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redtailedhawk
Explorer of the Mystery
Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 559
Loc: The Old Continent
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Nice.
-------------------- "Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: He probably didn't (doesn't) recognize how Gnostic his Christianity is!
Well, I suppose that depends on how loosely you define Gnosticism. There have been many Christian mystics who are not generally regarded as Gnostics. In fact, a major part of the Catholic counter-reformation was played by a group of Spanish mystics such as St. Ignatius of Loyolla and St. John of the Cross. These mystics were Catholic, following the Bible and not apocryphal works.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: LSD! [Re: Lion]
#6731300 - 03/31/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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There are Lysergic Acid Amides (LSA) in both Morning Glories and Hawaian Wood Rose. I have taken both. Wood Rose can be quite poisonous, even fatal in dosages over 12 seeds! Morning Glories I worked up to 250. There are obviously high concentrations in Wood Rose. The booklet was about conversion of LSA to LSD.
McKenna should not be taken too seriously, across the board. Just how much excessive drug use including decades of cannabis abuse, plus a growing brain tumor contributed to his far out ideas will never be known. I enjoyed his books, and we were 'Psychedelic Brothers,' so-to-speak, but his reveries were his own. As for me, Wood Rose gave me bodily blissful feelings of energy running through nadis or meridian lines as I lay on my bedroom floor. My buddy Ed just got a terrible belly ache and went home. Morning Glories always made me vomit, and then I would soar (even to the point of seeing huge silver kaleidoscopic doilies turning in the air)!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: LSD! [Re: dblaney]
#6731367 - 03/31/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I take your point and it's a good one.
But still I don't agree. Meditation is a tool because it can produce certain results. If meditation reduces stress then you cannot claim that is not true meditation as that is one of the effects of meditation. It's up to the individual to decide how far they want to take it.
As I have said before I have many acquaintances who have been long term meditators. They all spoke glowingly to these profound states to be experienced in meditation. In the end most quit even after 15 years or more. There lives did not reflect IMO, these profound experiences. They often were defensive if you challenged them about this, all in all they were regular folk with regular problems and skills.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Wood Rose can be quite poisonous, even fatal in dosages over 12 seeds!
Hmm, do you have any links to support this? I've just started using hbwr and haven't been able to find much solid information about them on the internet, even on erowid. As far as I understand, the fuzzy coating on the outside of the seed is the only part that is actually poisonous; the outer bark just causes nausea (which has been mild in my experience). I could be wrong.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,007
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Quote:
Icelander said: I take your point and it's a good one.
But still I don't agree. Meditation is a tool because it can produce certain results. If meditation reduces stress then you cannot claim that is not true meditation as that is one of the effects of meditation. It's up to the individual to decide how far they want to take it.
As I have said before I have many acquaintances who have been long term meditators. They all spoke glowingly to these profound states to be experienced in meditation. In the end most quit even after 15 years or more. There lives did not reflect IMO, these profound experiences. They often were defensive if you challenged them about this, all in all they were regular folk with regular problems and skills.
I have to say that a vast majority of people who pick up something like meditation are uncertain of their life choice and feel the need to have others choose the same thing as a way of becoming more certain themselves. Much of the sangha is uncertain of identity and looking to eachother to fortify their sense of good judgment.
Also a lot of people get stuck in ritual that cannot be integrated with regular life. they can easily forget how to meditate. some never try it again - even after being fanatical.
I guess the thing with meditation is to make it a practice that fits with your regular life in as many ways as possible, not changing anything, but fitting together like m.c.escher.
(it might take some lsd to see the sanity of that)
At some moments in life - situations seem to be problems (to be solved or work to be done), and any object or defineable process is a tool.
A task oriented intellect will pick a tool and solve a problem or do some work with it, then on to the next apprehension of trouble and fixing.
you could say anything or anybody is a tool, and any experience can be a predicament, which when treated skillfully with some tool can be less problematical.
I am not in this kind of position with lsd or with meditation usually. meditation is my personal unifying practice (i.e. not separated tool object, more like self returning home and sitting down) to getting quiet and focussed; and lsd is an interesting opportunity for a lazy day.
occasionally I look at meditation as an opportunity, when the terrain is looking particularly majestic or resonant.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Quote:
it stars saddam said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Wood Rose can be quite poisonous, even fatal in dosages over 12 seeds!
Hmm, do you have any links to support this? I've just started using hbwr and haven't been able to find much solid information about them on the internet, even on erowid. As far as I understand, the fuzzy coating on the outside of the seed is the only part that is actually poisonous; the outer bark just causes nausea (which has been mild in my experience). I could be wrong.
I don't have any data. I hope it is as false as strychnine on peyote. That was the data we had in the 70s.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 4 hours
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I've actually tried HBWR in doses upward of 20 seeds, washed but not ground. They were from a site that I generally trust but they must have been a particularly week strain. At the time I was experimenting with them the only experience I had with psychoactives was a lot of powerful cannabis highs, few hits of nitrous oxide, and one intensely uncomfortable trip on an overdose of salvia tea. The HBWR paled in comparison to all these; but again, it was almost definitely a weak strain or a bad crop.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: LSD! [Re: Lion]
#6731610 - 03/31/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have the highest quality Hawaiian strain (that was available through the vendor at least). 4 seeds make you trip.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: LSD! [Re: Lion]
#6731612 - 03/31/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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In my experience, I doubt LSD does anything I would not do on my own. It forces you to have accept and surrender to the present, and it makes your own mortality dance there right in front of your eyes, but the positive effects on your life would have likely come about on their own regardless. There's no need to do a lot of acid, though; one powerful trip will likely reveal to you everything you need to do, and you will find it out slightly faster than you would otherwise.
Don't think that LSD is the meaning of life or anything. If you see life as meaningless, it will be just as meaningless on LSD. Drugs never solve your problems so much as tell what aspects of your sober mind you should try to develop.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 4 hours
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Re: LSD! [Re: Ravus]
#6731622 - 03/31/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: In my experience, I doubt LSD does anything I would not do on my own. It forces you to have accept and surrender to the present, and it makes your own mortality dance there right in front of your eyes, but the positive effects on your life would have likely come about on their own regardless. There's no need to do a lot of acid, though; one powerful trip will likely reveal to you everything you need to do, and you will find it out slightly faster than you would otherwise.
Don't think that LSD is the meaning of life or anything. If you see life as meaningless, it will be just as meaningless on LSD. Drugs never solve your problems so much as tell what aspects of your sober mind you should try to develop.
Yes, I have found most of what you say to be true. My last trip freed up a lot of mental energy for me to put into worthwhile endeavors like physical exercise and excelling in school; but there is a constant nagging voice in my head saying that there is something I'm missing, that my energy output is not as beneficial to me and to the world as it could be if I were not missing some piece of the puzzle. I suppose this will change as I learn to trust my instincts more and develop my spiritual practices; nevertheless, I think for me an LSD trip in the near future on a moderate dose will be very worthwhile.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
But still I don't agree. Meditation is a tool because it can produce certain results. If meditation reduces stress then you cannot claim that is not true meditation as that is one of the effects of meditation. It's up to the individual to decide how far they want to take it.
I would liken meditation to breathing. Do we breathe because we are alive, or are we alive because we breathe?
In other words, is breathing a means to the end of living? Or the other way around? True meditation is an expression of our fundamental nature. It is not a means to the end of achieving our fundamental nature, it is itself our fundamental nature.
True meditation can reduce stress, but that is not the purpose of meditation. Relaxation is very useful in meditation, but in what I consider to be true meditation, one does not sit down with the goal and intention of reducing stress or anxiety or whatever. If you are experiencing discomfort or any sensation at all, then meditation is simply being with that experience, without trying to change it. When you do this, discomfort is remarkably reduced and tends to fall away fairly quickly, of its own accord. But this does not mean that reducing stress and anxiety is the point of meditation, it's more like a side effect.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: LSD! [Re: Ravus]
#6731787 - 03/31/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you see life as meaningless, it will be just as meaningless on LSD.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: LSD! [Re: dblaney]
#6732258 - 03/31/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
But still I don't agree. Meditation is a tool because it can produce certain results. If meditation reduces stress then you cannot claim that is not true meditation as that is one of the effects of meditation. It's up to the individual to decide how far they want to take it.
I would liken meditation to breathing. Do we breathe because we are alive, or are we alive because we breathe?
In other words, is breathing a means to the end of living? Or the other way around? True meditation is an expression of our fundamental nature. It is not a means to the end of achieving our fundamental nature, it is itself our fundamental nature.
True meditation can reduce stress, but that is not the purpose of meditation. Relaxation is very useful in meditation, but in what I consider to be true meditation, one does not sit down with the goal and intention of reducing stress or anxiety or whatever. If you are experiencing discomfort or any sensation at all, then meditation is simply being with that experience, without trying to change it. When you do this, discomfort is remarkably reduced and tends to fall away fairly quickly, of its own accord. But this does not mean that reducing stress and anxiety is the point of meditation, it's more like a side effect.
Everyone needs to breath but not everyone needs to meditate.
Our "fundamental nature"? What happens to it when we don't meditate? Is it not available to those who do not meditate? Are there other ways of accessing our "fundamental nature?
I still see meditation as a tool. I don't see meditation as being somehow special or different than anything else we do. Maybe we will have to disagree on this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
Everyone needs to breath but not everyone needs to meditate.
Breathing is an expression of life, and meditation is an expression of our true nature. You don't need to breathe, breathing is simply what happens when a being is alive. You don't need to meditate, its simply being true to ourselves.
Quote:
Our "fundamental nature"? What happens to it when we don't meditate?
Nothing, it's unconditioned.
Quote:
Is it not available to those who do not meditate?
It is, it's always present. However, it would be very difficult to realize it's presence without meditation, just as it would be very difficult to live without breathing.
Quote:
Are there other ways of accessing our "fundamental nature?
There's no need to access it, it's what you are! There's only a need to access it when you think you are separate from it. When you believe in the reality of self and other, existence and nonexistence, duality an nonduality, then you are misinterpreting reality itself, and suffer because of that.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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I guess I meant that his interpretation of the Gospels has been modified by his LSD experience[s]. His comment struck me more of Gnosis than of Mystic Union, but then, doesn't Gnosis occur when the Mystic Union flows back down into the plane of human realization? I'm thinking of the top 3 Kabbalistic sephira energies receding back across the Abyss (through Da'ath) and down into Tiphereth-Rahamim where one had to be (base camp!) before making the final ascent to the Summit.
Or again, the Tibetan Buddhist Mystery of Body, Speech and Mind after the OM experience in which the energies flow through the Throat Center (AH, Speech, Knowledge-Holding Deities) before they enter the Heart (HUM, Mind, Peaceful Deities).
Those are my two best shots - Head Center to Throat Center on the 'Descent Towards Realization' resulting in Gnosis. Comments, different descriptions?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: LSD! [Re: Lion]
#6733984 - 04/01/07 03:53 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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For me LSD has harmonized, and for periods, sustained certain tones that can reveal constrictions or tensions in my being and also disclose and open ekstasis (the elative moment between something old and something new).
I agree with the one that said if life normally seems meaningless it will be meaningless with LSD, but with a modification: probably. I assume this because from what I have observed LSD enhances the unfolding of what is folded within ourselves. It makes explicate what is intricate in ourselves.
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