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OfflineEpigallo
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Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama
    #6718456 - 03/28/07 12:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Do you know anyone who this happened to? I have heard many people vouch that they know of someone who has become psychotic, or "lost touch" through spiritual practice, but have never heard of a concrete example.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Epigallo]
    #6718525 - 03/28/07 12:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Nor I, although I have heard many stories about those who moved the kundalini energy before they were stable emotionally and physically.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Icelander]
    #6718829 - 03/28/07 02:47 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

ive heard of it happening but ive never seen a case study.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Epigallo]
    #6718831 - 03/28/07 02:48 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have heard many people vouch that they know of someone who has become psychotic, or "lost touch" through spiritual practice, but have never heard of a concrete example.




Remember those guys who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/28/07 04:22 PM)


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Epigallo]
    #6718877 - 03/28/07 03:14 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yes i heard this about kundalini meditation as well. it seems to be that those who experience psychosis in this situation ( and presumabely in all situations) can work through it and attain liberation in this way.
thus the psychosis may not be a bad thing and may actually move their spiritual development in the right direction.
it seems to be a result of misunderstanding the changes that are taking place to ones consciousness.
i guess you could say the same about an lsd/mushroom trip.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Epigallo]
    #6718912 - 03/28/07 03:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This is called an urban legend. This is the name for modern folk-myths and tall-tales that are deemed reasonable by most people that hear them. Most of these people then retell them as "truths" about someone they know only as a friend (or as AFOAF), never in the first person. Urban legends are not always untrue (i.e. it might have happened to at least one person in a similar way as told in the story).

Usually urban legends are about mysterious sicknesses, unsettling experiences with seemingly harmless objects, horrifying criminality or mysterious behavior in other people. Urban legends deal with
fears and phobias within the social consciousness.

Whether or not it once happened, why is this psychosis-through-meditation-legend retold? And why is it retold at the Shroomery in most of the forums? Or rather: How can it be retold (that is, how can it make sense)?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6718933 - 03/28/07 03:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

well I know people who were lost,
but IMO they were lost before they were found.

well maybe just a bit.

often a competitive edge in an area of noncompetition...
a materialistic bent in an immaterial field,
a dependency upon others on a private journey
these things tip the scales.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6719196 - 03/28/07 09:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
a dependency upon others on a private journey
these things tip the scales.





I am guilty of this


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama *DELETED* [Re: leery11]
    #6719461 - 03/28/07 11:47 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by soulcircus (03/28/07 11:48 AM)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: soulcircus]
    #6719500 - 03/28/07 11:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i have some siddhis coming through with inner vision and i'm left uncertain as to whether my yoga teacher understands and is playing "dumb" or if i (as odd as it seems) have more understanding of mind/reality synchrony than she does as i have said things like do you have any experience with the third eye and she denies it

the relationship dichotomy needs to be reconfigured but communication is sort of broken down.

on a related note i was playing with some magnets at a coffee shop and laboriously making them say "Soy" and getting it aesthetic, focusing a lot on it, and the barrista asked a friend of mine "did she want soy milk" and he was like "no i don't think so" and no one could answer the question of whether the woman said soy or not, the barrista kept saying "did she say soy?" and i told her "well i just wrote it maybe that's why" and she shrugged it off

i need help with these things, but maybe not. maybe they will smooth themselves in at the perfect pace.

i think my tai chi instructor is realized enough to assist me and intervene if he sees i need it though.

but it seems like these things ought to be not spoken of? are there reprecussions for discussing "psychic" abilities online?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (03/28/07 12:26 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: leery11]
    #6719527 - 03/28/07 12:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Incorrect meditation technique, kundalini awakening without stability in meditation, getting attached to 'mystical' experiences, all of these things can lead one down the path of psychosis.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: leery11]
    #6719683 - 03/28/07 12:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
i have some siddhis coming through with inner vision and i'm left uncertain as to whether my yoga teacher understands and is playing "dumb" or if i (as odd as it seems) have more understanding of mind/reality synchrony than she does as i have said things like do you have any experience with the third eye and she denies it

the relationship dichotomy needs to be reconfigured but communication is sort of broken down.

on a related note i was playing with some magnets at a coffee shop and laboriously making them say "Soy" and getting it aesthetic, focusing a lot on it, and the barrista asked a friend of mine "did she want soy milk" and he was like "no i don't think so" and no one could answer the question of whether the woman said soy or not, the barrista kept saying "did she say soy?" and i told her "well i just wrote it maybe that's why" and she shrugged it off

i need help with these things, but maybe not. maybe they will smooth themselves in at the perfect pace.

i think my tai chi instructor is realized enough to assist me and intervene if he sees i need it though.

but it seems like these things ought to be not spoken of? are there reprecussions for discussing "psychic" abilities online?




you say siddhis
you may mean phenomena

I presume you are very interested in siddhis, talking about it on the internet is not bad at all.
being very interested in obtaining siddhis can be a huge drawback, however, -very frustrating - because they are secondary results, or indirect results, from meditation and moving through life.
we are not articulated to have direct control over siddhis and our personal merit has nothing to do with siddhis.

you find very contorted people who have devoted themselves to some siddhi or another as if captured by a djinn, and perhaps you can relate to the whole genie in a bottle complex.

meantime find a teacher who can teach you yoga authoritatively if you want your 3rd eye exploration to be more guided.

in my opinion, it is not in the class of important phenomena, while simple hatha yoga is very important.

aim for this simpler objective and what comes comes, at least your base orientation and body will be healthy.


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Epigallo]
    #6719929 - 03/28/07 01:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't personally know of any people who this happened to, but there are reports on this both online and in scientific literature. It seems this is not only an urban legend. Here's why: :mushroom2:

Quote:

Transpersonal theory proposes that there are developmental stages beyond the adult ego, which involve experiences of connectedness with phenomena considered outside the boundaries of the ego. In healthy individuals, these developmental stages can engender the highest human qualities, including altruism, creativity, and intuitive wisdom. For persons lacking healthy ego development, however, such experiences [deep meditation, psychedelic experiences, etc.] can lead to psychosis. Superficially, transpersonal states look similar to psychosis. However, transpersonal theory can assist clinicians in discriminating between these two conditions, thereby optimizing treatment. The authors discuss various therapeutic methods, including transpersonal psychopharmacology and the therapeutic use of altered states of consciousness.
(A Review of Transpersonal Theory and Its Application to the Practice of Psychotherapy, Mark C. Kasprow, M.D.)




Quote:

A more important factor in regard to prognosis [in psychedelic psychotherapy] is the ego strength. Experimental work is generally more difficult and lasts longer in clients, who do not have sufficient grounding in consensus reality, show an unstable and precarious personality structure, and find it difficult to maintain clear boundaries between their inner process and the external world.
(Adventure of Self Discovery, Grof)




So it seems that supposedly this can happen to persons who lack healthy ego development, ego strength and sufficient grounding in consensus reality. People with this kind of symptomalogy should  either avoid transpersonal practices altogether or combine them with ego supporting practices such as deep psychotherapy, systematic use of nourishing body contact in regressed states (Grof) and intense aerobic exercise.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #6719953 - 03/28/07 02:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redtailedhawk said:
I don't personally know of any people who this happened to, but there are reports on this both online and in scientific literature. It seems this is not only an urban legend. Here's why: :mushroom2:

Quote:

Transpersonal theory proposes that there are developmental stages beyond the adult ego, which involve experiences of connectedness with phenomena considered outside the boundaries of the ego. In healthy individuals, these developmental stages can engender the highest human qualities, including altruism, creativity, and intuitive wisdom. For persons lacking healthy ego development, however, such experiences [deep meditation, psychedelic experiences, etc.] can lead to psychosis. Superficially, transpersonal states look similar to psychosis. However, transpersonal theory can assist clinicians in discriminating between these two conditions, thereby optimizing treatment. The authors discuss various therapeutic methods, including transpersonal psychopharmacology and the therapeutic use of altered states of consciousness.
(A Review of Transpersonal Theory and Its Application to the Practice of Psychotherapy, Mark C. Kasprow, M.D.)




Quote:

A more important factor in regard to prognosis [in psychedelic psychotherapy] is the ego strength. Experimental work is generally more difficult and lasts longer in clients, who do not have sufficient grounding in consensus reality, show an unstable and precarious personality structure, and find it difficult to maintain clear boundaries between their inner process and the external world.
(Adventure of Self Discovery, Grof)




So it seems that supposedly this can happen to persons who lack healthy ego development, ego strength and sufficient grounding in consensus reality. People with this kind of symptomalogy should  either avoid transpersonal practices altogether or combine them with ego supporting practices such as deep psychotherapy, systematic use of nourishing body contact in regressed states (Grof) and intense aerobic exercise.




Yes indeed. This is precisely why anyone who comes on this board who is asking for help with psychosis, should usually be told to avoid spiritual practices, literature etc, until they have enough of a good grounding in consensus reality. You have to know the curtain first, before you can look behind it.


--------------------


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #6720005 - 03/28/07 02:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

My first post was actually this very kind of experience. Very scary. In my experience, my path led me to create a reality in my head that I believed in, then enough mushrooms and meditation on the truths that made up that particular thought world and... BAM!! I was flipped into it. I woke up in my dream world as the role of the hero. I was to give the elixir back to the people after retrieving it from the underworld/psychosis. I was Jesus. I was Lucifer. I was the Teacher. I was held down and given a giant shot in the top of the ass. Ten days of psych ward hall wandering and six weeks of drowning in the absolute finally gave way to a new reality structure better equipped to incorporate infinity. Enlightened?? Psychotic?? Is there a difference?? I rolled the damn door of the tomb back and was resurrected. HA!! Pretty crazy though in that when I woke up I was dead. I knew it. I could smell it. Others around me were dead also. Fucking DEAD. What was really remarkable about this experience was that while on this large dose meditation I experienced a large zap to the head. I was deep in thought and charging the energy system when bzzapp!! It felt like lightning struck me in the forehead. Scared the shit out of me. Don't know if I had an aneurysm, was fucking blasted by a hovering saucer, or popped the top. As in the crown. Careful ya'll. Have support when your path leads through hell.


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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6720060 - 03/28/07 02:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, that is very interesting.

How much mushrooms and meditation were you doing? What else led you to create a reality which was disconnected from others?

If there is a point where you can say your path began, how grounded would you say were at that point? Did you consider yourself functional and well rounded?

I hope you don't mind me asking these things. Thanks for sharing so far.


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6720086 - 03/28/07 02:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Your experience [role of the hero, Jesus and Lucifer identification] sounds more like a spiritual emergency than a psychotic episode. Too bad you were hospitalized instead of offered a safe environment where you could ride your whole experience through without the use of suppressive medication.

If you're interested to what happened to you I suggest you take a look at Grof's book Spiritual Emergency and the material from John Weir Perry.

Those two blogs seem okay too:

http://spiritualemergency.blogspot.com/
http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot.com/index.html

Good luck!


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: Epigallo]
    #6720478 - 03/28/07 04:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I ate mushrooms this first time when I was 18 and had the distinct realization that I had just ingested the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I had no religious background. My family had never been to church. Since then I partook and filled myself up as often as I could. Azures on the beach in OR mostly. I would pick in the fall/winter and have enough for the whole year. Once a week or once every two weeks through college. Once I ate 20 large Azurescens experienced complete ego death, the voice of the logos, and the mystic transcendent state that imprinted the belief in GOD. What ever the hell it is. I shut off the external world and isolated myself until until I could grasp what was going on, to me. After this my old reality structure was supplemented by an enormous appetite of new information as the cracks in my reality myth appeared. Each piece of info was like a building block. Using the internet I traced down each idea and surrounded it by research and meditation. Pretty soon... about a couple years, and I was living in a new web of interrelated thought associations. But, only in my head. I still experienced the duality of living one reality while another was emerging.

What led me to create a reality?? The need. My experience. I lived in the divide and I sought to patch the crack with some spiritual putty. I saw the church as an elaborate sham but sensed an ultimate truth behind the theatrics. The sacrament. The Christ. I saw the common denominator as the Human Subconscious or unconscious or collective unconscious. I saw a way to manifest this phenomena. Psychedelics= mind manifesting. Entheogen= generating GOD within. More specifically mushrooms, man. Got Manna?? I wanted to be the Hero.

I would say my path began as a child. I grew up with a ton of Mormons. My childhood was unsupervised and unstructured. I always compared my experience with that of others. I believed that I was able to know what GOD was somehow. I looked at the Mormons with their claimed beliefs and was super confused. It was known in my community among the kids that got to actually live life that the Mormons didn't know jack shit. How can GOD be truth if the Mormons, claiming access to GOD, seem so removed from life. This was my thought process as a kid. I began to see the church as a good idea if it could actually produce a religious experience. I sought the experience. In seeking I was consistently let down by the explanations given by the church. It seemed that I already accepted GOD as a reality but the church wanted me to believe in a fairy tale. I did not believe in fairy tales.

I was a typical non-religious western kid with an eye for the abstract and an ear for REAL things. I was very functional and well rounded. From an upper middle class family, made good grades. When my parents divorced and I moved away from my comfort zone as a senior in high school I experienced the realization that my life or ego was completely dependent on my previous surroundings. I experienced a sort ego death and sought to figure out a set of info that would form the basis of a personality that wouldn't be dependent on people, places, or society at all. Once very materially oriented, Abercrombie and Fitch and the whole deal, I quickly realized that I would have to drop habits as they were now only hindrances to who I really wanted to be.

When I experienced Mushrooms my first year of college it was a god damn no brainer. When you start living what you are reading the inner becomes the outer. The fairy tale became real. I was pissed as now I saw that cracker and cup of fucking alcohol as a very bad joke. Especially living the reality that alcohol destroyed my family. I knew Christ was out to teach people the WAY. "Take eat, this is my flesh..." Some jack ass fouled the process by removing the KEY to the whole riddle. The Mushroom. When I realized that Shamanism was actually the foundation of religion I like clicked over. When I found out that the Latin American cultures actually called the mushrooms 'flesh of god' and they used them in a religious context... Well, that sealed the deal.

17g one night last year and all duality ceased. There was no outer and inner anymore. I experienced death and was reborn as the Saviour. This was my world. I had a job to do. Only I remembered being in a ship strapped to a brain machine being forced to compete with someone in some weird thought association experiment. I remember hearing, "when you see this, say this." over and over as images were presented to me. I remember feeling like an i pod that had just been filled with thousands of files. I couldn't remember if it was mushrooms, GOD, Jesus, Lucifer, Aliens, or just energy. Somehow I missed something. Or so I thought. After all the drugs I couldn't remember anything. The six weeks after this whole ordeal are mostly blank. Insights are slowly trickling back in and for this I am extremely happy. I feel like I am living another life altogether with the understanding that I have lived one before all the way to the end. Death. I can compare the two a build a new one.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6720568 - 03/28/07 04:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I get the whole psychosis vs spiritual emergency thing. Actually along this particular path I had to accept that what I was doing was creating psychosis according to medicine. Thing was that I had amassed enough information to make sense to spiritually minded people. Doctors didn't know what to do. Its like they knew that what I was talking about was real but they just silenced it with a syringe. Stupid fuckers, what a way to welcome one in. The whole psychiatric community is an agent of darkness.


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Psychosis/fucked up through meditation/yoga/pranayama [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6720601 - 03/28/07 04:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The whole psychiatric community is an agent of darkness.

They're just scared. But the new field of transpersonal psychology is a bright light in it all, so things may change.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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