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 Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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 Re: Spiritual? Yeah right.  [Re: Icelander]
#6756550 - 04/07/07 01:53 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I think there is a difference between an emotional attachment to a self-image or any image for that matter, and true love, which I conceive to be inherently unattached.
Nothing is unattached in this world IMO. That's all posturing. Who here is unattached? Sinbad? you? me? Veritas? If we decide what is real and true from personal experience rather than the scriptures, you might begin to understand my position. Just because we are selfish doesn't mean we can't enjoy loving and serving others. In fact that is the most selfish thing I do because it brings me great joy. Wanting everything for myself on the other hand isolates me and brings eventual suffering for me. I'm just acknowledging the fact that we can be very happy and emotionally healthy by really embracing loving ourselves. Then we will choose those things that bring more love into our experience. That's exactly how I think it works. It's about acting skillfully in enlightened self interest. It works for everyone.
What ever happened to that Castaneda principle of reducing self-importance Ice? 
The enlightened motive that functions to reduce self-importance is found in putting others happiness before our own, this is what Jesus, Buddha, Ghandi, etc all used to say, and do as this. Interestingly enough, this motivation results in an increase in happiness for all concerned. Mixing our 'selves' into the action is logically contrary to our motivation. If we have some problem, then we look for the causes of those problems, we may discover that they are always rooted in a self-centered attitude. The altruistic motivation is like the panacea that fosters loving kindness and compassion. Loving kindness meditation is always based upon this principle.
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Edited by Sinbad (04/08/07 03:17 AM)
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 BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Sinbad]
#6756758 - 04/07/07 03:22 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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The pleasure principle doesn't necessarily need reward. If one speaks of 'personal wellbeing' (absence of harm), then of course one's own idea, or better, one's knowledge of being well must be first, else we could not know what this state is like and we couldn't help others to achieve similar states, but with their own means and paths.
One cannot love one's neighbor if one doesn't love oneself.
Else it seems this love would be dependent or quite conditional and most ever harmful to either oneself or the 'loved' one.
Funny paradox here: If one 'loves' others without loving oneself, this love in the first place may be conditioned on 'to gaining love to oneself' in the progress, lol
At least, as far as I see 
But I am sure this has been said before.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Icelander]
#6756767 - 04/07/07 03:29 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I'm just and animal like the rest of the animal kingdom. I react to pleasure and pain like any other animal. Moving toward one and away from the other. I have death anxiety and I want to lessen that as much as possible so I can feel relaxed and enjoy my life as much as possible.
Any "Spirituality" I may pursue is based on the above. Anything I do for others is based on the above. IMO if we are honest we can see this. It's only elusive to some because it is so obvious.
This cuts through a lot of self indulgent crap IMO.
This post (and this thread) is no more or less self indulgent than anything else that has been posted on this forum. Philosophy in one form or another is self indulgent.
It's funny, you assume that you are only an animal, while others assume that they are something else alongside the 'animal instinct'
what's with all these assumptions? how can anyone know?
how can we be so sure that our way of thinking and experiencing is the 'truth'? With thought or feeling, we are wrong and right when we use either.
sometimes thought makes a right decisions, sometimes it doesn't work out.
Sometimes trusting your gut will steer you in a direction to a favourable outcome, sometimes it misses the mark.
When forms of thought and feeling are used, either separately or in combination, and we are still wrong a lot of the time, how in the hell can we be so sure of ourselves when it comes to abstractions such as "we are god" "we are consciousness" "we are only animals and nothing else"
words trying prove words. That's like plugging in variables into an equation where numbers need to be in order to get something concrete.
oh and don't try saying 'nothing is concrete' because I walk on concrete all fuckin day 
here's an idea
Thinking is self indulgence. Anyone saying that they, of all things, knows what is 'going on' when one hasn't seen a speck of what's out there, is the most ego-wanking as you can get. By not trying to define and work out 'what's really going on' we shall then reduce the self indulgent crap.
Anyone who tells you, 'this is the what reality is,' is full of shit.
"this is what you really are" shite
"higher level of being" elitist wanking
and please note that I know full well I do these things as well so I'm not to be removed
also please note that the cursing is all in jest to begin with, ie, no anger here 
--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: kaiowas]
#6757058 - 04/07/07 08:14 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
how can we be so sure that our way of thinking and experiencing is the 'truth'?
Because one read a book or doctrine, made an intellectual and emotional investment and to admit error or uncertainty would make one look foolish for having wasted time.
Poster 1: "I lost my ego!" *beams proudly*
Poster 2: "Nah, its still there."
Poster 1: "DID, TOO! I DID! I DID!" 
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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There are different levels of understanding chakras. Here, I'm referring to psychophysical 'locations' which correspond to feeling states in specific parts of the body, and I'm referring to psychospiritual 'states' such as an overwhelming 'feeling' at, say, the Heart Center, which at the same time 'motivates' a person to act in a purely altruistic, Compassionate manner.
Another example: the Muladhara at the base of the spine/anus corresponds to the emotion of fear, and its motivational aspect is self-preservation. If you ever have an experience in which you come quite close to sudden death, that chakra is energized and frequently one shits one's pants! These physiological- psychological responses is what I mean bt psychophysical. Sexual arousal has corresponding feelings at the genitals. The chakra doesn't "cause" the sexual arousal, but the consciousness of sexual feelings constellate in that specific region.
In the Buddhhist system that I learned, there are 5 chakras (lower two and upper two are combined). These correspond with the 5 spokes on a Dorje/Vajra symbol and the 5 elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Aether). There is this natural correspondence that I attempted to illustrate above, but there is a post-enlightenment 'valence' in thich the centers are transformed into vehicles of enlightened 'Body, Speech and Mind.' This happens after one has had an Experience that is symbolized by the seed syllable OM in which "the quality of light becomes identical with that of space and thereby merges into the psycho-energetic state of prana and into the relam of cosmic consciousness." (L. Govinda)
At any rate, Lama Govinda taught that the chakras are "the focal points in which cosmic and psychic energies crystallize into bodily qualities, and in which bodily qualities are dissolved or transmuted again into psychic forces. 'The seat of the soul is where the inner and outer world meet. When they penetrate each other, it is present in every point of penetration.' (Novalis.) We, therefore, can say that each psychic centre in which we become conscious of this spiritual penetration, becomes the seatof the soul, and that by activating or awakening the activities of the various centres, we spiritualize and transform our body." p. 135 Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism
In my dissertation, written in correspondence with Lama Govinda, I 'psychologized' the system to illustrate parallels with Western theorists of human motivation. Using the chakra model, it was possible to show how the schools of Freud, Adler, Jung, Frankl, Maslow, and Rogers not only corresponded with what ancient chakra psychology said about each center, but that these particular theorists could all be hung on the ascending and descending rungs (pre- and post-enlightenment chakras), and all be incorporated into a final synthesis - the multifaceted 'Diamond-Body' at the Heart Center.
Anyway, that's where I'm coming from with regard to chakras as centers of human motivation.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: kaiowas]
#6757431 - 04/07/07 11:15 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I'm just and animal like the rest of the animal kingdom. I react to pleasure and pain like any other animal. Moving toward one and away from the other. I have death anxiety and I want to lessen that as much as possible so I can feel relaxed and enjoy my life as much as possible.
Any "Spirituality" I may pursue is based on the above. Anything I do for others is based on the above. IMO if we are honest we can see this. It's only elusive to some because it is so obvious.
This cuts through a lot of self indulgent crap IMO.
This post (and this thread) is no more or less self indulgent than anything else that has been posted on this forum. Philosophy in one form or another is self indulgent.
It's funny, you assume that you are only an animal, while others assume that they are something else alongside the 'animal instinct'
what's with all these assumptions? how can anyone know?
how can we be so sure that our way of thinking and experiencing is the 'truth'? With thought or feeling, we are wrong and right when we use either.
sometimes thought makes a right decisions, sometimes it doesn't work out.
Sometimes trusting your gut will steer you in a direction to a favourable outcome, sometimes it misses the mark.
When forms of thought and feeling are used, either separately or in combination, and we are still wrong a lot of the time, how in the hell can we be so sure of ourselves when it comes to abstractions such as "we are god" "we are consciousness" "we are only animals and nothing else"
words trying prove words. That's like plugging in variables into an equation where numbers need to be in order to get something concrete.
oh and don't try saying 'nothing is concrete' because I walk on concrete all fuckin day
here's an idea
Thinking is self indulgence. Anyone saying that they, of all things, knows what is 'going on' when one hasn't seen a speck of what's out there, is the most ego-wanking as you can get. By not trying to define and work out 'what's really going on' we shall then reduce the self indulgent crap.
Anyone who tells you, 'this is the what reality is,' is full of shit.
"this is what you really are" shite
"higher level of being" elitist wanking
and please note that I know full well I do these things as well so I'm not to be removed
also please note that the cursing is all in jest to begin with, ie, no anger here
Basically I agree with your post. Of course I am posting my personal views and really have no certainty whatsoever that I am correct about anything. I'm just posting what works for me and encouraging others to take a look. I find no problem in this admission. I debate here for edification and entertainment. I'm not out to start a religion. Although it may seem like it at times.
Good post.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Icelander]
#6757457 - 04/07/07 11:21 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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Ok, here's my take on it: Seeing our spiritual nature as simply a part of our animal nature is one way of seeing it. Another equally valid view would say that our animal nature is a part of our spiritual nature. We have many natures, and yet they are all one. I would say that we are not merely animals, nor are other animals merely animals. We are all manifestations of the Absolute.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Silversoul]
#6757495 - 04/07/07 11:32 AM (17 years, 14 days ago) |
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I get what you're saying and I basically agree.
I don't think of being an animal as a merely thing. How could being alive be mundane. Look at what it takes to make an animal work? Could that be merely? No way. I think the problem for many is that if you admit you are an animal then you admit that you die, die as the you who is attached to your personality structure (ego). There may be no heaven or reincarnation waiting any more then there is for an ant or a fish.
Yet we are alive. We feel, emote, yearn and grope; stand amazed and in love, feel pain and fear. All of it to whatever degree that we are able. That is the glory and the reason for being and endeavoring to enjoy this experience of being a piece of walking meat. It's merely awesome and amazing.
'The Gates of Paradise
I am nothing like my sister
I am nothing like my mom
You can't see me in my father
Wonder where did I come from?
And the laws of men are not the laws of heaven
And angel's breath is like the desert wind
And terrorists are acting out of love, sweet love
To bring us home again
It's a sin to seek perfection
It's a sin to help the poor
It's a sin to hold convictions
For none of them are true
And the laws of men are not the laws of heaven
And angel's breath is like the desert wind
And terrorists are acting out of love, sweet love
To bring us home again
Beware of good intentions
And the passion in their eyes
For none of them can open
The gates of paradise' Lyrics by David Byrne
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (04/07/07 11:43 AM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Icelander]
#6759612 - 04/07/07 11:15 PM (17 years, 13 days ago) |
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As a enthusiast of shamanism I feel that any spiritual qualities that we posses is from our animal nature. The root basis of most shamanic traditions is returning to our animal nature. The aborigines of Australia believed (back when they were still a free people) that they should not work any material harder than wood lest technology sever their connection with God and they drift too far from their animal nature. It is obvious that animals exist in the moment, and that they do not indulge like humans do because they lack the brain mass for objective thought. They do not understand spiritual states of awareness because that is essentially their natural state. It is also our natural born state, but our perception of an objective view interferes with this. Humans developed the brain capacity for language and the perception of objective thought which diluted our instinctual, animal side. The whole field of spiritual awareness grew out of this separation.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (04/08/07 07:34 AM)
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
It is obvious that animals exist in the moment, and that they do not indulge.
I dunno, I've seen animals overindulge to the point of illness and I've seen them express sentiments that are clearly unrelated to the present circumstances, which most likely indicates that their minds were elsewhere.
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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Quote:
Humans developed the brain capacity for language and for objective thought which diluted our instinctual, animal side. The whole field of spiritual awareness grew out of this separation.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: dblaney]
#6760373 - 04/08/07 07:38 AM (17 years, 13 days ago) |
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In my experience only animals that have been in long contact with humans develop human type tendencies...like pets, but even in these animals they seldom worry beyond the immediate satisfaction of their needs. It also should be noted that animals DO have personalities even though they posses little or no ego. Personality should not be confused with indulgence. After all they are not machines.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
In my experience only animals that have been in long contact with humans develop human type tendencies...like pets, but even in these animals they seldom worry beyond the immediate satisfaction of their needs. It also should be noted that animals DO have personalities even though they posses little or no ego. Personality should not be confused with indulgence. After all they are not machines.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
In my experience only animals that have been in long contact with humans develop human type tendencies...like pets, but even in these animals they seldom worry beyond the immediate satisfaction of their needs
This is quite possible, my experience is limited to more domesticated animals.
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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Icelander]
#6761191 - 04/08/07 01:02 PM (17 years, 12 days ago) |
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I believe you are only accounting for the primitive areas in the brain that may be stimulated, however, there is much more cubic space inside of the highly evolved (and still evolving) frontal lobe to occupy.
Theres a lot of things to do and lot of things to know. Instant satisfaction does not equate to inner knowledge. They are both integral for a complete experience.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: psyka]
#6761735 - 04/08/07 03:41 PM (17 years, 12 days ago) |
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Too bad I don't know what you're refering to.
All of the brain is part of us as animals and is involved in our human/animal nature. And I don't remember saying anything about instant satisfaction. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: psyka]
#6761791 - 04/08/07 03:55 PM (17 years, 12 days ago) |
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All of that extra brain mass is what separates us from our spiritual nature.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: psyka]
#6761794 - 04/08/07 03:56 PM (17 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
They are both integral for a complete experience.
All experience is always complete.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
All of that extra brain mass is what separates us from our spiritual nature.
To be exact, IMO, it's how we use that extra brain mass that separates us. That extra may be a great extra in the spiritual experience realm.;)
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Spiritual? Yeah right. [Re: Icelander]
#6762240 - 04/08/07 06:03 PM (17 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I'm just and animal like the rest of the animal kingdom. I react to pleasure and pain like any other animal. Moving toward one and away from the other. I have death anxiety and I want to lessen that as much as possible so I can feel relaxed and enjoy my life as much as possible.
Any "Spirituality" I may persue is based on the above. Anything I do for others is based on the above. IMO if we are honest we can see this. It's only elusive to some because it is so obvious.
This cuts through a lot of self indulgent crap IMO.
hmm reminds me of when I was talking about people as pieces of meat.
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