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Offlinemultivitamins
James
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Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 58
Loc: NW England, UK
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #6898127 - 05/10/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That's cute, but the standard of proof is different. There's no question that melting ice has to go *somewhere*. You don't have to show correlation between melting glaciers and rising sea levels because you can run a controlled experiment where you melt ice that is floating in water and see how often it magically disappears vs. how often it increases the water level.




That's cute, but what about the statement "pollution and CO2 emmisions are responsble for global warming", its widely accepted as fact but it can't be scientifically shown. As with cannabis-schizophrenia their are uncontrolled independant variables that might account for the varience in the data. Just becuase something can't be scientifically shown it doesnt mean its not true. You saying that "you can show correlation between glaciers melting and rising sea levels" is like me saying "you can show abnormal dopeamine levels and neurochemistry in schizophrenics"- it doesnt get to the cause. Linking the method of action to the effect is relatively easy, its linking in the cause (whether it be cannabis or carbon dioxide) to the effect (mental illness or rising sea levels) that is the hard part to show scientifically.

In one of your posts you said you resented the implication I implied you were burying your head in the sand and blaming the goverment. That wasnt aimed at you, more at posts like
Quote:

Reefer Madness is back in full swing. I guess if it worked so well in the 30's, why not try it again.


.

It is my personal opinion that there is a link between cannabis and schizophrenia and admitedly a lot of this is based on anecdotal evidence and my personal experiences. Out of interest do you beleive that there is absolutely no link between the weed and mental health or are you arguing from a scientific standpoint on hypothesis testing and research methods?

I never set out to try and proove there was a link, the only reason i posted in this thread was because of mild annoyance at comments like the reefer madness analogy as in my opinion that is a cop out argument .

Im quite busy at the momment but I'm going to have a look and see if i can find a paper such as the smoking 1954 one later


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #6900696 - 05/11/07 04:53 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

multivitamins said:
That's cute, but what about the statement "pollution and CO2 emmisions are responsble for global warming", its widely accepted as fact but it can't be scientifically shown.



I didn't want to get into this too much, for fear of going off topic, but here's my take:
It's about externalities. While the scientific community is united in their belief that global warming is happening, they are pretty evenly divided as to how much of it is caused by human action. I'm not talking about the far-right, or the oil-company-funded think-tanks, but most climatologists genuinely admit that at least some amount of climate change (I recall reading in National Geographic a year ago that approximately 50% of temperature change is the prevalent level in computer models) is naturally occuring.

The argument then becomes, if it's happening naturally, and we all agree that it's bad, then shouldn't we take any actions that could minimize an already naturally occuring phenomenon. A good analogy would be the difference between living in a hurricane-proof house vs. a tent if you're moving to Florida. Much of the damage from a hurricane is naturally occuring and not preventable, but if you could take steps to protect yourself, why not?

The link between cannabis and schizophrenia, however, is different simply because the damage of schizophrenia will never happen to the vast majority of cannabis users. Everyone on the planet Earth experiences climate change, everyone in Florida experiences hurricanes, very few people who use cannabis experience schizophrenia.

Quote:

multivitamins said:
Out of interest do you believe that there is absolutely no link between the weed and mental health or are you arguing from a scientific standpoint on hypothesis testing and research methods?



Personally, I think that a link between cannabis and schizophrenia is unlikely.

The reason for this is that similar links have been made between schizophrenia and alcohol or cocaine abuse (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/148/2/224) and some studies have suggested that ANY substance abuse is a factor in relapse (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC2-3VYTNBB-15&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F1996&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e23ca622101f1f463fde867145d4ebd9) The plethora of research about cannabis has mostly come about because it was recently decriminalized in Britain. However, analysis of the numbers shows that alcohol is about as likely to be consumed (in an abusive manner) by schizophrenics as cannabis is.

I probably don't have to tell anyone here that all psychoactive substances have WILDLY different effects on the brain, and I find it highly unlikely that all of these different effects would result in the same outcome (schizophrenia).

What I find more likely is that some aspect of schizophrenic personalities makes a person more likely to use psychoactive substances in general.

I must admit, however, that I am quite jealous and that fuels part of my reaction. I think I posted earlier in this thread that I work part-time as a research assitant for a professor of economics. Anyway, in order to publish an economics research paper you have to produce far more austere statistical work than any of the "hard sciences", mostly (IMO) because people don't like the idea that economics can predict their behavior and want to be "extra sure".

Simply put, if we had turned in any of the studies posted above to an economics journal, they would be rejected with a note from the editorial board that we had only shown causation, and would we please re-submit when we had evidence of correlation. Hence my jealousy.

Quote:

multivitamins said:
Im quite busy at the momment but I'm going to have a look and see if i can find a paper such as the smoking 1954 one later



That's just it, the papers I've been able to find (I've looked too) all suggest that this kind of study is too difficult to accomplish on cannabis with any degree of certainty under the current legal regimes in most countries.

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Offlinemultivitamins
James
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Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 58
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #6912869 - 05/14/07 06:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Im in the Legalise Cannabis Alliance Mailings list and got this today which seems relevant:

British Study Doubts Marijuana Causes schizophrenia-like psychosis

Source: BBS News
Date: May 13 2007

---
Marijuana Science and Health Briefs

IACM via BBSNews 2007-05-13 -- British scientists analysed symptoms of 757 subjects, who developed schizophrenia, of whom 182 (24 per cent) had used cannabis in the year prior to first presentation to a psychiatrist due to the disease. There were no significant differences in the symptoms between cannabis users and non-users that have been observed in some small studies. In addition, cannabis users who developed schizophrenia had no greater family history of schizophrenia. The authors concluded that this "argues against a distinct schizophrenia-like psychosis caused by cannabis."

(Source: Boydell J, et al. Schizophr Res 2007 Apr 24; [Electronic publication ahead of print])

Pancreatitis

Researchers of the University of Heidelberg, Germany, found that patients with acute inflammation of the pancreas (pancreatitis) showed elevated levels of cannabinoid receptors and endocannabinoids in the pancreas. In studies with mice with pancreatitis a cannabinoid that as THC binds to CB1 and CB2 receptors reduced pain and inflammation of the disease.

(Source: Michalski CW, et al. Gastroenterology 2007;132(5):1968-78.)

THC in sweat

In a study with 11 daily cannabis users THC was detectable in the sweat of all subjects above a concentration of 1 ng/ml in the first week after abstinence. In the second week their sweat was positive in eight of eleven subjects and one participant produced THC positive sweat patches for four weeks after abstinence. Daily oral doses of up to 14.8 mg THC caused no positive sweat test above a concentration of 1 ng/ml.

(Source: Huestis MA, et al. Forensic Sci Int 2007 May 2; [Electronic publication ahead of print])

Vomiting by cannabis

The article describes a case of vomiting caused by regular cannabis use. This rare condition is characterized by regular cannabis use, cyclic vomiting and compulsive bathing behaviours.

(Source: Wallace D, et al. Australas Psychiatry 2007;15(2):156-8.)

Schizophrenia and cognition

German researchers compared cognitive performance of 39 schizophrenic patients (19 cannabis-users and 20 non-users) and 39 healthy controls (18 cannabis-users, 21 non-users). On the whole, schizophrenic patients performed worse than healthy control subjects. Regular cannabis use prior to the first psychotic episode improved cognition in some tests. On the other hand, cannabis use deteriorated test performance in healthy controls, especially in cases when regular consumption started before the age of 17.

(Source: Jockers-Scherubl MC, et al. Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 2007 Mar 16; [Electronic publication ahead of print])

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070513134322800


--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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Offlinemultivitamins
James
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Registered: 05/07/07
Posts: 58
Loc: NW England, UK
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #7236757 - 07/29/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
"She was able, prompt, strict and intelligent. She welcomed responsibility and kept her head in every crisis. She was an adult and self-reliant, and there was nothing she needed from anyone. Yossarian took pity and decided to help her"- Catch 22

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
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Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: multivitamins]
    #7242156 - 07/31/07 01:22 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

The problem I have with the new study is that it still has not addressed my initial issue: the same link can be found between cocaine and psychosis, alcohol and psychosis, methamphetamine and psychosis, and heroin and psychosis.

So what's more likely, that all of these drugs which react with brain chemistry in radically different ways all have the same outcome, or that something in the brain of potential-psychotics causes them to be more likely to take drugs in the first place?

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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #7242443 - 07/31/07 04:27 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
The problem I have with the new study is that it still has not addressed my initial issue: the same link can be found between cocaine and psychosis, alcohol and psychosis, methamphetamine and psychosis, and heroin and psychosis.




don't forget cats

http://www.medicineonline.com/news/12/464/Toxoplasmosis-Linked-to-Schizophrenia-Risk.html


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Scientists warn of cannabis ‘timebomb’ [Re: Economist]
    #7297343 - 08/15/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So what's more likely, that all of these drugs which react with brain chemistry in radically different ways all have the same outcome, or that something in the brain of potential-psychotics causes them to be more likely to take drugs in the first place?




Bingo!


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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