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InvisibleLuddite
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Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’
    #6710712 - 03/25/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’

David Rose
By the end of the decade one in four new cases of schizophrenia could be triggered by smoking cannabis, scientists say.

Research has suggested that regular users of the drug are up to six times more likely to develop schizophrenia, although whether the drug is the direct cause remains disputed.

The Department of Health says it is now generally agreed among doctors that cannabis is an “important causal factor” in mental illness.

A study published in the journal Addiction predicts that, if the causal link between cannabis use and schizophrenia is accepted, rates of the illness will increase substantially by 2010, especially among young men.

The use of cannabis grew fourfold over the 30 years to 2002, and eighteenfold among under18s, the researchers say.

Such a boom in cannabis use could lead to increases in the number of new cases of schizophrenia of 29 per cent between 1990 and 2010.

Cannabis was downgraded from a class B drug to class C in 2004. The new study comes after a new classification system for drugs proposed by scientists this week placed tobacco and alcohol well ahead of cannabis in substances thought to do most harm.

The researchers examined the historic rise in cannabis use alongside new occurrences of schizophrenia in Nottingham, Bristol and the London Borough of Southwark. Predictions based on the data suggest that if the association is confined to heavy cannabis users then approximately 10 per cent of schizophrenia cases may be due to cannabis by 2010.

However, assuming an association between onset of the disease and both light and heavy users, then as many as one quarter of new cases could be due to cannabis.

So far, about 8 per cent of schizophrenia cases have been attributed to the use of cannabis.

John Macleod, a co-author of the study and an academic GP, said: “Our study does not address the question whether cannabis directly causes schizophrenia — this remains unclear — but what is clear is that if you assume such a link then the number of cases of schizophrenia will increase significantly in line with increased use of the drug.”

Matthew Hickman, the lead author of the study, added: “The challenge now is to improve our data on schizophrenia occurrence to see whether the projected increase occurs — which will tell us more about how important cannabis is as a cause of schizophrenia.”

According to the mental health charity Rethink, at least five international studies have found that cannabis doubles the risk of mental illness, including schizophrenia.

A spokesman for the charity said: “We now know that cannabis can be a trigger for mental health problems and smoking it under the age of 18 can double people’s chances of developing psychosis.”

Last year the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs concluded that there may be a link between cannabis use and psychotic illnesses, but found insufficient evidence that frequent users were more likely to develop schizophrenia.

There are also fears that modern variants of the drug such as skunk, from the tips of the cannabis plant, are 20 to 30 times more powerful than those available 30 years ago.

However, Leslie Iversen, of the University of Oxford, dismissed this as untrue. “The advisory council looked at this carefully,” he said. “Cannabis resin has changed little and is about 5 per cent tetrahydrocan-nabinol [THC]. Skunk has 10 to 15 per cent THC. That makes it two to three times more powerful, not 20 to 30 times.”



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1560551.ece

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OfflineJ4S0N
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Luddite]
    #6712046 - 03/26/07 05:01 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Reefer Madness is back in full swing. I guess if it worked so well in the 30's, why not try it again.

Its hard to take any of this seriously when they can't even get basic facts straight about the plant.

"There are also fears that modern variants of the drug such as skunk, from the tips of the cannabis plant, are 20 to 30 times more powerful than those available 30 years ago. "

What a joke. Skunk #1 which is the original skunk has around 8% THC. No where near the levels they are talking. Plus, Skunk was first bred around 30 years ago, and is no where close to being the strongest variety. So these fools need to get their facts straight if they are going to expect people to believe them.


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"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: J4S0N]
    #6737333 - 04/02/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

lots of people don't know about these facts (or prefer not to) - they'll believe them


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Offlinemalcom43
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: elbisivni]
    #6740483 - 04/02/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It's my understanding that the cause of schiz. is unknown, and it's thought to be a cluster of conditions colloquially grouped together since the wee ages of psychiatric study. So does cannabis cause all or some, or what? Also, it seems quite obvious that the correlation, presuming its true, could be causual in the reverse, i.e. schizo's are marginalized by society and self-medicate with cannabis, a cheap and readily available pharmaceutical. Also, most 'normal' cannabis users are secretive with the general society, I would assume, and so doctor's would have a very scewed sence of who 'the dopers' are.

What I've noticed is that most doctors I've known, as well as most pre-meds, are the most unquestioning and 'nerdy' of the population- precisly thouse most likely to buy into a vague notion of cannabis-induced whatever. Obviously this is pretty worthless as evidence, but it's my perception.

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OfflinePsilopsychedelic
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: malcom43]
    #6786615 - 04/14/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

My understanding is that it's currently believed that you are born with latent Schizophrenia. It remains dormant until typically your teenage years up until mid to late twenties, and typically emerges from some sort of trigger. (I.E. a traumatic event such as a car accident, an embarassing event, loss of a loved one, or possibly getting way too high and having a panic attack.)

Be that as it may, it seems to me these numbers are so overinflated because it's probably much more common these days for a young person to get way too high then any other one of these traumatic events.


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It's a strange world. Some people get rich and others eat shit and die. - Hunter S. Thompson

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: malcom43]
    #6866233 - 05/03/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, it seems quite obvious that the correlation, presuming its true, could be causual in the reverse, i.e. schizo's are marginalized by society and self-medicate with cannabis, a cheap and readily available pharmaceutical.





:yesnod:



I believe that this plant was placed here for this reason.......to help keep the mentally ill more balanced.

Thats why you see so many people using weed today. It is a natural relaxant. With all the stress in todays world relaxing is a good thing.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: niteowl]
    #6867718 - 05/03/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thats why you see so many people using weed today. It is a natural relaxant.



except for the paranoia that probably results mostly from it being considered a criminal act :shrug:


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: elbisivni]
    #6867881 - 05/03/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I have never experienced any type of paranoia from smoking weed.

I believe that any paranoia comes from the "illegal" status of the drug. People get paranoid over the possibility of getting caugh being high......that is where the paranoia comes from ....... IMO


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: niteowl]
    #6867925 - 05/03/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I believe that any paranoia comes from the "illegal" status of the drug. People get paranoid over the possibility of getting caugh being high......that is where the paranoia comes from ....... IMO




isn't that pretty much what I said? el oh el.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Luddite]
    #6885055 - 05/07/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I just thought of something.....

If this article is true.....


Wouldn't countries that have legalized weed, have a higher concentration of schizophrenia????


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: niteowl]
    #6892370 - 05/09/07 05:32 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Wouldn't countries that have legalized weed, have a higher concentration of schizophrenia?




What you've hit on here is part of the problem. What the studies show (albeit VERY strongly) is correlation between cannabis consumption and schizophrenia. However, they do no show causation, that has been assumed to this point.

In order to show causation you'd need a study that demonstrated the following:
Cannabis users (as a group) have a higher incidence of schizophrenia than the population at large, when controlling for other factors (income, race, etc.)

Instead of demostrating that, most studies on this suject have only shown that schizophrenics have a higher level of cannabis use than the general public (usually MUCH higher, sometimes on the order of 40% according to a cross-sectional study, http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/184/2/110 ).

However, this is not sufficient to prove anything about causality. To make an analogy, the population of people who buy gasoline have a higher tendancy to own cars than the total population. Yet it's fairly obvious that buying gasoline won't make you go out and get a car.

I've never bought into the self-medication argument much, but I think there are similar arguments to be made. For example, it's fairly well demonstrated that schizophrenics tend to break the law more often than those without the condition. This fact alone could help to make up some of the difference. Once you get into personality types and backgrounds, even more ground is made up (how many obscenely wealthy schizophrenics do you see walking around?).

Of course, the problem is that it's impossible (in most countries) to accurately survey the cannabis-consuming population. Likewise, a genuine controlled experiment is out of the question, because in the event that cannabis actually does cause schizophrenia, it would be unethical to forced test subjects to take it. Additionally it's hard to diagnose schizophrenia in animals, so that's out too.

As a result, I don't like to blame the medical community, or generalize about their politics, I just think they've been dealt a very poor data set and are genuinely trying to make the best of it.

Of course, that doesn't prove a thing about whether or not cannabis actually causes schizophrenia.

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Offlinemultivitamins
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #6893256 - 05/09/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

From the age of about 14-20 I was a heavy cannabis smoker and was in a group of about 10-15 close knit friends who also heavily used cannabis.

Of these people one is now fully schizophenic- she has been sectioned several times and at her worst was doing things like taking her clothes off in public places and running around shouting at strangers.

Another was hearing voices and having very strange thoughts (he went to a psychatrist who told him to quit the weed but he could contunue taking mdma and tripping, and that if not done to exess these might actually help him. he is now pretty much better).

Probally my best friend who was the 'king stoner' in our group (20-50 bongs a day) has stopped pretty much all contact with his friends (wont answer the door, his phone or return calls), is convinced the majority of his friends hate him and spread rumours behind his back, has chronic insomnia and paranoia while just generally behaving extremmely strangely.

I am not writing this to critisise weed or its users (I still smoke it, but only at partys and stuff and not to excess) but I have seen it seriously fuck peoples heads up. A few years ago people used to tell me about its links to mental illness but I smoked it a lot and its easy to bury your head in the sand and say that its bullshit/propoganda/it wont happen to me which is pretty much what I used to think and what the majority of people on this thread are saying . Non of my non-drug using friends have ever had any mental health problems like this and it has messed up several of my weed smoking friends. I'm just about to sit my finals studying psychology and am currently 'revising' stuff on schizophrenia and it can be nasty!

"A forty one year old housewife heard a voice coming from a house across the road. The voice went on incessantly in a flat monotone describing everything she was doing with an admixture of critical comments. “She is peeling potatoes, got hold of the peeler, she does not want that potato, she is putting it back, because she thinks it has a knobble like a penis, she has a dirty mind, she is peeling potatoes, now she is washing them....”

Having that going round your head 24/7 would be a little bit of a headfuck I imagine! Have a look on the internet at some of these journals and papers about the link between weed and schizophrenia and youll see there not all goverment studies and many of them are done by serious academics and researchers. Again I just want to say Im not trying to preach or say dont smoke it, just dont bury your heads in the sand and pretend there isnt a risk!
Peace,


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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OfflinechemiKalz
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6893265 - 05/09/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:whatever::firecum::cop::nothingtoadd:


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Offlinemultivitamins
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: chemiKalz]
    #6893322 - 05/09/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Some people have posted arguing its hard to prove a link, there have been several cases of people getting high (especially by eating it) and never recovering. I was reading the paper about a young man who had been smoking it for years, ate a teenth and went clubbing and woke up in a toilet cubicle. He now thinks the BBC control his mind via radio implants in his brain and now lives in a psychiatric ward. This may be relatively uncommon but it stregthens arguments for a link, if my memory is right current thinking is that it may not cause schizophrenia but that if you are genetically pre-disposed to it, it can bring it out.


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6893392 - 05/09/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Do you have links/credible sources to backup anything you said? Where do those random quotes come from? Not to shoot the messenger, but you gotta bring more than opinion/anecdote to the table if you want to be taken seriously.


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Offlinemultivitamins
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: unbeliever]
    #6893787 - 05/09/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)
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Quote:

unbeliever said:
Do you have links/credible sources to backup anything you said? Where do those random quotes come from? Not to shoot the messenger, but you gotta bring more than opinion/anecdote to the table if you want to be taken seriously.




The quote about the woman and the voice talking about potatoes comes from a patient studied by Mellor (1970) and is cited in 'Abnormal Psychology' 5th edition by Davidson and Neale.

The story about the man who went psychotic after eating a teenth I read on the BBC website sometime in the last 18 months, you can probably find it by searching if your interested.

I’ve attached a few scientific papers as attachments for you to have a look at, for ease of reference I’ve put the references and abstracts below. I’ve put in bold, bits that may support my point. These are all taken from peer reviewed subscription only journals so they are not government propaganda, they are scientific peer accredited studies.

1/ J. van Os, M. Bak, M. Hanssen, R. V. Bijl, R. de Graaf, and H. Verdoux (2002) “Cannabis Use and Psychosis: A Longitudinal Population-based Study” American Journal of Epidemiology 156 (4)

Cannabis use may increase the risk of psychotic disorders and result in a poor prognosis for those with an established vulnerability to psychosis. A 3-year follow-up (1997–1999) is reported of a general population of 4,045 psychosis-free persons and of 59 subjects in the Netherlands with a baseline diagnosis of psychotic disorder. Substance use was assessed at baseline, 1-year follow-up, and 3-year follow-up. Baseline cannabis use predicted the presence at follow-up of any level of psychotic symptoms (adjusted odds ratio (OR) = 2.76, 95% confidence interval (CI): 1.18, 6.47), as well as a severe level of psychotic symptoms (OR = 24.17, 95% CI: 5.44, 107.46), and clinician assessment of the need for care for psychotic symptoms (OR = 12.01, 95% CI: 2.24, 64.34). The effect of baseline cannabis use was stronger than the effect at 1-year and 3-year follow-up, and more than 50% of the psychosis diagnoses could be attributed to cannabis use. On the additive scale, the effect of cannabis use was much stronger in those with a baseline diagnosis of psychotic disorder (risk difference, 54.7%) than in those without (risk difference, 2.2%; p for interaction = 0.001). Results confirm previous suggestions that
cannabis use increases the risk of both the incidence of psychosis in psychosis-free persons and a poorprognosis for those with an established vulnerability to psychotic disorder.


2/ Linszen, Don H. MD, PhD; Dingemans, Peter M. PhD; Lenior, Marie E. MA (1994) “Cannabis Abuse and the Course of Recent-Onset Schizophrenic Disorders” Journal of General Psychology 51

Objective: We sought to examine the relation between cannabis abuse and the symptomatic course of recent-onset schizophrenia and related disorders.

Design: A prospective cohort study over a year using monthly Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale assessments.

Participants: Cannabis-abusing patients (n=24) were compared with nonabusers (n=69). Eleven patients were mild and 13 were heavy cannabis-abusing patients.

Results: Significantly more and earlier psychotic relapses occurred in the cannabis-abusing group (P=.03). This association became stronger when mild and heavy cannabis abuse were distinguished (P=.002). No confounding effect of other variables, eg, other street drugs, was found. In all but one patient, cannabis abuse preceded the onset of the first psychotic symptoms for at least 1 year.

Conclusions: Cannabis abuse and particularly heavy abuse can be considered a stressor eliciting relapse in patients with schizophrenia and related disorders and possibly a premorbid precipitant.

I've found several dozen more papers showing a link and I can post you these if your intrested, can anyone show me any "links/credible sources" to back up their points that this is "goverment propoganda" and "poor science"? If so id love to see it


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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Offlinemultivitamins
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6893788 - 05/09/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)
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heres the second paper


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6896436 - 05/10/07 03:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

multivitamins said:
From the age of about 14-20 I was a heavy cannabis smoker and was in a group of about 10-15 close knit friends who also heavily used cannabis.



Please don't take this the wrong way, but your group of friends isn't representative of anything because it isn't controlled for anything.

Consider the following analogy: Tim has several friends, all of whom began using alcohol sparingly in 9th grade. Tim didn't start till 11th. When they all get to 12th grade, Tim is the only one who goes on to college.

At first it's tempting to say that alcohol consumption at an early age is the clear cause of Tim's friends not going. However, when you then learn that Tim's family is the only one who could afford college, the entire situation changes, and it becomes clear that alcohol probably had nothing to do with his friends' college prospects.

The trick with proving cannabis causes schizophrenia is that you have to rule out other factors which could link the two. Tim and his friends were linked by alcohol and friendship, but not by socio-economic status. That was the key difference.

Unfortunately it is presently nearly impossible to rule out other factors because few know exactly what causes schizophrenia in the first place. Perhaps you and your friends all had personalities that were predisposed to schizophrenia and like personalities attracted creating friendship (I'm not trying to insult you, please don't take it that way, in reality I don't even know you, I'm just trying to make a point). Similarly, as you probably all lived close to each other (being friends and all), demographic and socio-economic factors might have also contributed. Simply put: I'm sure you all shared many things beyond simply cannabis consumption.

I personally resent the implication (as you replied to my post) that I am making generalizations about "the government". I cited a paper above, which I will also quote below, that specifically states that a causal relationship between cannabis and schizophrenia is assumed but at this time cannot be proven. Careful analysis of the paper you posted states this as well. Quoting from page one of that paper:

Quote:

It is unclear whether subjects with incipient psychosis use cannabis to self-medicate their psychotic symptoms or, conversely, whether exposure to cannabis is a risk factor for onset of psychosis (6, 7).




Similarly, looking at the paper I linked in my above post, the abstract states:

Quote:

On an individual level, cannabis use confers an overall twofold increase in the relative risk for later schizophrenia. At the population level, elimination of cannabis use would reduce the incidence of schizophrenia by approximately 8%, assuming a causal relationship. Cannabis use appears to be neither a sufficient nor a necessary cause for psychosis. It is a component cause, part of a complex constellation of factors leading to psychosis.




This paper was a literature review of many others, including the one you linked, the goal of which was reporting on medical consensus. And that consensus is that causation must be assumed because it has not been proven.

In order to prove cannabis causes schizophrenia (as I already described above), you would need to compare the incidence of schizophrenia in the cannabis using population with that of the general population, controlling for other factors (i.e. compare rich cannabis users to rich non users, poor to poor, black to black, white to white, etc.). This has not been done.

This isn't about "the gov't being full of shit" or "it won't happen to me" this is about statistics 101 and responsible academic research. Demonstrating causality is hard to do, I should know because I have worked part-time as a research assistant during the past 2 years. However, until you do demonstrate it, it is irresponsible to report as though you have (which is essentially what's going on here).

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Offlinemultivitamins
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #6896606 - 05/10/07 05:57 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

So there is no need to be enviromentally friendly as we can't proove a causal link between pollution, global warming and rising sea levels?


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6896795 - 05/10/07 07:39 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

multivitamins said:
So there is no need to be enviromentally friendly as we can't proove a causal link between pollution, global warming and rising sea levels?




That's cute, but the standard of proof is different. There's no question that melting ice has to go *somewhere*. You don't have to show correlation between melting glaciers and rising sea levels because you can run a controlled experiment where you melt ice that is floating in water and see how often it magically disappears vs. how often it increases the water level.

What I'm looking for is a study similar to the landmark 1954 British Doctors' Study that proved the link between smoking and lung cancer. (you can see the study here: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/328/7455/1529 )

As the study states at its opening, prior studies had only demonstrated an "association" between smoking and lung cancer without proving that the one caused the other. In order to prove that smoking caused lung cancer, they state that it was necessary to first group a known category of individuals with similar habits (they chose medical doctors in England) into smokers and non-smokers. They then compared the incidence of lung cancer developing midst doctors that smoked against the incidence in the doctors that did not smoke.

Note that this is completely different from merely looking at everyone with lung cancer and seeing how many of them smoked, which is the methodology that was used in the previous studies into lung cancer and is the same methodology being used in the cannabis-schizophrenia studies of today.

This is the standard of proof necessary to show causality, and the medical profession has known it since 1954. Is it so much to ask that this same standard be applied to any possible link between cannabis and schizophrenia?

Find me a study that compares the rates of schizophrenia in the cannabis-consuming subset of a population that shares a common background with the rate of schizophrenia in the non-cannabis-consuming subset of the same population and I'll agree that it's made a statement about correlation. The medical community felt this was necessary to link smoking and lung cancer, I see no reason why this is any different.

Edited by Economist (05/10/07 07:46 AM)

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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #6898127 - 05/10/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That's cute, but the standard of proof is different. There's no question that melting ice has to go *somewhere*. You don't have to show correlation between melting glaciers and rising sea levels because you can run a controlled experiment where you melt ice that is floating in water and see how often it magically disappears vs. how often it increases the water level.




That's cute, but what about the statement "pollution and CO2 emmisions are responsble for global warming", its widely accepted as fact but it can't be scientifically shown. As with cannabis-schizophrenia their are uncontrolled independant variables that might account for the varience in the data. Just becuase something can't be scientifically shown it doesnt mean its not true. You saying that "you can show correlation between glaciers melting and rising sea levels" is like me saying "you can show abnormal dopeamine levels and neurochemistry in schizophrenics"- it doesnt get to the cause. Linking the method of action to the effect is relatively easy, its linking in the cause (whether it be cannabis or carbon dioxide) to the effect (mental illness or rising sea levels) that is the hard part to show scientifically.

In one of your posts you said you resented the implication I implied you were burying your head in the sand and blaming the goverment. That wasnt aimed at you, more at posts like
Quote:

Reefer Madness is back in full swing. I guess if it worked so well in the 30's, why not try it again.


.

It is my personal opinion that there is a link between cannabis and schizophrenia and admitedly a lot of this is based on anecdotal evidence and my personal experiences. Out of interest do you beleive that there is absolutely no link between the weed and mental health or are you arguing from a scientific standpoint on hypothesis testing and research methods?

I never set out to try and proove there was a link, the only reason i posted in this thread was because of mild annoyance at comments like the reefer madness analogy as in my opinion that is a cop out argument .

Im quite busy at the momment but I'm going to have a look and see if i can find a paper such as the smoking 1954 one later


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6900696 - 05/11/07 04:53 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

multivitamins said:
That's cute, but what about the statement "pollution and CO2 emmisions are responsble for global warming", its widely accepted as fact but it can't be scientifically shown.



I didn't want to get into this too much, for fear of going off topic, but here's my take:
It's about externalities. While the scientific community is united in their belief that global warming is happening, they are pretty evenly divided as to how much of it is caused by human action. I'm not talking about the far-right, or the oil-company-funded think-tanks, but most climatologists genuinely admit that at least some amount of climate change (I recall reading in National Geographic a year ago that approximately 50% of temperature change is the prevalent level in computer models) is naturally occuring.

The argument then becomes, if it's happening naturally, and we all agree that it's bad, then shouldn't we take any actions that could minimize an already naturally occuring phenomenon. A good analogy would be the difference between living in a hurricane-proof house vs. a tent if you're moving to Florida. Much of the damage from a hurricane is naturally occuring and not preventable, but if you could take steps to protect yourself, why not?

The link between cannabis and schizophrenia, however, is different simply because the damage of schizophrenia will never happen to the vast majority of cannabis users. Everyone on the planet Earth experiences climate change, everyone in Florida experiences hurricanes, very few people who use cannabis experience schizophrenia.

Quote:

multivitamins said:
Out of interest do you believe that there is absolutely no link between the weed and mental health or are you arguing from a scientific standpoint on hypothesis testing and research methods?



Personally, I think that a link between cannabis and schizophrenia is unlikely.

The reason for this is that similar links have been made between schizophrenia and alcohol or cocaine abuse (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/148/2/224) and some studies have suggested that ANY substance abuse is a factor in relapse (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC2-3VYTNBB-15&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F1996&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e23ca622101f1f463fde867145d4ebd9) The plethora of research about cannabis has mostly come about because it was recently decriminalized in Britain. However, analysis of the numbers shows that alcohol is about as likely to be consumed (in an abusive manner) by schizophrenics as cannabis is.

I probably don't have to tell anyone here that all psychoactive substances have WILDLY different effects on the brain, and I find it highly unlikely that all of these different effects would result in the same outcome (schizophrenia).

What I find more likely is that some aspect of schizophrenic personalities makes a person more likely to use psychoactive substances in general.

I must admit, however, that I am quite jealous and that fuels part of my reaction. I think I posted earlier in this thread that I work part-time as a research assitant for a professor of economics. Anyway, in order to publish an economics research paper you have to produce far more austere statistical work than any of the "hard sciences", mostly (IMO) because people don't like the idea that economics can predict their behavior and want to be "extra sure".

Simply put, if we had turned in any of the studies posted above to an economics journal, they would be rejected with a note from the editorial board that we had only shown causation, and would we please re-submit when we had evidence of correlation. Hence my jealousy.

Quote:

multivitamins said:
Im quite busy at the momment but I'm going to have a look and see if i can find a paper such as the smoking 1954 one later



That's just it, the papers I've been able to find (I've looked too) all suggest that this kind of study is too difficult to accomplish on cannabis with any degree of certainty under the current legal regimes in most countries.

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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #6912869 - 05/14/07 06:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Im in the Legalise Cannabis Alliance Mailings list and got this today which seems relevant:

British Study Doubts Marijuana Causes schizophrenia-like psychosis

Source: BBS News
Date: May 13 2007

---
Marijuana Science and Health Briefs

IACM via BBSNews 2007-05-13 -- British scientists analysed symptoms of 757 subjects, who developed schizophrenia, of whom 182 (24 per cent) had used cannabis in the year prior to first presentation to a psychiatrist due to the disease. There were no significant differences in the symptoms between cannabis users and non-users that have been observed in some small studies. In addition, cannabis users who developed schizophrenia had no greater family history of schizophrenia. The authors concluded that this "argues against a distinct schizophrenia-like psychosis caused by cannabis."

(Source: Boydell J, et al. Schizophr Res 2007 Apr 24; [Electronic publication ahead of print])

Pancreatitis

Researchers of the University of Heidelberg, Germany, found that patients with acute inflammation of the pancreas (pancreatitis) showed elevated levels of cannabinoid receptors and endocannabinoids in the pancreas. In studies with mice with pancreatitis a cannabinoid that as THC binds to CB1 and CB2 receptors reduced pain and inflammation of the disease.

(Source: Michalski CW, et al. Gastroenterology 2007;132(5):1968-78.)

THC in sweat

In a study with 11 daily cannabis users THC was detectable in the sweat of all subjects above a concentration of 1 ng/ml in the first week after abstinence. In the second week their sweat was positive in eight of eleven subjects and one participant produced THC positive sweat patches for four weeks after abstinence. Daily oral doses of up to 14.8 mg THC caused no positive sweat test above a concentration of 1 ng/ml.

(Source: Huestis MA, et al. Forensic Sci Int 2007 May 2; [Electronic publication ahead of print])

Vomiting by cannabis

The article describes a case of vomiting caused by regular cannabis use. This rare condition is characterized by regular cannabis use, cyclic vomiting and compulsive bathing behaviours.

(Source: Wallace D, et al. Australas Psychiatry 2007;15(2):156-8.)

Schizophrenia and cognition

German researchers compared cognitive performance of 39 schizophrenic patients (19 cannabis-users and 20 non-users) and 39 healthy controls (18 cannabis-users, 21 non-users). On the whole, schizophrenic patients performed worse than healthy control subjects. Regular cannabis use prior to the first psychotic episode improved cognition in some tests. On the other hand, cannabis use deteriorated test performance in healthy controls, especially in cases when regular consumption started before the age of 17.

(Source: Jockers-Scherubl MC, et al. Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 2007 Mar 16; [Electronic publication ahead of print])

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070513134322800


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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #7236757 - 07/29/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)



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"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #7242156 - 07/31/07 01:22 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

The problem I have with the new study is that it still has not addressed my initial issue: the same link can be found between cocaine and psychosis, alcohol and psychosis, methamphetamine and psychosis, and heroin and psychosis.

So what's more likely, that all of these drugs which react with brain chemistry in radically different ways all have the same outcome, or that something in the brain of potential-psychotics causes them to be more likely to take drugs in the first place?

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Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #7242443 - 07/31/07 04:27 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
The problem I have with the new study is that it still has not addressed my initial issue: the same link can be found between cocaine and psychosis, alcohol and psychosis, methamphetamine and psychosis, and heroin and psychosis.




don't forget cats

http://www.medicineonline.com/news/12/464/Toxoplasmosis-Linked-to-Schizophrenia-Risk.html


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #7297343 - 08/15/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So what's more likely, that all of these drugs which react with brain chemistry in radically different ways all have the same outcome, or that something in the brain of potential-psychotics causes them to be more likely to take drugs in the first place?




Bingo!


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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