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 nugsarenice
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 Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian 
#674039 - 06/11/02 10:48 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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A new court case has opened up to damages, land claims, political independency regarding the native hawaiians, the u.s. defense counsel seems as if they are bringing alot of good evidence to suggest that native hawaiians are not actually native hawaiians, and they have no right to the above claims. I really don't belive an arguement of this sort would win any jury, however, I think this is a differnet type of bearucratic court show.
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 Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: nugsarenice]
#674107 - 06/12/02 01:33 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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who cares?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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superpimp
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: nugsarenice]
#674274 - 06/12/02 05:16 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just give them a casino. That'll shut them up, it always does.
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nugsarenice
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#674885 - 06/12/02 12:27 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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it is definitely an issue for me to care about, because I believe a seperate government entity run by hawaiians would be better, if it were ever be empowered by the u.s. government, then the u.s. government would falter. I would follow the hawaiians to politics before white people, call me a hyprocrite for being white, etc. call me a hitey, whatever...
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: nugsarenice]
#674910 - 06/12/02 12:43 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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**** call me a hyprocrite for being white, etc. call me a hitey, whatever..****
i wouldn't call you them names....but nut job does come to mind 
last i remember states can't suceed(sp) from the union.....move em to canada and you may have something
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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nugsarenice
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#674942 - 06/12/02 12:59 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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it's different from a succession, however they do bring up the illegality of the u.s. poltical presense here, they have been lobbying the u.n. I think they generally only want the freedom granted to the n.m indians.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: nugsarenice]
#675008 - 06/12/02 01:33 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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the U.N. doesn't have jurisdiction over them issues...DUH!!!
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#675014 - 06/12/02 01:35 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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If nugs and all the other socialists had their way, the U.N. would have jurisdiction over the globe.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: ]
#675136 - 06/12/02 02:26 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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What's funny is that he falls for every conspiracy theory out there but wants to run to the U.N. for help..Isn't the U.N. out to take over the world? Minus the tin foil hat wearers ofcourse
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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hongomon
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: nugsarenice]
#675690 - 06/12/02 07:26 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I grew up in Hawaii and I think that the current U.S. government is losing an opportunity to atone for some real evils committed by former U.S. governments against native peoples.
The Hawaiian movement has faced all kinds of resistance from the government, state and federal, for years now. It's really disgraceful, in my opinion.
hongomon
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#676258 - 06/13/02 07:57 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Life's a bitch. We've all had our difficulties, they need to get over it. The great thing about this country is that you can leave whenever you want.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#676272 - 06/13/02 08:12 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Innvertigo wrote:
"The great thing about this country is that you can leave whenever you want. "
Unless you're imprisoned as any "enemy combatant" with no charges being filed against you, no evidence submitted for an indictment, and no legal representation allowed - merely the accusations of the federal police state.
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hongomon
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#677156 - 06/13/02 05:15 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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"The great thing about this country is that you can leave whenever you want."
That saying was stupid long before it was a cliche. It's especially stupid as a cliche, and it's an ESPECIALLY stupid cliche when it's used regarding indigenous people, in other words THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS. The United States fails the human rights issue hands down when it comes to native peoples. If that's not embarrassing enough for us, we have certain lunkheads spouting idiocies like, "Life's a bitch. We've all had our difficulties. Get over it."
The Hawaiian sovereignty movement took an ancient culture away from the edge of extinction and is putting it back into the Hawaiian people. In the late 70s there were like a dozen people left who spoke fluent Hawaiian, and now you can see television shows on public television all in Hawaiian. The renaissance has been very good for the communities here and hopefully it will continue to grow.
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Great_Cthulhu
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 Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#677459 - 06/13/02 09:56 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tell me...could you name a few countries that have not at at the very least one time in their history conquered or occupied a native people's land to expand their boarders? And how the United States is different from everyone else in this aspect? Nothing wrong with Native Americans keeping their culture...but succeeding from the U.S. as in the case of Hawaiians or any other group/tribe is not an option. They/we are apart of the U.S. now.
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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
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hongomon
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
#678034 - 06/14/02 08:12 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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What do your questions have to do with anything?
Within the Hawaiian movement, there are plenty of more plausable positions, and actual secession is only on the agenda of a particular extreme. The majority of Hawaiian activists, and sympathizers like nugsarenice and myself, are pushing for things like land, official recognition (you might be surprised how important, and how difficult to attain, official federal recognition is), and other forms of autonomy.
As things stand, there is an Office of Hawaiian Affairs, but the government has made it clear that anyone, even a freckly Irishman, can preside over the OHA, and that anyone, even a bearded Hindu, can vote in it. Not exactly autonomous.
A couple of links, if you're interested
http://starbulletin.com/2001/01/31/news/story1.html
http://www.house.gov/mink/native_hawaiians.html
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: ]
#678059 - 06/14/02 08:24 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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and this has what to do with hawaii?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#678069 - 06/14/02 08:31 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****That saying was stupid long before it was a cliche. ****
however it is still a fact and those that hate this country is free to go to a better one. Cliche' or not the message is still quite clear.
***It's especially stupid as a cliche, and it's an ESPECIALLY stupid cliche when it's used regarding indigenous people, in other words THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS. ****
like i said lifes a bitch...are we the only people on Earth that conquered THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS? Instead of saying how stupid things are why don't you examine what is actually being said, and the meaning behind it.
***The United States fails the human rights issue hands down when it comes to native peoples****
My God are you ignorant....We pale in comparison to most European and African countries
****If that's not embarrassing enough for us, we have certain lunkheads spouting idiocies like, "Life's a bitch. We've all had our difficulties. Get over it."****
See above
*****The Hawaiian sovereignty movement took an ancient culture away from the edge of extinction and is putting it back into the Hawaiian people****
good for them. i like to see people honor their culture, however this is still the United States
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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superpimp
The boss of thefamily
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#678151 - 06/14/02 09:20 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, no one likes my casino idea? We've been buying off every other tribe in the US with free gambling licenses, why not the Hawiians too? It's a license to print money, so they have nothing to complain about any more. I wish I was an indian so I could get a free casino.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: superpimp]
#678212 - 06/14/02 10:07 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like the casino idea.....bribes are the american way....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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hongomon
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#678275 - 06/14/02 10:37 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let me make this really plain for you, invertigo. Human rights is not a game of comparison. America is the greatest example of democracy--democracy is a political philosophy BASED on INALIENABLE HUMAN RIGHTS.
If we insist on being content as the lesser of all the world's evils, then we will be pretty damn evil, because you're right, there is some pretty fucked up shit in the world.
Personally, I'm not willing to play the comparison game to defend the fucked up things WE do, that OUR government does or has done. I love my country, and I feel justified in holding it to a higher standard BECAUSE it is based on higher standards.
Democracy is only as good as we make it, my friend.
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nugsarenice
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#678279 - 06/14/02 10:38 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I remember that protest actually happened, the airport was shutdown, I wonder when the next airport protest is happening.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#678719 - 06/14/02 02:44 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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****Human rights is not a game of comparison.*****
Ofcourse it isn't....ecspecially when it's the United states who is being slammed.
***democracy is a political philosophy BASED on INALIENABLE HUMAN RIGHTS.****
Thanks for the lesson brain-child, Tell me how they are being hurt then? one example will do....and what right do they have to suceed(sp)?
****If we insist on being content as the lesser of all the world's evils, then we will be pretty damn evil,*****
Cry me a fucking river, It's pretty funny that they're countries such as Germany out there who killed 6 million jews and countries who bomb other innocent people in shopping malls and people like you seem to be on a crusade as to how evil we are...give me a fucking break.
****because you're right, there is some pretty fucked up shit in the world.****
you're right there is and no country is perfect but the united states has one of the top human rights policies in the world. To deny that is just plain ignorant
****Personally, I'm not willing to play the comparison game to defend the fucked up things WE do****
ofcourse you won't because it would make all you rants useless....but i can understand why.
****I love my country, and I feel justified in holding it to a higher standard BECAUSE it is based on higher standards.****
we agree on something outstanding.....however with that said don't bury your head in the sand when complaining about how bad we are. It's usually done by 16 year olds who think they have the world figured out.
***Democracy is only as good as we make it, my friend.****
First off we're not a democracy, rather a representative republic. Democracy is mob rule (look into it).
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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hongomon
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#678739 - 06/14/02 02:55 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Democracy doesn't exist in the United States? Is that REALLY what you're claiming?
And...HEY!!...Now that you're awake, go back and read my post. I said that the move to secede is NOT the aim of most Hawaiian activists.
Actually, you know what? Never mind. Keep up whatever it is you do.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#678770 - 06/14/02 03:07 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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***Democracy doesn't exist in the United States? Is that REALLY what you're claiming?***
yes...
****And...HEY!!...Now that you're awake, go back and read my post. I said that the move to secede is NOT the aim of most Hawaiian activists****
Then you go back and look at the post that nugsarenice posted about them wanting to suceed....
you havn't made one valid pint yet, keep it up you're living up to my expectations 
***Actually, you know what? Never mind. Keep up whatever it is you do.***
actually my job is making people like you realize just how ignorant you can be....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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nugsarenice
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: Innvertigo]
#679454 - 06/14/02 09:54 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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my post is'nt the most accurate with facts. hongomon probraly know more about native Hawaiian then I do. My post was about political isolation, I think its' more adaptable like the New Zealand's natives' rights. Not more like a succession.
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hongomon
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: nugsarenice]
#679842 - 06/15/02 07:33 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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I went back and reread your posts, nugs, and I don't find anything wrong with what you said.
In fact, you said it's different from secession and you're right. They are pushing for federal recognition of a native Hawaiian governing body, not of the state of Hawaii, but of the nation of Hawaiian people. Like I mentioned, the Office of Hawaiian affairs is as close as the federal government has allowed, and it's an insult to the Hawaiians as it stands.
Your original post is about the latest tactic used by the federal government to keep them down. It's common knowledge that people of pure Hawaiian lineage are nearly extinct. By now they might be, or there may be a couple of really old pure Hawaiians. Then you have the remaining Hawaiians that are of some mixture, some mostly Hawaiian lineage and some with a trace and all kinds in between.
Back in the 1920s there was a congressional act of contrition (an apology of sorts) that "promised" a lot of Hawaiian land back to Hawaiians. But at that point, no one thought to complain that it was only for pure Hawaiians, because there were so many, and basically every family line had land promised, because every family line had a pure Hawaiian family member--a dad, a grandmother, someone.
Then the promised land got stuck in beaurocracy that lasted until the 1970s and 1980s, and of course by that time so many of the entitlees had died still waiting for their homestead, and the remaining Hawaiian community was so much more mixed with Portuguese, asian, caucasion, Puerto Rican, etc. that this new tactic of questioning "who is really 'Hawaiian'" has become the federal government's latest ploy.
Shameful, man
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nugsarenice
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Re: Native Hawaiians, are not actually Native Hawaiian [Re: hongomon]
#680025 - 06/15/02 09:56 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let me guess they were assimiliting with the polynesians, every hawaiian has his heritage that the polynesians came, settled peacefully, and brought with them 12 principle crops. Some of the best plants growing in Hawaii, Kava being one of these used for spiritual guidance between hawaiians and polynesians together. I keep on thinking back in time, wondering what it was like, and for some reason I believe the white people for all their industrial inventions were not really good farmers! You ask a hawaiian about the first white people who came, and they say "My grandfather ate Cook". I keep on looking through history, and for all the bullshit that people spew here about u.s. is in the same about wars and genocide, and they are wrong. Alot of wars have been waged, however to judge a countries genocide, or assimilation philosphies, one can just look at how many native ethnic languages survive
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Malachi
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 I hate to speak for all hawaiians.... [Re: nugsarenice]
#691182 - 06/20/02 05:21 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
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You see, I happen to be 1/4 hawaiian. I like on the Big Island of Hawaii in a town called Kamuela until I moved to the mainland when I was 11 years old. Now, You see, I'm also half Norwegien, so I guess I naturally felt a bit detached from whatever 'ethnic' roots I have by blood.
Anyway, interestingly enough, I came to my hatred of the fucked up, super-masculine trip we call 'imperialism' in the manner of all my white upper class friends and white-culture figures like bob dylan, abie hoffman, george orwell, noam chomsky, and more recently people like alan watts, herman hesse, aldous huxley, terrnace mckenna and tim leary. My point is that when I read soul on ice, I really could relate to eldrige cleaver, but not in a racial sense, but in the way jerry rubin must have related-- as a fellow outcast of this fucked up control freak thing called indrustrialized western society.
I think that it's important for my fellow hawaiians that being outside of society and demanding justice can be a consentual thing, a world view that is brought about not by their surroundings and the way that other people act toward a colored person-- anger, in short-- but through natural self awareness. The problem is that most people living under imperial yoke don't have the kinds of opportunities that I did. Hence the need to change. Hence revolution. Hence the desire for freedom, the light to live in a sovergein land. All people want to be able to choose their way of life. One things for sure-- the way hawaiian culture views drugs is vastly, VASTLY different that the way Amerikans view drugs. Hawaiians are dealing with epidemic levels of high purity crystal meth.We this shit that the houlies (whities) shoot in their arrms is fucked up-- my family lives with the land, growing 'awa (kava) and marijuana. Pot is a way of life, not perceived as a back ally 'drug', but what it is, a plant that's good for stopping the inner monologue and clearing the mind, so that the more aware levels of awareness can peak through. I want to live in this manner freely, without the forgeiner rules that the white oppressor has brought to my people's more sane cultural perspective. Not that I don't like computers and fast cars, but as eignstein said, 'it has become appalingly clear that our technology has exceeded our humanity'-- he was talking about the west, of course.
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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