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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6715134 - 03/27/07 12:13 AM (17 years, 7 days ago)

Jesus fucking Christ. I've told you already several times that whether or not the need to have children is indeed instinctive is not suitable for this thread. Is there any way I can possibly make it any more clear?

No more derailing this thread.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Redstorm]
    #6715170 - 03/27/07 12:23 AM (17 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Jesus fucking Christ. I've told you already several times that whether or not the need to have children is indeed instinctive is not suitable for this thread. Is there any way I can possibly make it any more clear?

No more derailing this thread.




I see. Where would be the appropriate forum to continue this discussion?

Also this:
Quote:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:More humans means more cows to feed them, more cars to transport them, etc




Meat cloning, electric cars, proper dieting and public transportation are possible options by which to solve both the above problems without reducing the human population.

In any event, I fail to understand your logic. Namely because I would think it more difficult to repress an instinct as deep and general as a person's desire for children, then it would be to remove a person's preference for gasoline cars, or get them to adopt a vegan diet. It seems to me if society can't do the latter, you will not be able to get society to do the former.







Can it remain a relevant point in this thread so long as we treat the instinct as a premise accepted for sake of argument and not a subject of discussion?


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (03/27/07 12:24 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6715187 - 03/27/07 12:26 AM (17 years, 7 days ago)

As long as it remains related to the original post, I see no problem with it. This forum is fine for the other topic you guys were discussion. Just make a new thread and debate to your heart's content about it. It's just not fair top the original thread-maker when their thread gets derailed.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Redstorm]
    #6715209 - 03/27/07 12:30 AM (17 years, 7 days ago)

Thank you for the explanation. And I agree- it is unfair to derail threads. =)


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6715904 - 03/27/07 08:56 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The cow problem, as with fossil fuels as well, is the overpopulation of humans.




That's a subjective statement.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:More humans means more cows to feed them, more cars to transport them, etc




Meat cloning, electric cars, proper dieting and public transportation are possible options by which to solve both the above problems without reducing the human population.

In any event, I fail to understand your logic.




They clone cows, NOT meat, so that argument is void.

Electric cars would be wonderful if we could develop ways to generate electricity to recharge them without burning fossil fuels or destroying rivers and their fish population to produce hydro power.

Population explosion is still the biggest cause of global warming. In the last 75 years, 96% of our forests have been reduced to nothingness by clear cutting. Only 4% of the old growth forests remain. When they clearcut and then plant a 'tree farm' the trees grow so close together as to create a huge fire hazzard. Forest fires are almost always in the clear cut areas and not in the 4% of the old growth forests that are left. It's awfully hard to start a forest fire with trees that are 10+ feet in diameter. Both clear cutting, and forest fires reduce the O2 output of the forests, which by default raises the CO2 levels of the planet that contribute to global warming.

Reduce population, and we reduce the amount of cows, the amount of deforestation, the amount of fossil fuel burned, blah, blah, blah.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa


Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Diploid]
    #6716016 - 03/27/07 10:03 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

I bet my farts cause more damge then a heard of 400. :brucelee:

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Offlinemr_kite
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6716402 - 03/27/07 12:48 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Fucking cows. You cant even fuck em. Sheep ftw!


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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: mr_kite]
    #6716614 - 03/27/07 01:56 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Fucking cows. You cant even fuck em.

Don't be so sure. Have you tried? :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6716856 - 03/27/07 03:21 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
They clone cows, NOT meat, so that argument is void.




I said we should start research on it.



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:Electric cars would be wonderful if we could develop ways to generate electricity to recharge them without burning fossil fuels or destroying rivers and their fish population to produce hydro power.




Perfectionist fallacy.

Just because electric cars are not a perfect solution, does not mean they are not better then gasoline driven. In any event, there are several ways of avoiding these alleged problems, for example, we could use nuclear power or we could use more public transportation (maybe even electrically powered public transport).

In any event, how much extra pollution created by coal does an electrical car even create? I bet the amount is so insignificant, especially in comparison to directly burning oil, as to make the above complaint rather trivial.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:Population explosion is still the biggest cause of global warming. In the last 75 years, 96% of our forests have been reduced to nothingness by clear cutting.




Is clear cutting even the biggest cause of global warming?

From what you have stated, most of what you said only applies to the united states, and its effect on global warming even then is somewhat unclear. I hope you have more to support your claim of overpopulation then clear cutting.


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:Reduce population, and we reduce the amount of cows, the amount of deforestation, the amount of fossil fuel burned, blah, blah, blah.




Not necessarily. A lot of what causes global warming has more to do with specific cultural practices then population growth alone.

The proof of this lies in the fact that the United States is the biggest contributor to global warming, but does not have the largest population. We even contribute more co2 then china, and they have four times as many people. Don't get me wrong, china does pollute a lot but the fact that a far more populous country pollutes less then the US pokes a whole into your argument that global warming is primarily effected by population size to the point of eclipsing other factors.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (03/27/07 03:22 PM)

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa


Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Diploid]
    #6717834 - 03/27/07 08:14 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Fucking cows. You cant even fuck em.

Do be so sure. Have you tried? :tongue:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOy_WdMNgBw :sheepie:

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6717976 - 03/27/07 08:38 PM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

I would think it more difficult to repress an instinct as deep and general as a person's desire for children


I dont agree. The instinct is to have sex, not to have children. This is a big difference with the advent of the pill. The wealthiest people in the world (like americans and french etc) do not want to have babies. And they dont.




Some would argue the pleasurable aspect of sex is a result of evolution to encourage humans (and other animals) to reproduce. Therefore the instinct to have sex and the instinct to reproduce are one in the same before we get into society's impact on how various cultures view sex and reproduction. Others also believe that due to the ever increasingly and seemingly dangerously high rate of reproduction that eventually sex won't be as pleasurable as it is now.
Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:

In any event, I fail to understand your logic. Namely because I would think it more difficult to repress an instinct as deep and general as a person's desire for children, then it would be to remove a person's preference for gasoline cars, or get them to adopt a vegan diet. It seems to me if society can't do the latter, you will not be able to get society to do the former.




You don't think it is instinctual to eat meat and that we develop concepts of vegan and vegetarian diets later in life due to treatment of a vast majority of animals raised for consumption or for health reasons?

I don't think killing off all the cows or converting people to vegan diets is a good solution, it seems that the best one would be to try and educate people on sex and reproduction (which we already do but it still doesn't work too effectively), and to convince people that the need for 16 children isn't really a need, it's a desire.


--------------------
!

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6719074 - 03/28/07 05:13 AM (17 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

In any event, how much extra pollution created by coal does an electrical car even create? I bet the amount is so insignificant, especially in comparison to directly burning oil, as to make the above complaint rather trivial.




This is the big problem with most of the global warming crowd... "I bet the amount is so insignificant..." Unfortunately, science doesn't care about gut feelings and is often counter-intuitive to what one would think as making sense.

In this case, anytime you convert energy from one for to another, such as from heat to electricity, you loose a bit through inefficiencies of the conversion. An electric car, charged by electricity created from the burning of fossil fuels, will always be less efficient that a gasoline car. Less efficient does not mean less clean. The power plants can use scrubbers, etc, to produce clean power. Less efficient means burning more fossil fuel to generate equivilant motion.

> for example, we could use nuclear power or we could use more public transportation

Great, so instead of killing the planet for the next few hundred years, we will kill the planet for the next few million years. Contrary to popular global warming belief, fission based nuclear power is not the answer and will create more problems than it solves. Of course, we will all be dead before these problems become really nasty... something for our children to worry about, I suppose.

> A lot of what causes global warming has more to do with specific cultural practices then population growth alone.

... as if we know what is causing global warming. We don't even know of the warming of the planet is natural or not, let alone what is causing it...

> The proof of this lies in the fact that the United States is the biggest contributor to global warming

That isn't proof, it is a claim. Not only is it a claim, it is a claim based upon the assumptions that global warming exists and it being caused by mankind.

> You don't think it is instinctual to eat meat

Based upon the human jaw structure along with the human stomatogastric system, there is no doubt that humans are 'designed' to eat and process meat.

> it seems that the best one would be to try and educate people on sex and reproduction

Simple education would be fine. There are several studies that show an inverse correlation between education and number of offspring. On average, the more educated a couple, the less likely they are to have children.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Seuss]
    #6719137 - 03/28/07 06:28 AM (17 years, 5 days ago)

In this case, anytime you convert energy from one for to another, such as from heat to electricity, you loose a bit through inefficiencies of the conversion.

Right.

And this is why I have said and keep saying that most of the worlds problems will vanish the day commercially viable hydrogen or helium fusion is developed and is why I'm astonished that our drooling moron president wants to put so much money into a space station and manned mission to Mars (and idiotic wars) that would be better spent developing fusion technology.

Once that technology is in place, developing a space station and going to Mars would be far cheaper than it is today, and electric cars will truly be nearly pollution free and highly economical.

Another likely outcome will be world peace when everyone has cheap, clean, safe, and essentially inexhaustible energy.

We're putting the cart before the horse with space exploration at this point in our technological development.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Diploid]
    #6719797 - 03/28/07 11:18 AM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
We're putting the cart before the horse with space exploration at this point in our technological development.




Yes, exactly. I have a feeling it won't be far too long before fusion technology is in place and the world dramatically changes as a result, for the better.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: jewunit]
    #6720383 - 03/28/07 01:54 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

jewunit said:
You don't think it is instinctual to eat meat and that we develop concepts of vegan and vegetarian diets later in life due to treatment of a vast majority of animals raised for consumption or for health reasons?




I think we do have an instinctive craving for meat.


Quote:

jewunit said:I don't think killing off all the cows or converting people to vegan diets is a good solution,




The former, maybe if its an emergency. The latter, I agree.

Quote:

jewunit said:it seems that the best one would be to try and educate people on sex and reproduction (which we already do but it still doesn't work too effectively)




Actually the sex education system of this country is rather lacking, with much of the focus being placed on unproven abstinence programs. Also, with regards to reduce population size offering career opportunities, especially to women, seems to play a crucial role in lowering the birth rate.

Keep in mind however much of the population growth in the United States comes from immigration.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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InvisibleArp
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6720756 - 03/28/07 03:32 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

I think we do have an instinctive craving for meat.





Why?

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Seuss]
    #6720932 - 03/28/07 04:07 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
This is the big problem with most of the global warming crowd... "I bet the amount is so insignificant..." Unfortunately, science doesn't care about gut feelings and is often counter-intuitive to what one would think as making sense.




tiny_url

"Short tons CO2
(conventional,
mostly fossil fuel
electricity production):

Model:

2002 Toyota RAV4-EV (pure BEV)-3.8

2000 Toyota RAV4 2wd (gasoline)-7.2

Other battery electric vehicle(s):

2000 Nissan Altra EV -3.5

Hybrid vehicles

2001 Honda Insight -3.1

2005 Toyota Prius-3.5

2005 Ford Escape H 2x-5.8

2005 Ford Escape H 4x-6.2

Internal combustion engine vehicles

2005 Dodge Neon 2.0L-6.0

2005 Ford Escape 4x-8.0

2005 GMC Envoy XUV 4x-11.7




Even taking into account the co2 produced by coal power electrical and hybrid cars produce approximately half the amount of co2.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Arp]
    #6720964 - 03/28/07 04:12 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

I think we do have an instinctive craving for meat.





Why?




Because a strong instinct for meat would have been useful in our ancestral evolutionary environment.

Quote:

The Blank Slate has also undermined by evolutionary psychology and anthropology. For example, despite the undeniable variation among cultures, we now know that there is a vast set of universal traits that are common to all of the world's 6,000 cultures. Also, evolutionary psychology has shown that many of our motives make no sense in terms of our day-to-day efforts to enhance our physical and psychological well-being, but they can be explained in terms of the mechanism of natural selection operating in the environment in which we evolved.

A relatively uncontroversial example is our tastes for sugar and fat, which were adaptive in an environment in which those nutrients were in short supply but don't do anyone any good in a modern environment in which they are cheap and available anywhere. A more controversial example may be the universal thirst for revenge, which was one's only defense in a world in which one couldn't dial 911 to get the police to show up if one's interests were threatened. A belligerent stance was one's only deterrent against other people whose interests were in conflict with one's own. Another one is our taste for attractive marriage partners. As wise people have pointed out for millennia, this makes no sense in terms of how happy or compatible the couple will be. The curve of your date's nose, or the shape of her chin, doesn't predict how well one you're going to get along with her for the rest of your life. But evolutionary psychology has show that the physical features of beauty are cues to health and fertility. Our fatal weakness for attractive partners can be explained in terms of our evolutionary history, not our personal calculations of well-being.




http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker_blank/pinker_blank_p3.html


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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InvisibleArp
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Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6721128 - 03/28/07 04:43 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

Since meat has been found to release morphine-like opiate compounds when digested I'd say that is the primary reason why it's common in our diet.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: UN: Cow Farts Cause Global Warming! [Re: Arp]
    #6721289 - 03/28/07 05:23 PM (17 years, 5 days ago)

I think I read somewhere that chocolate does the same thing. :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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