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 Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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 Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ?  [Re: Viveka]
#6703333 - 03/23/07 02:20 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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What kind of 'evidence' are you after?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6703483 - 03/23/07 03:07 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said:
What kind of 'evidence' are you after?
Any thing that can be shown to prove that nothing else could be the cause besides past life karma. The idea of karma from past lives is surely subjective and unproveable.;) As I said in another post, this belief is no different then Fivepointers or mine. Subjective guessing or wishing based on who we are into at the moment. "What the thinker thinks, the prover proves."
Edited by Icelander (03/23/07 06:47 PM)
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 Viveka
refutation bias
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6703506 - 03/23/07 03:12 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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Oh I don't know, even the slightest thread of an indication that:
a: Reincarnation even occurs at all
b. If it does occur, that there is somehow a system for assuring that everyone gets their due
You're the one making the claim that cyclical karma explains why and where suffering occurs so I'd assume you'd know just what sort of evidence to provide.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Viveka]
#6703572 - 03/23/07 03:29 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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you're asking the wrong questions.
one cannot prove that which one already knows for certain.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Viveka]
#6703579 - 03/23/07 03:30 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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There is much circumstantial evidence out there. If you really wanted to do some research in the subject, you'd find many examples. But of course, these are just people's experiences, and are no more verifiable than yours or mine. We shouldn't take it on faith, but if we really look carefully at our lives, and develop some awareness and clarity, the truth of karmic causation becomes pretty evident. But maybe you haven't even done enough research to know what karma means fully yet. So perhaps thats a good place to start.
Anyways, here is a link so an article about rebirth.
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud10.htm
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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 03:43 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Icelander]
#6703609 - 03/23/07 03:36 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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Maybe Sinbad sees this as an objective truth 
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6703622 - 03/23/07 03:39 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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As science would explain it, objective truths are those which are verifiable by third party analysis. As this is a truth that one can only discover in ones own experience, it is subjective in nature.
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Trepiodos
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6703687 - 03/23/07 03:55 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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Karmic cycles are not a subjective truth. A subjective truth would be me saying that, "I love my wife."
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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Trepiodos]
#6703698 - 03/23/07 03:58 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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If you remember clearly having past lives, dying and being reborn, then it is a subjective truth.
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Viveka
refutation bias
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6703793 - 03/23/07 04:33 PM (17 years, 29 days ago) |
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Ok, we are more likely to be on a similar page if we are distinguishing between rebirth and transmigration, as the link you provided does. Transmigration is self-centered poppycock, whereas rebirth is a more elegant, open-ended concept.
However, I still think it is a misleading over-simplification, if not mere wordplay, to state "Seemingly bad things happen to people due to the fruition of accumulated non-virtuous actions". Because "bad" all depends on the values of the individual. If Stephen Hawkings only wanted to play basketball, he'd have a pretty shitty lot, as far as his subjective truth is concerned. But since he endeavors to speculate about the Universe, perhaps his lot was in some ways a blessing. If the only value you take into account is pure physical prowess, than someone born with a degenerative disease has had a bad thing happen to them. But if you consider the adaptive and dynamic nature of the human experience, things aren't so clear.
Also, I agree with the concept of causality. But not in a dogmatic sense wherein an individuals deeds follow them into a next life. But apparently neither of us believe that. Causality couldn't be more simple. If a rock falls from a cliff far above and I am standing below, I'm toast. Then there are the more subtle chains of effect that are no less effective. However, I can't fully embrace the concept of dependent arising. True, dependent origination may set up a condition, such as my physical human vessel with a certain disposition. But using this vessel, I can create another condition that is not in any way directly linked to the conditions that created this body. I could choose to paint my walls red, but how is that condition dependent on everything else? It's almost as though dependent arising is an equivalent philosophy to no free will. If everything happens because of conditions that already exist, how does choice come into effect?
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Trepiodos
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6703966 - 03/23/07 06:17 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said:
If you remember clearly having past lives, dying and being reborn, then it is a subjective truth.
The subjective truth would be that you have memories (or what you interpret as memories) of past lives. It does not follow that you have actually had past lives. Just as it is the subjective truth that I have had feelings and experiences that I have memories of specific situations as I encountered them (deja vu). It is not necessarily a truth (subjective or otherwise) that I actually had foreknowledge or memories of the situations in question. Do you see the difference?
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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6704046 - 03/23/07 06:49 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Maybe Sinbad sees this as an objective truth
as science would explain it, objective truths are those which are verifiable by third party analysis.
Thank you Sinbad.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Trepiodos]
#6704099 - 03/23/07 07:11 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Trepiodos said:
Quote:
Sinbad said:
If you remember clearly having past lives, dying and being reborn, then it is a subjective truth.
The subjective truth would be that you have memories (or what you interpret as memories) of past lives. It does not follow that you have actually had past lives. Just as it is the subjective truth that I have had feelings and experiences that I have memories of specific situations as I encountered them (deja vu). It is not necessarily a truth (subjective or otherwise) that I actually had foreknowledge or memories of the situations in question. Do you see the difference?
IMO it depends whether you are coming from a perspective of ignorance or realization, as per the Buddhist terminology. Coming from a perspective of realization, one could not only remember, but recall clearly and precisely, without a doubt that this was so. Coming from a perspective of ignorance, it would just be the same as remembering any other experience, colored by our conditioned perceptions.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/25/07 08:15 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6704155 - 03/23/07 07:22 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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That's really funny. The Buddhist's say if you believe as them you are not in ignorance. How unusual for a religion to say such a thing.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Icelander]
#6704182 - 03/23/07 07:29 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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Nope, they don't say that if you don't believe in them you are ignorant. In fact they say that if your beliefs about rebirth are founded upon hazy recollections, such as those from hypnosis, then that is the result of ignorance obscurations. This is what i was saying.
Arhats who realize Nirvana cannot be said to be ignorant, but they do not necessarily remember past lives either. It is not necessary in Buddhism for you to believe anything on blind faith. But that doesn't mean you also reject things because they don't gel with your 'intuitions' either. That would be considered 'ignorant' in the western idea of the word.
Remember that ignorance in Buddhism has very different connotation than the usual western term has, so don't be ignorant, and look up the term ignorance before you leap. 
Anyways, what i said in the previous post was my own POV and not necessarily one held by all Buddhists or Buddhism at large. Taking what i said out of context for your own amusement is a little disrespectful.
I personally do believe that the accounts of the Buddha realizing all of his past lives, are true. There are different kinds of realization, and what i meant by 'realization' in my other post, is what is equated to the full realization of the Buddha. Logic, reasoning and personal experience of the validity of the Buddha's path forms the basis of my belief in this.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/23/07 08:05 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Brainiac]
#6704225 - 03/23/07 07:40 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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Know that...
Bad thing happen to Good people.
Bad things happen to Bad people.
Good things happen to Good people.
Good things Happen to Bad people.
Shit happens.
Bad shit happens.
Good shit happens.
"...That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:45
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Viveka
refutation bias
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#6704378 - 03/23/07 08:31 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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There are no good people.
There are no bad people.
There are people.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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 Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Viveka]
#6704792 - 03/23/07 10:52 PM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Brainiac]
#6705867 - 03/24/07 09:33 AM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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because shit happens.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Why do bad things in life, happen to good people ? [Re: Sinbad]
#6706114 - 03/24/07 11:25 AM (17 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
I personally do believe that the accounts of the Buddha realizing all of his past lives, are true.
Isn't this a bit like taking all of the Bible stories about Jesus as true...or believing in the Easter Bunny? Santa Claus, of course, is real...so don't fuck with him.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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