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Smackshadow It's Time for Wi Registered: 09/27/05 Posts: 575 Last seen: 2 months, 17 days |
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Then I don't get why you don't change jobs, especially now that the economy is cooking.
The economy is not “cooking” the numbers we see are so warped they are almost straight out lies. Look at real-estate values, Capital Improvements, the trade deficit, our currency compared to Canada’s. As such it is much harder to find gainful employment then some would have you believe. Nope. The investment of money they risked setting up the business with no guarantee of a return is what profits them. The employees took no risk and they're benefiting accordingly. Untrue. Business is an innately collaborative effort. It takes many people to start and operate one. The group of people who risk the most are employees. They get hired to a business with no guarantee of payment, work often for years (in this case 13) utilizing their skills with no guarantee of security, and in the end are exploited by those who fail to recognize the value of a stable and knowledgeable work force. Most importantly to a businesses success is costumer satisfaction. What is ranked highest on consumers list of good service? A business’ employees, the people who serve costumers, have face to face contact with them, and facilitate the transfer of money from the consumer to the business. If they're making more money for the owners, then it's the right attitude the way I see it. I feel for you, but you make it seem like your employer owes you something. This is a short-sided way of seeing it. Business is a tool created for two reasons, one as you have stated before is to make money for owners, and the second is to efficiently exchange goods or services for money. A tool is an item that when used benefits all involved. A tool that betters only the owner at the expense of others is a weapon. When we exploit those who work our businesses for only the betterment of ourselves we have misused our tools. To me this is unacceptable. All one needs to do to see this point is read the Jungle, visit rural China, or view the growing economic divide in our own country and the instability it causes, to understand this point. Business survives by being able to sell goods to the populace, the workers; workers survive by using the fruits of the business. When either exploits the other we face ruin. -------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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Annapurna1 liberal pussy Registered: 05/21/02 Posts: 5,646 Loc: innsmouth..MA |
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Quote: well you are being quite ignorant..because it says "corporate libertarians" and not simply "libertarians"...that doesnt answer the question of why you ppl are so obtuse..but you have proven this is so nonetheless... Edited by Annapurna1 (04/07/07 01:43 AM)
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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My company profited 6.5 BILLION dollars yet they cut pension benefits from those who are already retired by 20% as well as forced increased medical plan costs onto them.
Well, how much they made is irrelevant, but cutting pensions for people already retired is fucked up. How did the company get away with this? Didn't the retirees have a contract or some kind of guarantee or were they counting on the word of the company? I mean, if you base your retirement on the word of the company without some sort of fiduciary guarantees, you're hanging your retirement on the company not going broke one day. That's risky. FireworksGod said it best. It is a dynamic environment, one which people like Diploid will never understand as long as he believes that stocking shelves and making change are mindless tasks. Well educate me. I have an open mind on every issue including this one. What skills are required to take a can of soup from a crate on the floor and put it on the shelf? As for making change, I did that when I was a starving student, and as I recall, it was mindless. But still, show me how skill is required and I'll recant. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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The economy is not "cooking"
Unemployment in the U.S. for the month of March was at 4.4% That means that more than 95 of every 100 people has a job. You can rationalize all you like and characterize the number as warped all you like. There will still be more than 95 of every 100 working. At 4.4% unemployment, anyone who isn't lazy or incompetent can find work. If you don't like your job, find another. I will never understand how people prefer to stay in a crappy job for years and years, complaining about it at every opportunity, and wasting time posting on the Shroomery instead of getting their resume posted on monster.com. Smackshadow says: In summary, you're saying that when your employer does EXACTLY what you and he agreed to when you started working and later refuses to do more when you demand more, they're evil. If they break their agreement, then I'm absolutely on your side, as appears to be the case in GabbaDj's pension, but you're just demanding more than agreed because you think you're arbitrarily entitled to more. Well, alright then. If your understanding of the concept of an agreement is that irrationally twisted, I have no rebuttal for ya. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Redstorm Prince of Bugs Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 5 months, 9 days |
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Yep, you don't have a reason.
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Annapurna1 liberal pussy Registered: 05/21/02 Posts: 5,646 Loc: innsmouth..MA |
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Quote: apart from ignoring qualifiers..the libertarians have also shown that they dont mean to work against oppression so much as leave it to the private sector .. Quote: according to libertarians..business should be solely a means of creating economic inequality (which must inevitably become political inequality) and should be free to do so unencumbered by a govt that would represent its victims...it also means that the employers should be free to revoke an employees' civil liberties as a condition of employment..and this is very much the case .. http://www.alternet.org/workplac based on that..i think its indisputable that the only liberty the libertarians believe in is liberty for corporate autocrats to impose tyranny..which firmly places "libertarianism" in the vocabulary of orwellian doublespeak.... however..in fairness to those libertarians that do recognize the role of govt in preventing abuses of corporate power..i have qualified the other libertarians as "corporate libertarians"... EDIT ..nor is economic fascism an immutable fact of human nature either..since equitable economies have been implemented successfully in the US before reagan..and are still in place in many other countries... -------------------- "anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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Annapurna1, you're off topic.
We're not discussing libertarianism. We're discussing employer-employee relations. You're welcome to start a separate thread on libertarianism. Stop cluttering up this thread. Stay on topic. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Smackshadow It's Time for Wi Registered: 09/27/05 Posts: 575 Last seen: 2 months, 17 days |
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That means that more than 95 of every 100 people has a job. You can rationalize all you like and characterize the number as warped all you like. There will still be more than 95 of every 100 working.
Again, untrue. The unemployment rate, does not take into account disenfranchised workers of which their are many, and several other biasing conditions that make it seem lower than it really is. If we look at growth trends in the last 6 years we find that many of the jobs "created" are in fact temp. jobs, or pay less then the national poverty level. When you Said "I will never understand how people prefer to stay in a crappy job for years and years, complaining about it at every opportunity, and wasting time posting on the Shroomery instead of getting their resume posted on monster.com." Perhaps the reason is that the newly "created" jobs pay worse then the jobs held already. Of course as we can see in this blog it is not just the newly created jobs that are trying to pay less, but old jobs are starting to pay long standing employees less. As I recall people generally get pay raises after 13 years of work, not pay cuts. -------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Quote: Yes, you are out of touch, in that you are proposing an incredibly simplified view on the operations of a retail establishment like a grocery store. The store I work in is both a grocery store and a general merchandise store. Trucks are unloaded - have you ever unloaded a truck? I haven't but I've seen it done and appreciate how physically involving it is. Tonight will have 3500 pieces hit the store. That's a big night but I've stocked on 5000 piece nights. What about the associates who work in the deli or in the bakery? Could you imagine what goes into being in compliance with federal inspectors? Just a few marks and you could be losing a lot of business when you are not permitted to prepare and serve. Simply stocking shelves is more complex than one would preconceive. For stocking my department, one must commit to memory the modular layout for 560 ft of side counter. How many thousand unique items do you think I have in my department? I'll have to get back to you on that one, although, if I took some time, I could probably give you a rough estimate, but I'd have to mentally go through my side counter and start tallying. I'm actually tempted to do so, like an adult Memory game, the child version in-stock in my department. I could give you a much rougher estimate much quicker... Around two thousand unique items... Of course, as a stocker, you're likely to spend time in more than one department.... Of course, the expectation on overnights is set at 60 cases an hour. That's a case a minute, and that includes the time it takes to stage the freight, which means to load it off of pallets and distribute it throughout the department for it to be stocked, which means that, when you are actually stocking the freight, the expectation is more than one case a minute. If you would like me to I could swipe some job descriptions from work and submit them to you in this thread. I think you'd be surprised as to how many different types of jobs there are in a retail establishment and what they involve. Quote: Well, firstly, the person that the customer will remember is the cashier. That's where most of the face-to-face customer service occurs. There is a lot of expectations of responsibility involved in that. Secondly, if you have a customer that has found everything they wish to purchase and has their money ready to go and you are making them wait, then you have a huge customer service opportunity. The check-out experience is one of the primary aspects of shopping in the store that will stick out in the customers' minds. Cashiers are expected to perform as well, and the rate of items they scan per hour is focused upon. At the same time, cashiers are handling large amounts of money. The computer might display the amount of change they are to hand back, yet it does not assure that they are going to accurately give change. They don't have a lot of time to stand there and count - quality still cannot be sacrificed even as one is expected to perform quickly. Also, one has to hold into account the integrity of one's cashiers. We recently had the police escort out a cashier who pocketed eight-thousand dollars that we know of. She's going to spend a few years in prison, incidentally. Its intriguing that you assert that these positions would not require more than a sixth-grade literacy. In what manner is literacy beyond the sixth-grade level relevant to the skills required by the positions? One could be a proficient reader and yet be incapable of being an effective retail worker. You are judging the ease of a position based upon a measure that has absolutely no relevance to the position. Quote: We recently raised our base pay-rate. We have subsequently been more capable of filling those positions. I clearly agree with you on this. I think the fact that these workers are unionized is what prevents them from receiving a pay-raise. If they weren't unionized, the whole process would not be obstructed. If conditions and pay sucked, they would have a terrible turn-over rate and would have difficulity filing positions, in which case, those who do stick around and put in the effort will receive a pay increase when they raise the base pay-rate in order to hire new workers. Unions in an industry such as retail are pointless. Quote: I'm not sure what you mean by "HR" and "churn" but it sounds like you are describing me. Its more cost-effective for them to pay me a few hours of overtime than it is to hire a part-time associate, and the extra pay helps my budget out a lot. Quote: Pretty much. The union is obviously impeding their ability to stay competitive and to effectively manage their facility. A successful company benefits the worker. I'd rather feel like I should be getting paid a buck more to do my job than to get laid off. -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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GabbaDj BTH Registered: 04/08/01 Posts: 19,682 Loc: By The Lake |
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Quote: Most EVERY American plans their retirement through some sort of non guaranteed unsecured financial plan. Airline employees, GM employees, even military personnel have all had their retirement benefits cut or taken away completely. Even those who are already retired. In fact aside from saving your own money and putting it into a secured account then nothing is guaranteed, Even FDIC accounts will only secure 200K of your retirement funds. At the age of retirement it takes an average 30% loss of funds to roll over your retirement accounts into secure accounts. Its just the way the system works and yah, if the company goes under, so do you. Hell Social Security isnt even guaranteed. Quote: Im not saying that most jobs are highly skilled, they are just very hard. Its not just stacking apples or putting cans on a shelf, its putting tens of thousands of items into constant rotation effectively and efficiently every day, which takes skill no matter what you believe. Plus theirs labeling requirements and knowing how a stores point of sales system works and compliance with state and federal regulations and blah blah blah.. Think about it for a minute. Do you seriously want the people who handle the food that you eat to have the worst health care of any profession? Do you want your food prepared by underpaid, overworked non professionals who have no concern for public safety? Thats the way things are going to be for everyone if people like me dont take a stand against corporate greed.
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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Again, untrue. The unemployment rate, does not take into account disenfranchised workers of which their are many, and several other biasing conditions that make it seem lower than it really is.
Even if the unemployment rate were twice what it is, there would still be better jobs than whatever you're in. This has always been so. As long as SOME better jobs exist, and they always exist, then the thing that blocks people's climb to a better job is lack of motivation. I don't work but have many friends who do. I see this first hand. The ones that put in the effort to go to school and crank out resumes consistently climb. The ones who'd rather be stoned all the time (end even go to work stoned because they "work better" that way! WTF?) all complain that their job sucks, they can't find anything better (but they never try), and they all blame evil corporation for their lot in life. But they never take responsibility for themselves, it's always someone else who causes their misery. I'd buy their song of woe if I wasn't personally watching the motivated ones steadily improving their lives and the lazy ones stagnating in crap of their own making. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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Trucks are unloaded - have you ever unloaded a truck?
Yes, I have. All you're saying is that it's hard work. No one is denying it's hard work. But it's mindless work. What about the associates who work in the deli or in the bakery? Could you imagine what goes into being in compliance with federal inspectors? Once again, mindless work. It's the manager of the deli that has to be smart enough and skilled enough to deal with the regulatory aspects of the business, but any high school drop out who goes to work stoned can slice ham to order at a deli, and case in point, I have a friend who does exactly that. Simply stocking shelves is more complex than one would preconceive. For stocking my department, one must commit to memory the modular layout for 560 ft of side counter. Give me a break. You don't have to memorize where thousands of items go when the the shelves are labeled and usually already have some of whatever you're restocking. I worked all these jobs when I was in school and I know how much skill they don't take. But yes, you're right that they are hard work. Of course, the expectation on overnights is set at 60 cases an hour. Again, you're bypassing the central issue. No one is saying these jobs are easy. They're not easy. I know that. But they require no skill. Anyone with muscle can do the job. No skills or education beyond 6th grade is required. That means that there are a lot more people qualified for the job than not, and the law of supply and demand sets the pay. If you don't like that, give yourself something that fewer people in the general population have (like a skill or an education) and you will be paid more by the same law of supply and demand. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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Most EVERY American plans their retirement through some sort of non guaranteed unsecured financial plan. Airline employees, GM employees, even military personnel have all had their retirement benefits cut or taken away completely. Even those who are already retired.
Well, I've already agreed with you that changing the rules after the game starts isn't fair. I'm on your side as far as that goes. At the age of retirement it takes an average 30% loss of funds to roll over your retirement accounts into secure accounts. Its just the way the system works and yah, if the company goes under, so do you. What? Where did you get 30% from? If you're talking about paying the deferred taxes on a 401K, then that's balony because you GAINED from the deferment of the taxes which you have to pay eventually anyway. Im not saying that most jobs are highly skilled, they are just very hard. Exactly. They're hard work any moron could do. That's why we don't pay horses. If you don't like that, gain a rare skill and go do work that fewer people can do. You'll be paid accordingly. Why is supply and demand so hard to understand? its putting tens of thousands of items into constant rotation effectively and efficiently every day, which takes skill no matter what you believe. Plus theirs labeling requirements and knowing how a stores point of sales system works and compliance with state and federal regulations All concerns for the manager, not the person stocking shelves. The manager gets paid more for all the reasons you list. The person following the manager's instructions gets paid less, for the exact same reasons. Do you seriously want the people who handle the food that you eat to have the worst health care of any profession? Why would I care? The food is packaged in sealed containers. And that packaging is done under the auspices of skilled and educated MANAGERS at a packing plant who are paid well because they have the skills and education to enforce compliance with food processing regulations. And we're back where we started. You want to do the stoopid job but get paid the smart pay. It doesn't work that way and the sooner you stop bitching about it and gain a valuable skill instead of a common one, you'll start getting better pay. It's simple. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Quote: Well, when that freight starts rolling there are thirty different departments that it could belong to. One has to quickly identify that information and sort it as the freight continues to roll. Its mindless work compared to the work of a buyer in the home office, purchasing millions of dollars of merchandise, but... well, I guess there isn't a lot of jobs you could compare it to where it would be more of a mindful job. My point, however, is that it is hard work. There are a lot of unskilled workers out there who, quite honestly, do not want to do hard work. You first established that it was simple work, and I went further to explain some aspects of some of the positions to demonstrate how they are a little more complex than first impression, and also that the expectations of performance make it hard work. You agree with me that it is hard work, and I agree with you that it is a rather mindless job when you compare it to a lot of other jobs. My point is that it isn't as easy as you would think to find new, good help because of this. Quote: Perhaps not right away, but the fact that the shelves are labeled and that not everything you are stocking was out-of-stock doesn't mean that you don't have to memorize it - if you want to meet productivity expectations. You have to know where everything is when you look at the shipping label instantly so that you can keep moving. Its easier to memorize when you have a reference, of course, but that's how we remember things. Of course, I memorize where everything is because I'm usually the one that set that section of modular, but its simply a different reference. Quote: I'm also right that, because it is hard work, it is more difficult to fill the positions unless the pay is right. I also agree with you on this, that if the company was having trouble staying staffed, then they would start to look at ways to secure retention, perhaps lastly deciding to raise the base pay-rate. Quote: This is where we disagree. Sure, anyone with muscle could do the job, yet it doesn't mean that there is a line of people waiting to do the job. Quote: If you are referring specifically to me, I personally focused on performing well and playing an expanded role in whatever was going on, and it has benefited me greatly. I continue to push myself in such a manner and I think it is paying off. -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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unbeliever Yo Daddy! Registered: 05/22/04 Posts: 5,158 Loc: Gallifrey Last seen: 15 years, 21 days |
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I think the deciding factor needs to be reached after carefully weighing the value of living, breathing human beings against a legal construct (corporation). Do you (general you) feel that corporations should have more rights, at the expense of the people? Personally, I find that sentiment repugnant.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 2 months |
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Quote: What the hell are you talking about? Being employed is a mutal decision. The person agrees to the terms of employment and the employer decides that they wish to employ the person. A person does not have to become employed and subsequently agree to be subject to the corporation's decisions. Its the choice of the person. I'm not sure what "rights" corporations have at the expense of "the people". Please try to elaborate on this in a way that makes sense. -------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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I think the deciding factor needs to be reached after carefully weighing the value of living, breathing human beings against a legal construct (corporation).
On this point I agree completely. But these issues are addressed by minimum wage laws. And again, if you think the minimum wage is too low, I'll agree with you. But you can't blame the evil corporations for paying the minimum the law allows. That's just good business. Instead of yelling at the corporations for following their charter (to make money for the owners) yell at our politicians who set the minimum wage way too low. If it were up to me, it would be much higher than it is. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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This is where we disagree. Sure, anyone with muscle could do the job, yet it doesn't mean that there is a line of people waiting to do the job.
That's because unemployment is low. This means that people with motivation are pushing to improve their skill set and education and creeping up the ladder. The lazy people who want things given to them end up in the low paying, hard working jobs, and complaining about it every step of the way. If you are referring specifically to me Nope, I do my best to keep debate non-personal. "You" means people complaining about their jobs without doing anything to improve their marketability. I mess up sometimes, sure, I'm only human, but not in this thread so far. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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GabbaDj BTH Registered: 04/08/01 Posts: 19,682 Loc: By The Lake |
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Quote: Aaaaah. Now we find the source of all your ignorance. Quote: School isnt for everyone and the greatest SKILL any employee could ever have is commitment. Those who go to work stoned, do a shitty job and hate their work dont have the SKILL to survive in any work environment executive, administrative or labor. These people never last long and it does take an average 7 years of hard work and day to day commitment to excellence before any person begins to make a livable wage in my industry. It takes a brite and motivated person to survive in a competitive labor industry and the skills required to do that can never be taught in any book. The overwhelming majority of people in America fall into this category of laborers who just dont need to go to school because these jobs pay as well or better than most executive jobs. My job used to top out at 21.50 an hour with triple time on all holidays and overtime every sunday, 5 weeks paid vacation after 7 years free medical, dental and vision plus a slew of retirement benefits. Now the top pay is $16.32hr, no more Sunday pay, half the holidays have been taken away and benefits are paid for by the employee plus the retirement options have been gutted. If big business is allowed to destroy all the working middle class options to a livable life then were going to see the destruction of America its self.
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Diploid Cuban Registered: 01/09/03 Posts: 19,274 Loc: Rabbit Hole |
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Aaaaah. Now we find the source of all your ignorance.
Ah yes, the old standby: name calling. Ad hominems are the recourse of those who cannot refute an argument. They get frustrated at their inability to come up with a solid rebuttal and so, in frustration, they attack the person they're debating instead of the points they think are wrong but can't demonstrate to actually be wrong. -------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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