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Offlinexmush
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6774059 - 04/11/07 09:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Ahh once again MJ using a combination of ad hominem attacks, obscure quotations, and illegible writing of his own to prove nothing! I am not a proffesional mycologist, but I am a professional scientist, and my impression of guzman is that his scientific growth stopped right around the same time that taxonomy became dominated by DNA studies. I don't understand how someone can continue to publish descriptions of new species while turning a blind eye to molecular biology. This doesn't discredit his enormous body of work and astounding contributions to fungal taxonomy, but it should make one skeptical of his recent work.

And in the field of taxonomy, you basically get two kinds of scientists, lumpers and splitters. Lumpers like to find the commonalities between species, in an attempt to lump them together into 1 species. Splitters look for any differences they can identify in an attempt to create new species, which they then get the honor of naming. Guzman is clearly a splitter. But splitting in the absence of molecular information is nonsense. If Guzman was a mammalian taxonomist, we would have 1000s of species of domesticated dog as he would certainly split great danes from german shepards from poodles etc. etc., when in fact they are clearly the same species.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: xmush]
    #6774161 - 04/11/07 10:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps I should not have posted the email from Dr. Guzman.  :undecided:

Let's use the principle of charity here gentlemen. Guzman, Mj, and Falcon are all intelligent and respectable members of the mycological community, but none of them (none of us) are beyond making a mistake.

I personally think the problem with naming mushrooms stems from a systemic deficiency in canonical taxonomy. The system of binomial nomenclature was first developed by Aristotle 2300 years ago to classify plants and animals. It assumes two false premises:

1) That species are distinct, fixed, and eternal.

and

2) That living things have two parents.


The second premise does not hold true for fungi who can have thousands of parents, and the first is refuted by Darwin who showed living things are evolving such that there is frequently a fuzzy edge between species. Species are stable only within a balanced ecosystem and within a regular climate, wherever there is an unstable environment, or a race to secure a place in a community evolving into a balanced ecosystem, species adapt to the dynamic environment.

With each mushroom producing millions of spores, and with thousands of spores from different mushrooms coming together to form a single colony, evolution moves orders of magnitude faster in the kingdom Fungi than in Plantae or Animilia.

Furthermore, the criterion for distinguishing between species has classically been the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring. I suspect this criterion might not apply to fungi that can just as readily be described as colonies of cooperating single-celled animals as as they can be called 'organisms' in the sense that plants and animals are organisms. Consider the slime molds.

In falcon's defense, I would like to point out that he has information concerning Bethany that others of us do not. Bethany was identified as P. caerulipes by MrMushrooms (whoever he is).


Let's talk about this with open minds. Appeals to authority and ad hominems will not advance knowledge, and advancing knowledge is the purpose of this forum.
...........................

MJ,

It is my understanding that Guzman received samples of P. ovoideocystidiata from an unknown source in Pennsylvania last year, and has yet to publish a paper describing the species. Until the paper is published, the name is not official. I wish Dr. Guzman would join us here for this discussion, and I wish others on this board would give him the respect he has clearly earned, even if he is mistaken about this one little thing.

It is very good to be having this discussion. :laugh:

Maybe this thread should be moved to advanced mycology in a few days, after it has been here long enough for all the hunting forum regulars to see it.

It feels like we are on the leading edge of something new, not just a new species, but perhaps a new way of doing fungal taxonomy. Let's keep the conversation going, and let's keep it respectful.

Peace,
Dan


Edited by shroomydan (04/11/07 03:42 PM)


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Offlinexmush
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: shroomydan]
    #6774192 - 04/11/07 10:31 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Well said Father Dan.


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OfflineRansford
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: xmush]
    #6774345 - 04/11/07 11:46 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Did we all just get in a fight!!!!

:jointsmile:
:bigjoint:
:gethigh:

Know everyone hit this and coll off!


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: shroomydan]
    #6774851 - 04/11/07 02:15 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Well, there is a "new" Nomenclature, known as Phylogenetics, which focuses on the relations between organisms.

It is, however, still in its infancy, and thus, not yet functional, in the sense that organisms cannot yet be easily represented in a few descriptive words- a chart is pretty much necessary at this point.

Phylogeny is gaining a foot hold, and will continue to make a presence in the scientific community, even if it is not yet fully operable.

Anyway, I think I am going to stay on the side lines for this one.  :supershroom:


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: CureCat]
    #6775251 - 04/11/07 03:55 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Phylogeny is a great tool, but when taken to an extreme every organism has a unique chart, except perhaps in the case of clones and identical twins.

At the other extreme, if one takes the cannonical view that all life evolved from a single common ansestor, then phylogeny could argue for a single species called "life".

At which junction of downward radiating branches does one place a species marker?


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6775875 - 04/11/07 06:23 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Falcon,

Dr. Guzmán did not rename Psilocybe caerulipes as Psilocybe ovoideocystidia mushroom.
Quote:


Shroomy Dan;s species is Psilocybe ovoideocystidia.

And the taxonomic paper for that species is not written by Dr. Guzmán.

And Psilocybe caerulipes, is a separate species from Psilocybe ovoideocystidia.

Taking comments from Dr. Guzmán's letter and reinventing them into your own interpretation is incorrect.




Hey MJ,

Who wrote the paper describing ovoideocystitia?

Dan's mushroom is Psilocybe caerulipes.

It my feelin that there is only one species of blueing woodloving mushroom in the genus Psilocybe that has the following macroscopic characteristics.

A carmel colored, hydrophagous, viscid cap, that if the humidity is high the edges turn up when mature. The cap bruises blue and more easily when the mushroom is young or when the the air is dry and cool.

Pale tan gills that darken to purple brown as spores mature, when the ambient tempature is above 70 degrees for extended periods as the mushroom is producing spores the gills will turn violet.

A white fibrillose stem that becomes cartiligenous and sometimes hollow when it becomes older. Strandy rhyzomorphic growth at the base of the stem. This stem can be induced to be longer by covering the substrate that they are growing on with soil or organic matter the portion of the stem that is covered or is pushing up through porous substrate will have strandy rootlets extending away from the stem.

The stem has a superior evanescent veil.

The spore print is brown purple.

The stem, the strandy rhyzomorphs, the mycelium that the grows around the substrate that the mushroom is growing from will bruise blue, especially if exposed to cool dry air.

The stem is easily induced into a vegetative state when is put on wet low nutrient substrates in an enviroment of high humidity, and onto more nutrient substrates as the tempature approaches freezing.

The closer the tempature gets to freezing, but not freezing or below, the more likely the mushroom is to return to the vegatative state when put in the presence of celluse containing material in a high humidity enviroment, when the mushroom is removed from the substrate is growing on. As the tempature approaches freezing, not only the stem, but the cap in immature(cap edges still hugging the stem) will return to the vegetative state{will have mycelium growing from them that will colonize substrate).

I think this description covers pretty much all of the woodloving active psilocybin mushrooms that I have seen, I think there may be more than one species of this kind, but microscopic analysis is not going to convince me that something is a different species, when the physical characteristics are so close.

Of the mushrooms that I have seen caerulipes is the only one that consistantly fruits in the spring. And now you tell me there are two and they share the same range and they are identical in everyway, that I can sense, and they are not the same.

I have more to say, I'm going to stretch my legs and look for some morels.
Found none nice walk though.


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: falcon]
    #6775919 - 04/11/07 06:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Mj had a bad trip


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6775963 - 04/11/07 06:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
Psychoslut and Falcon. I wonder what the fuck your credentials are.





MJ, why is it that every time you disagree with someone in this forum you feel the need to insult them and curse? That kind of stuff isn't going to be tolerated in this forum.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: falcon]
    #6776011 - 04/11/07 07:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

That paper is in press and I am not suppose to post data about it. Dan posted the letter and it really should have not been mentioned to anyone here until after the paper was in print. Right now it is in Press.

Also, Dan and I, along with Jochen Gartz and Prakitsin Sihanonth already have chemical analysis and SEM work of the species and we will publish by the late summer or end of the year on that and it will probably include cultivation by another shroomer named Mushpuppet. Dan and I have already started this collaboration last summer. This can be said because we are not revealing what the full content of the paper is.

Dr. Guzmán was going to name the species in my name in honor of my work for thirty-five years, but as the letter reveals, it is already a species whose name is in transit waiting for the printers.

Generally it takes anywhere from 6 months up to three years to get a paper in print in a reputable journal. That is because others are in front of your work and you wait as they did.

IF course a one page short communication to the journals at most journals can be placed in a few months. A four to six page paper longer,etc.

I will keep everyone posted.

Regarding my earlier comments which xmush took a dive at me, I want to point out that you said you were a professional scientist. Well, someone with those credentials would never belittle or disavow the life research of another professional scholar, nor put him down or his methods of what he does. Especially ones who earned their positions.

I known several hundred scholars who are profession in that they have never said a negative word of others work. Something you seem to infer in regards to Guzmán's work.

And taxonomy, regardless of DNA sequencing and similar work is valid period because it is taught in every university and community college across the country as is the classification of all living beings. Yes the earth is one so we all share the same dna. But to the tens of thousands of mushroom enthusiasts who seek out edibles and others, they rely on those books and guides and keys for identifications. They care not about DNA of a species. That does not help them in the least in identifying anything.

Right now the primary focus of DNA studies in America and elsewhere are for law enforcement, to convict or free people wrongly convicted of rape or murder and for paternity.

Singers, Agaricales. McIllvanes 1001 American Mushrooms, Kaufman's guides, Gary Lincoff's Audubon and Simon and Shulster's field Guides, Orson Miller, David Arora's two Guides, Dr. Joseph Amirati's two books on Poisonous and toxic Shrooms of PNW and Canada. And hundreds of other such field guides worldwide.

As for validity in such research I now point to my friend, the late Dr. Richard Evans Schultes.

He spent 14 years in teh Amazon jungles, rarely saw another white person for five years at a time.

Discover and wrote the descriptions of more than 24,000 plants new to science, of which more than 83 were psychoactive.

Was the world's leading expert on Rubber plants for world war two, as well a s the leading expert in arrow poisons (curare), and was also the leading expert on Orchids int he world.

Now that is a professional scientist.

mj

And the hundreds of other mycologists who study and write on the taxonomy of the species or the hundreds of thousand pickers of edible mushrooms who rely on the works of those people who wrote those guides for their identification.. The books and taxonomy on those shrooms are

I also just finished recently last xmas, the same chemical analysis and SEM work for cactu, P. laurrae and P. villarealii.

I may spend two weeks in Mexico this summer after i come back from the Nederland's and before I go to Cambodia.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (04/12/07 03:59 PM)


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Offlinexmush
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6776069 - 04/11/07 07:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
Regarding my earlier comments which xmush took a dive at me, I want to point out that you said you were a professional scientist. Well, someone with those credentials would never belittle or disavow the life research of another professional scholar, nor put him down or his methods of what he does. Especially ones who earned their positions.




You've clearly not spent much time around professional scientists. PIssing matches are the rule, not the exception. I apologize if I came off as belittling his life's research. In fact if you read what I wrote, I was trying only to cast doubt on his recent research, which appears to ignore the more cutting edge methods (molecular biology) in his field. I followed that up by paying homage to his life's work, which has brought us very far. However that type of work can only bring us so far in light of advancement of methods. And I only brought up the professional scientist part since your argument tactic against all others consists of hostility and personal attacks.

Quote:


I known several hundred scholars who are profession in that they have never said a negative word of others work. Something you seem to infer in regards to Guzmán's work.





I have no idea what that statement means or what I am meant to be inferring.


Quote:


Right now the primary focus of DNA studies in America and elsewhere are for law enforcement, to convict or free people wrongly convicted of rape or murder and for paternity.





This is the most outlandish of all of the outlandish things you have written on this site. I suggest perusing a basic molecular biology textbook and in the meantime, to quote you, 'don't post on that which you have no knowledge.'

MJ and others, the purpose of scientific work is to put forth ideas to the public so that they may be challenged, and challenged fiercly. Publishing papers is NOT science. Having the ideas in those papers challenged in open forums whether they be meetings and conventions, or a lowly internet bulletin board, is the foundation of scientific progress. Unchallenged ideas are worthless in science. And real scientists take no offense to criticism of their work.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: xmush]
    #6776179 - 04/11/07 07:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I was trying only to cast doubt on his recent research, which appears to ignore the more cutting edge methods (molecular biology) in his field.

Dr. Guzman is a mycologist. He is not a molecular biologist. That is another field of study.

And as for Guzman, it was basically Falcon and Psychoslut who were applying those words to responses to each other and then others who come along and add tot he misinformation.

Anyway, have a shroomy day.

mj


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6777205 - 04/12/07 12:19 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

And taxonomy, regardless of DNA sequencing and similar work is valid period because it is taught in evry university adn community college across the coountry as is the classification of all living beings. Yes the earth is one so we allshare the saem dns. But to the tens of thousands of mushroom enthusiasts who seek out edibles and others, they rely on those books and guides and keys for identifications. They care not about DNA of a species. That does not help them in the least in identifying anything.

It does not help when a species has two names.
Shroomydan's mushroom matches in every detail, the descriptions of Psilocybe caerulipes.

At every university and community college across the country
they are teaching that DNA analysis along with mating studies is the way to delineate species.


Edited by falcon (04/12/07 12:21 AM)


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: falcon]
    #6777299 - 04/12/07 12:44 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Here's an idea, although I only have limited knowledge of mycology so it maybe a bad one. Colonize a print which is without question caerulipes and then colonize shroomydans print and see if the species has the ability to mate with each other. Or is this not a possible test to perform?


--------------------
All of my posts are purely fictional and for hypothetical purposes.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: jeverden]
    #6777345 - 04/12/07 12:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

It's a good idea, but unnecessary as the mushroom in question is Psilocybe caerulipes.


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: falcon]
    #6780686 - 04/12/07 10:54 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Again Falcon,

you are wrong.

P. caerulipes is an east coast mushroom, also known of from Michigan (a few dozen collections), Ontario (several collections), one collection from Ohio, and their range is from South Carolina to Massachusetts and some regions of southern Ontario, along the Michigan to New York border area. And recently several collections in Mexico. Also noted in Paul's book.


P. ovoideocystidiata is, so far, only known of from Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia and not along the eastern seaboard.

In Stamets, he shows one actual photo of P.caerulipes and also one similar to Dan's shroom.

Paul has errors in his text regarding this shroom, as he has others throughout his book.

I do not need to go into that at this moment.

You need to find yourself a copy of Peck's original taxonomic paper on P. caerulipes species and the updated one by Saccardo which would read as Psilocybe caerulipes [Peck] Sacc. And then read Dr. Rolf Singer's update on those papers in Mycologia vol. 50, 1959. And then Dr. Guzmán's update in 1978.

Also, the image in Paul's book of P. caerulipes with the yellowed-caps was loaned to him by Gary Lincoff (author and editor of the Audubon Field Guide).

Orignally, University of Michigan's leading Mycologist, the late Dr. Alexander H. Smith published the first known photograph of P. caerulipes in his Mushrooms of the Eastern united States field Guide in the 1970s.

the two images of P. caerulipes in Paul's book says the bluing is very slow in coming on in the stipe of the species while Lincoff says it is greenish and then greenish-blue to slightly blue. Both of their guides used generic descriptions from both Peck's original Latin descriptions the generic description as the bluing is actually a greenish color and then slightly turns blue and from Guzman's descriptions based on Singers version and then from Guzmán's descriptions of several Mexican east coast collections which were found amongst Fagus trees. Which are also common on the east coast of America.

There are plenty of the descriptions of that mushroom in those three papers and very little are similar to P. ovoideocystidiata.

Also this statement posted above in your post shows that you are incorrect as to why you identified Dan's shrooms as P. caerulipes.

At the beginning of your post you said:

Quote:

It my feelin that there is only one species of blueing woodloving mushroom in the genus Psilocybe that has the following macroscopic characteristics.




and then you gave a generic description. However, your description also could be, P. cyanescens, P. maire, P australiana, P. Tasmainiana, P. subaeruginosa and several others.

Then at the end of the post you say something opposite of the above paragraph;

Quote:

I think this description covers pretty much all of the woodloving active psilocybin mushrooms that I have seen, I think there may be more than one species of this kind, but microscopic analysis is not going to convince me that something is a different species, when the physical characteristics are so close.




All mushrooms in every field guide were delineated by microscopic identification, not because of their physical appearances. Your statement that in your mind, a mycological difference in the species is wrong and because they look alike they are the same species. that is poor science.

One final note is that P. caerulipes belongs to the stirps:
Semilanceatae and P. olivideocystidiata belongs to the stirps: Stuntzae.

mj


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6780933 - 04/12/07 11:49 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Caerulipes can look very different depending on the humidity and the tempature that it fruits . I have seen fruits that look look like, weilii, cyanescens, azurescens and the distinctive
crinkled gills of the cold fruiting caerulipes with its dome shaped  cap from the same bed of wood chips at different times of the year. Do not presume to tell me about caerulipes, you have no first hand experience with it. It can fruit year round, that's right, every month of the year, in the same location, out of the same bed of chips that are tightly knit by mycelia into cake that is hard to break up.
Pretty weird, huh? Just because Peck didn't include year round fruiting in his description, don't make it not so.  You pick at tiny bits of information and miss the big picture MJ. In this I am not wrong, you are, Guzman is, and whoever wrote the paper about oviodeocystidia is. It is my hope that whoever wrote that paper, for their own sake sees this post and stops the presses and reconsiders before they publish, for their own sake.

Psilocybe caerulipes and cyanescens are very likely co-specific, at the very least they are closely related enough that exposure of cyanscens beds to caerulipes mycelium can convert the cyanescens into a crinkled gill, spring fruiting species.

One final note is that P. caerulipes belongs to the stirps:
Semilanceatae and P. olivideocystidiata belongs to the stirps: Stuntzae.


:lol:

Someone told you that, right. Can you tell me what that means. What is it about caerulipes that puts it in the stirps Semilanceatae?

Fagus is common on the East Coast?
Maybe in some places, but common, you read this somewhere, huh? Been to east coast lately and seen a lot of Beech?

I don't think we are on the same page here, MJ.

There are plenty of the descriptions of that mushroom in those three papers and very little are similar to P. ovoideocystidiata.

Then why would Guzman say that Dan's mushroom is ovoideaocystidiata, when Dan's mushroom is caerulipes?


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: falcon]
    #6781148 - 04/13/07 12:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

the meaning of the word stirps.

Main Entry: stirp
Pronunciation: 'st&rp
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin stirp-, stirps
: a line descending from a common ancestor : STOCK, LINEAGE

I should have used the word Section but the
genus Psilocybe is devided into many sections.

nmd those sections are the KEY for the identification of the mushrooms in each section.,

Go to your local university adn maybe no one has yet ripped off the copy of Guman's Book, The Genus PSilocybe.

You are still wrong and no matter what you say, unless youpubloish, in a journal of your peers, a debunking paper on the species, It will be Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata no matter what you post here.

And P. cyansecens belongs to the section cyanescens of the Psilocybe genera.

Each stirps or section contains a list of particular mushrooms, delineated by their microscopic features and differences, and by the size of their spores and the range of the spores.

And I will not respond again to your persistent viewpoint of what you think you know by your macroscopic id of two different mushrooms. You claim you know the blue staining features of P. caerulipes but I really doubt that you have ever really found or collected any of that spedcies.

I still say the shroom is P. olivideocystidia and it will also appear in Paul Stamet's 2nd volume to PMOTW.

And in my forthcoming field guide "Magic Mushrooms of the United States and Canada" for publication early next year. And I will be sure to write a few paragraphs of your unknowleable comments about what you think you know about this species and just how wrong you are.

Oh yes, you need to re look at your post about your identification of what you said was P. caeruulipes and correct the wrong mycological words you used and a few others.

mj


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: falcon]
    #6781185 - 04/13/07 12:42 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You wrote:
Quote:

In this I am not wrong, you are, Guzman is, and whoever wrote the paper about oviodeocystidia is. It is my hope that whoever wrote that paper, for their own sake sees this post and stops the presses and reconsiders before they publish, for their own sake.




Scholars have very little confidnece in what people write on forums which promote drugs and drug use.

Paul Stamets, ALbert Hofmann Jonathan Ott, Dennis McKenna, and others do not post on the internet in this forum or any other similar forum.

They avoid the insanity of having to bitch fight with people who are not qualified as they are to speak.

They find them inaccurate and disturbing, and I am speaking with full knowledge of may of them whom I write abou8t and lecture with.

mj
mj


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Invisiblecoon
big odd son


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Re: Bluefoot is Psilocybe caerulipes and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6781193 - 04/13/07 12:44 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

is there a release date for PMOTW volume 2?


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