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moosehead
poop deck


Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 9,741
Loc: pnw
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
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are you for real?
#6758707 - 04/07/07 06:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: are you for real? [Re: moosehead]
#6760084 - 04/08/07 03:16 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pretty interesting
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: are you for real? [Re: Arp]
#6760596 - 04/08/07 09:32 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
4-Hydroxy-5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, Psilocybe mushrooms, Psilocin Dear Dr. Shulgin:
I have been puzzled, why this compound (4-HO-5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine) wasn't included in TIHKAL -- for me it looks very appealing. Have you by the way, ever looked into cathinone (beta-keto-amphetamine) analogues of some of the psychedelic amphetamines (DOB, TMA-2, etc.) The MDMA-analogue (Methylone) is active indeed, do you think the 2,4-5-substitution pattern could be applied onto the CATs?
_Anon_
Dear _Anon_,
I totally agree with you.
4-Hydroxy-5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine would be a fascinating compound to explore. The reason it's not in TIKHAL is that it is virtually unknown. The only report of it in the chemical literature was a paper published by Marc Julia's group at the Pasteur Institute in 1965. They reported the synthesis and physical properties of the compound but to my knowledge it has never been explored in any way. The synthesis is quite a frightening thing. It starts with ortho-vanillin and takes approximately 10 steps to get to the 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT. I'm not surprised that no one has pursued the compound.
However there is a very interesting study that took place in Leipzig about 15 years ago. Jochen Gartz, a mushroom explorer whom I know quite well, has done some fascinating studies with Psilocybe species by raising them on solid media containing strange tryptamines that are alien to the mushroom. Apparently the enzymes that are responsible for the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin are indifferent to what it is they choose to 4-hydroxylate. He has taken things like DPT or DIPT and put them in the growth media and the fruiting bodies that came out contain 4-hydroxy-DPT or 4-hydroxy-DIPT instead of psilocin. In fact, he has a patent on the process. These active compounds are made by the mushroom so they really are natural and yet they never have been observed in nature. I'll give you even odds that if you put spores of a psilocybe species on cow droppings loaded with 5-MeO-DMT you would come out with mushrooms containing 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT. This way you avoid a 10 step synthesis by growing a psychoactive mushroom that contains no illegal drug.
Your idea of making analogues of the psychoactive amphetamines with the carbonyl that is characteristic of CAT would probably be a disappointment. Cathinone itself is rather unstable because there is a primary amine and a ketone in the same molecule. It will tend to dimerize and become inactive. In the example of METHYLONE (as with methcathinone) the amine is a secondary amine and the compound is quite stable. But all of the psychoactive amphetamines (except for MDMA) are primary amines.
- Dr. Shulgin
http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/index.html
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poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator



Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 5,248
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Re: are you for real? *DELETED* [Re: shroomydan]
#6768954 - 04/10/07 07:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: are you for real? [Re: poke smot!]
#6773261 - 04/10/07 11:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Kamin



Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 449
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: are you for real? [Re: fastfred]
#6773506 - 04/11/07 12:36 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I pretty much adore Shulgin. Reading his work made me want to take Organic Chem, but I decided that without his brain I would miserably fail it...I can't do chemistry
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Void_Dragon
dragon


Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 14
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Re: are you for real? [Re: moosehead]
#6953271 - 05/22/07 06:49 PM (17 years, 1 day ago) |
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I've found river grass I collect to make the most potent mushrooms with more visuals and a clearer smoother high. I assume this grass has DMT in it. Thats what I always assumed anyway.
Dont try morning glory ... it makes a bad high...
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KillrX
In a Prple HaZe



Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 313
Loc: Lost in,Florida
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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-------------------- Iam Insane and You are My Insanity.
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CaptainLinger
A Fungus Amongus

Registered: 05/25/07
Posts: 1,756
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: are you for real? [Re: KillrX]
#6967262 - 05/25/07 09:28 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I just would like to thank you for some of the most interesting reading I've done in weeks.
Weird.
I've been a huge fan of Shulgin for years. Time to do some experiments, methinks! A foaf or two has some 5-Meo-DMT saved up.
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Mr E Guest
partly animal



Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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I would strongly advise against the combination of MAOI (i.e. Harmine/harmaline)+5-MeO-DMT. Some strongly negative, even physically dangerous experiences have been reported, including in Shulgin's TIHKAL. Check under the entry for 5-MeO-DMT (as far as I recall right now.) Otherwise, safe tripping!
Best stick with the unmethoxylated version or the 4-OH. And I've done shrooms+passiflora a few times; it definitely seems to make things weirder!
-------------------- Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get. All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.
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CaptainLinger
A Fungus Amongus


Registered: 05/25/07
Posts: 1,756
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: are you for real? [Re: Mr E Guest]
#6970585 - 05/26/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I actually meant the Jochen Gartz bit...
anything off DMT is going to *require* a MAO inhibitor to be at least orally (usually safest).
At any rate, from the reading I remember last night...you'd have to dump *vast* quantities of tryptamines (which are better dumped into me!) into the substrate to see psychoactively substantial results.
Just figured I'd waste a few grams on an experiment, and run the results through a spectrometer.
Void, most naturally occurring DMT is there in very low levels. Doubt it's doing anything significant.
Mr E, you're definitely right insofar as...why bother attaching that fucking methoxy group? DMT is strong enough, the quality is not different *shrug*. I'd categorically avoid it...which is really why it should be in shrooms!
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SheerTerror
ST



Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 2,348
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: are you for real? [Re: moosehead]
#6972482 - 05/27/07 04:51 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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interesting read
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Mr E Guest
partly animal



Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Sorry, had a slight misunderstanding! I was rather tired, saw the words "MAOI" and "5-MeO-DMT" in what I now realise were two separate threads, and panicked a bit. I'd rather people avoided convulsions and possession by malevolent spirits. Each to their own, of course...
Actually, I think it'd be very interesting to see what the indole 4-hydroxylating enzymes would do in the presence of that 5-MeO group, but maybe only because I'm a bit of an organic molecules nerd and love to see when someone's made something heretofore unmade.
When I get hold of some 5-MeO I'll be trying it myself - but in the absence of analytical chemistry facilities I'll just be guessing at the results.
Quote:
Void_Dragon said:
I've found river grass I collect to make the most potent mushrooms with more visuals and a clearer smoother high. I assume this grass has DMT in it. Thats what I always assumed anyway.
Analyses have shown Phalaris arundinacea and P. tuberosa (P. aquatica) to contain a significant proportion of 5-MeO-DMT. So maybe you've already been making 4-OH-5-MeO-DMT without realising, V_D!
And I've just had another thought - melatonin is 5-methoxy-N-acetyltryptamine. This might be a worthwhile supplement to add to one's substrate. And it's better to be caught with a jar full of melatonin than a jar full of 5-MeO-DMT.
-------------------- Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get. All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.
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VampireSlayer
killing ghosts,zombies andvampires forlife


Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: are you for real? [Re: Mr E Guest]
#6980994 - 05/29/07 07:20 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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why would people want to inject 5-meo-dmt and get rid of psiolcybin and psiolocin? why not just extract it (5me0) from some plants or something?
-------------------- I Don't come to fight flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high and low places
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johnuk
Strangerlove
Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 226
Last seen: 14 years, 17 days
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p.s. tried to PM you but it's turned off [Re: VampireSlayer]
#6981572 - 05/29/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mr E, is there any chance you could PM some of your experience with passiflora combinations? I'm growing some myself and haven't seen much information around about it - e.g. seeds, bark, leaves, how much, when etc. Did you also go the tyramine diet route you're meant to follow with MAOIs? I guess it might not be necessary for just one dose but if you're planning ahead for a great trip it shouldn't be too hard looking at the help files they give regular users. You sound curiously similar to me in what you're interested in and the way you explain and describe things. All the best!
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merovinge
Stranger


Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 3
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: are you for real [Re: johnuk]
#6984262 - 05/29/07 09:24 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not that I would really know, but it seems to me the most cost effective route for trying this out would be to enrich your substrate with pilocarpus organensis. It's normally over 1% 5-MeO-DMT, it's just a total bitch to find. Something similar to the mimosa hostilis substrates, though I suppose they pose their own problems.
It seems from the Gartz tryptamine work that cubes should be keen on using up most of the precursors available to them, considering that he was using a 16 mM solution, if I remember right... not exactly large amounts, and you could probably even go lower, considering he was trying to increase the production of alkaloids, not just make a different one.
And as to why you would want to, pikashroom, I'm surprised you would even ask... producing a new, unexplored compound... who wouldn't want to?
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