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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #6720713 - 03/28/07 05:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I hear that. Just that this has been going on now for a long time and I am ready for a resolution. How many times does humanity have to prove the existence of a least the experience of GOD before people catch on to the process of actually making it happen?? In my opinion, our current leadership benefits from the absence of GOD. Its as if all of history is this process of pulling the sword from the stone. Every time someone does the story gets retold with a new twist that further obscures the reality. Who is telling the story?? Bastards. Its like growing weed. If you let that thing go, it will fill out into an enormous network of foliage. If you Tie it to a trellis you can make it do anything you want given the right stimulus. You can also keep it from completing a cycle if you never flower it. I am waiting for the fruit, damn it.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6721505 - 03/28/07 08:22 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

For the community's reference:
Please do be aware that some individuals do not make it back from that journey [Ref: Dedication]. If you're going to dabble, please do so wisely -- with your eyes wide open to the potential dangers.


See also:


.


Edited by spiritualemerg (03/29/07 01:10 AM)


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6721570 - 03/28/07 08:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

backfromthedead: I get the whole psychosis vs spiritual emergency thing. Actually along this particular path I had to accept that what I was doing was creating psychosis according to medicine.

I've recently been reading Stan Grof's The Holotropic Mind.  I suspect you would find it highly relevant to your own personal experience -- you can view an excerpt here

Otherwise, you seem to be in good space.  Do feel free to wander through either of my blogs or share them as you deem appropriate.  Here's another blog you may also enjoy: Mick Underground

My thanks to redtailedhawk for linking my blogs to this discussion. 



Music of the Hour: Higher


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~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


Edited by spiritualemerg (03/28/07 08:37 PM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6721811 - 03/28/07 09:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the posts.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6722059 - 03/28/07 10:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

~ Namaste. Accordingly.


.


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~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


Edited by spiritualemerg (03/28/07 10:42 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: evolprim]
    #6722313 - 03/28/07 11:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Read this classic about things gone wrong, then get back to the topic at hand.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6722344 - 03/28/07 11:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

MarkostheGnostic: Read this classic about things gone wrong, then get back to the topic at hand.

Hello gnostic Markos. Got synopsis?


See also:


Music of the Hour: Love Will Come Through



.


Edited by spiritualemerg (03/29/07 01:40 AM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6722953 - 03/29/07 02:41 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The legend continues...


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6723083 - 03/29/07 03:50 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Lakefingers The legend continues...

- scratching head -

Recall demonstrates that the intro went like this...

bradleycny: Do you know anyone who this happened to? I have heard many people vouch that they know of someone who has become psychotic, or "lost touch" through spiritual practice, but have never heard of a concrete example.


Lakefingers: This is called an urban legend. This is the name for modern folk-myths and tall-tales that are deemed reasonable by most people that hear them. Most of these people then retell them as "truths" about someone they know only as a friend (or as AFOAF), never in the first person. Urban legends are not always untrue (i.e. it might have happened to at least one person in a similar way as told in the story).

Usually urban legends are about mysterious sicknesses, unsettling experiences with seemingly harmless objects, horrifying criminality or mysterious behavior in other people. Urban legends deal with fears and phobias within the social consciousness.

Whether or not it once happened, why is this psychosis-through-meditation-legend retold? And why is it retold at the Shroomery in most of the forums? Or rather: How can it be retold (that is, how can it make sense)?


Perhaps the more pertinent question would be, could you recognize it if you heard it or would you find it necessary to denounce it as mere urban legend? And if so, why so?



.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6723129 - 03/29/07 04:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Why is that the more pertinent question? The subject is "Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama" not "Would Lakefingers recognize an urban legend?"

You would like me to defend myself for making an observation about the nature of the fiction. What is pertinent to the subject of the thread is to demonstrate that that observation is false or to show that the thread answered bradlecyncny's question, which it doesn't seem to have done.

And apparently, I did recognize it!


I am not denouncing the urban myth, because I never sanctioned it.

Additionally you're making a strawman out of my response when you say that I 'denounced it as mere urban legend'. This is not true. And although you're (consciously or not) derailing the issue, I will respond to your 'why not?' hoping that some clarity will come from this thread:

What I did is demonstrate that this fiction belongs to a tradition of thousands of similar fictions (and although it might be based on an event) the FOAF is irrelevant and nonexistent in the act of retelling. So perhaps what is important is the message. In that this story is similar to other stories I hope I have shown that it is tied to fear, folk psychology and oral tradition. If you reread my post you can discover more about why.

More reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend

As you quoted, bradlecyncny's question is: "Do you know anyone who this happened to? I have heard many people vouch that they know of someone who has become psychotic, or "lost touch" through spiritual practice, but have never heard of a concrete example." Has this been documenting happening to anyone? Importanlty, his question itself is just a reproduction of the urban legend.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6723131 - 03/29/07 04:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

As you wish.



.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6723371 - 03/29/07 07:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Back in the 1930s, Gopi Krishna had been meditating on his crown chakra for hours very early, every morning when he began to get experiences of the awakened Kundalini. The experiences were sporadic at first, and he describes them in great detail. One day a very painful event occurred and the aftermath caused him great physical and psychological illness. Temperatures, inability to eat, swallow, borderline madness (even had one yogi run awy from him, such were his 'vibes' and demeanor)!

Gopi had, apparently, had the Kundalini-Shakti enter the Pingala or solar channel rather than the central Sushumna channel. Now, understand that these terms are no more physiological than Chinese meridian lines, yet they are constructs that serve to explain certain psychophysical experiences.

The book is now a classic. Gopi Krishna died just a few years ago. I've read a couple of his other books.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/29/07 09:00 PM)


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6723583 - 03/29/07 10:06 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

On a similar note…

Jack Kornfield in Spiritual Emergency and in A Path With Heart talks about an explicit text from the Zen tradition that deals with meditation-induced psychosis and which is to be found in a book called The Tiger's Cave.

It tells the story of one of the most famous Japanese Zen masters, named Hakuin, who after strenuous efforts had an enlightenment experience when he was only thirty years old. His harmony later disintegrated into extreme physical and mental tortures, which were cured only after an Old Taoist hermit gave him a series of teachings outlines in the text that deal primarily with the two aspects of grounding and balancing the inner energy.

I've searched for that text in The Tiger's Cave, but it's too complicated for me to comprehend the exercises or I would share them here with the rest of you.


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"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6723588 - 03/29/07 10:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

My thanks to redtailedhawk for linking my blogs to this discussion.

You're welcome. It's good to see you decided to join us. I like your blogs. :thumbup:


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6723783 - 03/29/07 11:25 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
The legend continues...




I don't get it... Legend?? Factor in the reality that the legend replaces your ego structure and you are living it out. This is not to be taken lightly and just brushed off as some hallucination. It is real. Try to imagine a six week long bad trip. Worst trip in fact. As if this process has nothing to offer us as humans. Isn't it often said that although bad trips are extremely rough, these experiences teach you the most. Why not retell the 'legend' and stress the reality of it this time?? You know if you take and eat and put together the right set of information you can actually be born into heaven as a state of mind.

"Shake your fist at the gates sayin... I've come home now!! Fetch me the spirit the son and the father, tell them the pillar of faith has ascended." -Maynard James Keenan


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6724292 - 03/29/07 02:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, that was my opinion about the manner of the discussion.

I did not mean that psychological problems aren't sometimes caused by spiritual practive (see both my first and second reply). What I wished to demonstrate was that a certain way of talking about it doesn't help us clarify and understand the phenomenon.


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6725605 - 03/29/07 07:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

backfromthedead: Factor in the reality that the legend replaces your ego structure and you are living it out. This is not to be taken lightly and just brushed off as some hallucination. It is real. Try to imagine a six week long bad trip. Worst trip in fact. As if this process has nothing to offer us as humans. Isn't it often said that although bad trips are extremely rough, these experiences teach you the most. Why not retell the 'legend' and stress the reality of it this time??

What I find quite interesting is that your experience mimics my own in a number of way and my experience, in turn, would be a textbook case of what John Weir Perry would call "the psychotic-visionary episode" -- what's typically known as psychosis and/or schizophrenia in this culture. The startling thing is your experience was triggered by your use of mushrooms, I attribute my own to multiple losses and trauma, whereas "schizophrenia" (we're taking roughly 60 million people around the globe) is reputedly due to genetic or neurological disorders. Why then, are there so many common elements?

Quite frankly, I'm with you. I believe that experience we call psychosis in this culture is actually an altered state of consciousness that comes into play when one's ego fragments, collapses, or disintegrates for any number of reasons. [Ref: How to Produce an Acute Schizophrenic Break] What's important to understand is that the ego comes back; in fact it must come back -- the ego is the organizing principle of the psyche -- however, it comes back with a new center.

backfromthedead: Try to imagine a six week long bad trip.

If you feel comfortable sharing I'd be interested to know if you are referring to your length of "psychosis" or the entirety of that experience including your subsequent hospitalization. Meantime, here's a link you may enjoy. Try not to be weirded out by the "schizophrenia" label, there are many names for this experience and they vary by culture: Dr. R.D. Laing: The Experience of Schizophrenia

Lakefingers: I did not mean that psychological problems aren't sometimes caused by spiritual practive (see both my first and second reply). What I wished to demonstrate was that a certain way of talking about it doesn't help us clarify and understand the phenomenon.

I suggest you start here: Forms of Spiritual Emergency. You may also find this link insightful: From Spiritual Emergency to Spiritual Problem: The Transpersonal Roots of the New DSM-IV Category


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6725618 - 03/29/07 07:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

redtailedhawk: It's good to see you decided to join us. I like your blogs.

Thank you. My last series of discussions was in a slightly more formal setting (a mental health forum) and I'm sure it will be good to me to be able to relax a bit. I don't expect I'll be staying for long however. At the moment I'm interested in this thread and backfromthedead's experience, once this thread comes to it's natural conclusions I'll likely be moving on.

Meanwhile, this conversation will remain -- should anyone else wander in seeking support for "psychosis" attributable to their use of ethnogens or other causes, perhaps they'll find some value in it.

Thanks for the synopsis Markos. I have heard of Gopi Krishna's account but I've yet to read it.


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


Edited by spiritualemerg (03/29/07 08:08 PM)


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: spiritualemerg]
    #6725729 - 03/29/07 08:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I just read through this thread, and would like to welcome you brother.......you're going to be a great asset to the shroomery. :hug: :heartpump:

I'm looking forward to reading your blogs and those other links you posted. :thumbup:


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Edited by Dark_Star (03/29/07 08:35 PM)


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Invisiblespiritualemerg
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Dark_Star]
    #6726443 - 03/29/07 11:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Dark Star: I just read through this thread, and would like to welcome you brother.......you're going to be a great asset to the shroomery.

Thank you, although I'm not so sure I can be an asset to the shroomery aside from a possible resource for those who hit psychosis as a result of their experimentation. My own experience with mushrooms was many, many years ago. Someone told me they had aphrodisiac qualities -- they were wrong, but they did produce some amazing kaleidoscopes of colors on the inside of my eyelids.

Meantime... backfromthedead, I went back to find your original post -- the sheer number of similarities are rather incredible. You spoke of the abyss, I was there too. You noted that your psychosis came to a conclusion after about six weeks -- that's consistent with Perry's work as well as my own experience.

Quote:

O'C: Did Jung really see this as a healing process?

PERRY: He did indeed! He believed that "schizophrenia" is a self-healing process - one in which, specifically, the pathological complexes dissolve themselves. The whole schizophrenic turmoil is really a self-organising, healing experience. It's like a molten state. Everything seems to be made of free energy, an inner free play of imagery through which the alienated psyche spontaneously re-organises itself - in such a way that the conscious ego is brought back into communication with the unconscious again.

O'C: How long does the experience normally last?

PERRY: The acute hallucinatory phase, during which these contents go through the re-ordering process, usually lasts about six weeks. This, by the way, corresponds to the classical description of visionary experiences in various religious texts, such as the proverbial "forty days in the wilderness" often referred to in the Bible. Anyway, six weeks is roughly it.

O'C: So are you saying that the reason we have so-called "chronic schizophrenia" in our society, - where a person is medicated, distressed or hospitalised for decades - is really cultural? A society which refuses to understand the healing nature of the phenomenon?

PERRY: Yes, it seems so. Of course, there are some unusual cases where the individual simply can't handle the impact of all this unconscious content, or doesn't know what to do with it, and freaks out. But from my experience at Diabasis, I've seen so many people go the other way that I really do feel "chronic schizophrenia" is created by society's negative response to what is actually a perfectly natural and healthy process. I hate to think of what happens to people who go into the mental hospital...

Source: Mental Breakdown as Healing






You seem to be in good space backfromthedead but I imagine you're still in a phase of integrating the lessons of that experience. I'm still learning from mine and I suspect I will continue to do so for a very long time to come. Have you happened to stumble across this site yet? It's got some good info. I'm quite fond of this page: Night Enfolds Her Cloak of Holes

I thought I would mention too, that Stanislov Grof pioneered a form of breathwork that allows one to reach altered states of consciousness. Should you wish to continue your explorations of the transpersonal realm you might want to check out information on Holotropic Breathwork. I haven't tried it myself... maybe one day.

Music of the Hour: Strange Days ~ Beautiful Midnight


.


--------------------
~ Kindness is cheap.  It's unkindness that always demands the highest price.

Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis


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