit faced or baked."

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Invisiblegeko
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Registered: 01/15/07 Happy 18th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 338
PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: RoachMan]
    #6679743 - 03/17/07 10:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am sorry Agar, what you describe is far from the real thing (PC'ing the wrong way). Here it is:



This happened exactly 20 minutes ago :rofl:  ... and the amazing thing is that I am still alive! :rofl2:

If someone is interested in duplicating the experiment, I'll write a detailed TEK. :lol:

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,314
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: geko]
    #6679777 - 03/17/07 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm guessing that the bottom trivet should sit above the water mark when pre-heating the PC.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

"If you knew how quickly people forget the dead... you would stop living to impress people." — Christopher Walken

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Invisiblegeko
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Registered: 01/15/07 Happy 18th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 338
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: Rahz]
    #6679878 - 03/17/07 11:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I'm guessing that the bottom trivet should sit above the water mark when pre-heating the PC.




No, no, no, this is way too simple explanation. For my thing you need a PC without a trivet :smile:

Here is the TEK:

First certain things should be done. You should have just PC'ed several jars, so you are tired and do not really want to do more shroomy things for the day. Then you should spot accidentally a forgotten jar, which sits in some corner, begging and wailing to be PC'ed. Then, as a sensitive soul you should feel genuine compassion for the jar, and putting all egocentric thoughts and desires aside, you should decide that helping this jar is more important than your own well being for the evening. If all these conditions are met, you can embark on the actual TEK:

1. You take your PC, and put on a synthetic (very important!) towel on the bottom, to protect the precious jar.
2. You fill the PC with about 3 inches of water (too much is not good for the desired results).
3. You put the jar in the PC, close the lid and put the PC on the gas stove, making sure it is turned on maximum heat.
4. You leave the room, go upstairs (there has to be an "upstairs"!), lay down, relax, do nice things.

This is all, you're done!

What will happen after a while is that someone will run into your room, half dead, both hands holding the throat, eyes rolling like crazy, gasping for air and will try to tell you with considerable difficulty that the house is filled with deadly smoke and it is not possible to tell where it is coming from. Then you will go out of the room, only to find out that the house is filled with deadly smoke, which prevents you from inhaling a single gulp of air. You may manage to go out in the yard to save yourself. After some reanimation you will take a deep breath, dash to the kitchen and find the PC screaming and covered with some unimaginable stinking and sticky fluid. You will take it out with a last burst of effort, put it on the grass, and start pouring water with the garden hose, trying not to get in the way of the (still deadly) fumes. After some more struggle, you may finally manage to open it only to see inside something which will remind you of a small scale nuclear experiment. You will probably panic and start pouring water inside.
Then, after you make certain that you are alive (things happen fast, you know), you will remember that there was a thread entitled "PC'ing jars the WRONG way" and a thought is likely to come to your mind... "These guys don't really know that they are talking about..."

Sooo, that's it. The scientific conclusion is that synthetic towels melt under extreme heat, that the resulting material is capable of clogging the vents of a PC, that a PC is a strong thing and can withstand amazingly high pressure.... and that you yourself are still a lucky bastard :cool:

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InvisibleBlutjager
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Registered: 06/11/06
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: geko]
    #6679992 - 03/17/07 12:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nice tek.I think it should be stickied:lol:

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Invisiblexjuan
chico nuevo


Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 226
Loc: rocky mountains Flag
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: agar] * 1
    #6774591 - 04/11/07 11:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Good info, but,



Quote:

agar said:
HINT, Any PC should be PRE-HEATED to boiling.
Before loading jars.





Be careful with this one folks.  I followed this tip last night and ended up with a shattered jar. :foreheadslap:

    Glass needs to heat slowly.  Cool jars + hot water = glass and rye soup.  Not a fun situation to clean up when just starting a procedure.

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Invisiblegeko
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Registered: 01/15/07 Happy 18th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 338
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: xjuan]
    #6774597 - 04/11/07 11:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Very true!! I myself wondered why Agar said this!

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Invisiblexjuan
chico nuevo


Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 226
Loc: rocky mountains Flag
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: geko]
    #6774620 - 04/11/07 11:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It may work fine for units with a tall trivet, high above the water line. But with splashing etc. it seems risky. I won't be trying it again.

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Invisiblefearfect

Registered: 01/15/04 Happy 21st Shroomiversary!
Posts: 1,845
Loc: Flag
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: xjuan]
    #6774647 - 04/11/07 11:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xjuan said:
Good info, but,



Quote:

agar said:
HINT, Any PC should be PRE-HEATED to boiling.
Before loading jars.





Be careful with this one folks.  I followed this tip last night and ended up with a shattered jar. :foreheadslap:

    Glass needs to heat slowly.  Cool jars + hot water = glass and rye soup.  Not a fun situation to clean up when just starting a procedure.




shouldn't be a problem if the jars aren't sitting in the boiling water.

What I do is boil the water in a small pot, pour it into the PC, set the quarts on the metal pan that is resting ABOVE the boiling water.

All the water in a PC is used for is to create pressure. It is best that the jars never be in contact with the water while it is liquid. If you do it right, the jars will pressurize slowly and evenly to avoid shattering.

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Invisiblexjuan
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 226
Loc: rocky mountains Flag
Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: fearfect]
    #6774705 - 04/11/07 11:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not questioning the fundamentals of how a PC works.  I'm only saying  preheating may result in broken jars.  :wink:

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Invisibleagar
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: xjuan] * 1
    #6774869 - 04/11/07 12:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Opps, I'm sorry for that.

Yup, old agar should have clarified that far better.

I use AA PC's.
They are made of 1/2 or 5/8ths inch thick cast aluminum.
They also have a heavy duty trivet.

Because they are so thick, it takes awhile for them to heat up.
Secondly, they use so little water, no jar touches the water.
As, all the water is below the trivet.

So, I pre/heat the PC, so it will pressure up faster.

Reality is, if you don't have an AA, DON'T do that.
Because, setting a cold jar, in hot water, could (as in this case) cause a jar to crack/bust.

My MISTAKE & I feel foolish, I did not explain it better.

I sent you a PM.


--------------------

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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Posts: 4,696
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Re: PC'ing jars the WRONG way [Re: xjuan]
    #6774879 - 04/11/07 12:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

xjuan:
"Be careful with this one folks. I followed this tip last night and ended up with a shattered jar."

were your jars straight out of a fridge?
anyhow,you could try pre-heating the jars before you load them into the pc.
after filling the jars,stand them in a bowl with a few inches of hand hot water
while you bring the water in the pc to the boil.
or, put them in just as the water starts to simmer.

just saw your reply agar.
my pc is only a 6 quart with a quarter inch trivet.
have'nt had one crack yet and have forgotten to pre-heat jars on occasion.

may just be bad luck.:sad:


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule

Edited by deucedbi9 (04/11/07 12:30 PM)

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