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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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 Subjective vs. Objective 
#6688424 - 03/19/07 06:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The application of these terms seems to be a frequent source of friction in this forum. For the record:
Subjective(pertinent definition): Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world.
Objective(pertinent definition): Having actual existence or reality.
If you cannot possibly prove, demonstrate, show, photograph, videotape or otherwise externally manifest your experience, then it is, by definition, subjective.
You may firmly believe that your subjective experience reflects objective reality, and you might be correct. However, until and unless it exists outside of your mind, you cannot accurately claim it as objective fact.
Likewise, you cannot state with any degree of certainty that someone else's subjective experience is lesser than your subjective experience. The only claim you can make is that you prefer your version of reality.
To claim a preference amongst subjective versions of reality is perfectly respectable, and, in fact, the very basis of philosophy. 
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Veritas]
#6688499 - 03/19/07 06:41 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fer sure
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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toastdth
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Veritas]
#6688503 - 03/19/07 06:41 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The argument is that everything is subjective since we cannot precisely define reality is flawed; there is obviously a shared set of objects we all appear to interact with. It is true that we cannot know, for sure, anything. But we can know with a great deal of certainty, minimizing and mitigating the nihilistic element to the measurement of the world around us.
This is where observation and theory intersect; we are experiencing something. We experiment with it, to determine its nature. What "it" is, exactly, is almost of no importance, except to philosophers and art students. For the vast majority folks stuck experiencing it, what you can and cannot do with the world around you is what matters, and is the core of "objective" versus "subjective."
We do not have to even be right; we use Newton's gravity and classical physics every day to make highly accurate predictions as to what will happen, even though it is not "correct." This is what is objective; what actually happens, despite philosophical ranting and raving. Despite nihilism, despite religion, despite people's viewpoints on what reality is. Things happen, and they happen to you and I. Things happen in a predictable way; this is the core of objective measurement and analysis.
Gravity is pretty objective for most the world we can interact with; I can tell you you are going to be stuck to the ground, and no matter what you think, believe, do, or say, gravity is going to act on you, and I can predict that.
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: toastdth]
#6688516 - 03/19/07 06:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The argument is that everything is subjective since we cannot precisely define reality is flawed; there is obviously a shared set of objects we all appear to interact with. It is true that we cannot know, for sure, anything. But we can know with a great deal of certainty, minimizing and mitigating the nihilistic element to the measurement of the world around us.
The original poster never said that everything is subjective. Re-read and try again.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 MarkostheGnostic
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 Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Veritas]
#6688527 - 03/19/07 06:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sonja: Boris, Let me show you how absurd your position is. Let's say there is no God, and each man is free to do exactly as he chooses.What prevents you from murdering somebody?
Boris: Murder's immoral.
Sonja: Immorality is subjective.
Boris: Yes, but subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Not in a rational scheme of perception.
Boris: Perception is irrational. It implies imminence.
Sonja: But judgment of any system of phenomena exists in any rational, metaphysical or epistemological contradiction to an abstracted empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself.
Boris: Yeah, I've said that many times.
From the film 'Love and Death' by Woody Allen
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toastdth
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6688528 - 03/19/07 06:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
The argument is that everything is subjective since we cannot precisely define reality is flawed; there is obviously a shared set of objects we all appear to interact with. It is true that we cannot know, for sure, anything. But we can know with a great deal of certainty, minimizing and mitigating the nihilistic element to the measurement of the world around us.
The original poster never said that everything is subjective. Re-read and try again.
I was adding my two cents. Not quite sure how I should try again, as I still have the same thoughts on the subject. The OP seemed to be venting on an issue near and dear to me, and I wanted to express my own feelings without opening another thread.
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: toastdth]
#6688664 - 03/19/07 07:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nothing wrong with adding ones two cents if it is an accurate representation of what the origional poster actually said. You put words into her post that she did not say. That's where the trouble lies. 
Objective(pertinent definition): Having actual existence or reality.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/19/07 07:17 PM)
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toastdth
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6688720 - 03/19/07 07:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't see myself as responding to the original post, rather, adding my experiences about people's confusion regarding what is subjective versus objective.
If it reads as though I'm responding directly, I apologize, as that was not my intent. I have an awful habit of writing "you" and leaving it ambiguous.
What I was saying was related, but not a direct response, nor meant to challenge/offend the OP.
The same people who confuse what is subjective/objective, then parade their version of spirituality around, tend to be the same people who argue with modern science's understanding of physics, which is what I was adding on (though not as clear as I had intended).
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redgreenvines
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: toastdth]
#6688776 - 03/19/07 07:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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we can't predict every earth quake or meteor, so prophetc accuracy is not the right measure of objective reality.
jamming consensual reality into aphysical model is a good direction, but both subjective and ojective reality depend upon unqualified data collection.
in subjective reality it means that fresh accepting attitude of fragments before you interpret them, and the same goes for objective reality.
often situaions congeal that don't fit existing patterns/expectations.
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 _  🧠_ 
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cellardoor
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wouldn't everything be subjective then, since all that we take in to be our reality is processed in the mind?
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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: cellardoor]
#6688969 - 03/19/07 08:17 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not by the posters definition. Objective exists in external reality. I see a tree and you see a tree therefore we agree (rhyme:D)
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Veritas]
#6689037 - 03/19/07 08:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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There is no objective experience in my estimation. Objectivity is merely an agreement between people about the commonalities of their experience, but that is still subjective.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Silversoul
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689048 - 03/19/07 08:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
There is no objective experience in my estimation. Objectivity is merely an agreement between people about the commonalities of their experience, but that is still subjective.
Indeed. The closest we usually get to objective is inter-subjective. The only thing that we know for sure exists objectively is our subjective experience.
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wilshire
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689068 - 03/19/07 08:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Objectivity is merely an agreement between people about the commonalities of their experience, but that is still subjective.
if you and i agree that sam cooke was a great musician, yes, it's subjective.
it's a different thing for us to say that he existed, or that he had black hair or was a male. these things are objective facts.
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689081 - 03/19/07 08:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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No! You are confusing the flaws of perception with true subjectivity. It's only subjective if it occurs only within your mind, by definition. Look to the original intent of the poster. What you are doing is subjectively interpreting the term objectivity.
(Which by the way is why she made this post in the first place);)
Edited by Icelander (03/19/07 08:44 PM)
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wilshire
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6689092 - 03/19/07 08:44 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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of course all of our experiences are subjective. that's given practically by the definitions. this is not a revelation. it does not follow from this that objective reality does not exist or that we cannot observe it (subjectively).
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6689102 - 03/19/07 08:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
It's only subjective if it occurs only within your mind, by definition.
Everything occurs within the mind.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689110 - 03/19/07 08:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
It's only subjective if it occurs only within your mind, by definition.
Everything occurs within the mind.
Whos mind? or Prove it.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: wilshire]
#6689118 - 03/19/07 08:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cogito ergo sum <---Only objective fact.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6689119 - 03/19/07 08:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Prove it.
You can't. That is why it is subjective. Even quantum physics recognizes that there is no truly objective experience.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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wilshire
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689144 - 03/19/07 08:55 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Everything occurs within the mind.
do you believe that i exist outside of your mind?
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689147 - 03/19/07 08:56 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bogus reasoning. Just because you can't prove it doesn't make everything outside of oneself non existent. There could be an objective reality very easily whether you can tell it or not. And so again I say, prove that everything is subjective.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6689171 - 03/19/07 08:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't say that it doesn't exist...I said that it is subjective. In my reality subjective experience is real.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689200 - 03/19/07 09:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
I didn't say that it doesn't exist...I said that it is subjective. In my reality subjective experience is real.
Then you're off topic. That's not what this thread was about.;)
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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wilshire
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689212 - 03/19/07 09:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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no
are you inventing this conversation? do you know what i will say before i say it? where are these words coming from?
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6689216 - 03/19/07 09:08 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Threads can wander,...but in any case I am not interested in disputing anything...I was just stating my opinion...which IS relevant to the thread. My will to argue something I know to be true in my subjective experience is not there. Good night.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Silversoul
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: wilshire]
#6689226 - 03/19/07 09:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
no
are you inventing this conversation? do you know what i will say before i say it? where are these words coming from?
Perhaps you are a computer program designed with artificial intelligence. Perhaps there are electrodes inserted into my brain to create an illusion that I mistake for reality. Perhaps a demon is deluding me. Any of these are possible. The only thing I cannot doubt is that I am experiencing something.
Descartes, FTW!
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Silversoul]
#6689235 - 03/19/07 09:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
a demon is deluding me
That is how I usually explain the actions and words of so-called other people.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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toastdth
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689254 - 03/19/07 09:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Even quantum physics recognizes that there is no truly objective experience.
I was unfamiliar with this tenet of quantum physics. My understanding is that quantum physics deals very heavily with what is real, in a primal, fundamental way.
Would you elaborate on the specific parts of quantum theory that delve into objective/subjective experience?
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6689268 - 03/19/07 09:17 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Go to bed.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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kaiowas
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6690478 - 03/20/07 03:02 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
It's only subjective if it occurs only within your mind, by definition.
Everything occurs within the mind.
One sentence can say a lot. In order to get a better understanding, I'll tell you what I think you meant by that statement, and you tell me if I'm on or off the mark.
When you say 'everything occurs within the mind' you aren't saying that there is this huge brain that everything is occurring in. What you are saying is occurrence is a process that is picked up from the brain, like an antennae, receiving information through our senses. When our brain picks something up, it occurs because it is the tool we use to consolidate all of our senses into an experience of what is going on around us.
How I would view what occurs to me is much different than what you would perceive, even if we are looking at the same thing (which is one reason why taking drugs is so cool as we can tap 'into' each other). This is what can be called subjective experience, which is all we can do.
so am I on or off the mark?
this explanation above is also how I would view the subjective experience.
Since this is the case, and all activity to your perception views as 'happening' ideas of subjectivity and objectivity are also a 'perception' In this case, the ideas of subjectivity and objectivity are literally none existent.
It's just like saying words have inherent meaning. They are symbols which we apply meaning to. just like ideas such as subjectivity and objectivity, they are ideas to describe what we 'think' is going on.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
Edited by kaiowas (03/20/07 03:03 AM)
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: kaiowas]
#6690521 - 03/20/07 04:28 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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You are on the mark. Everything might have an existence outside the self, but your perception of it is assembled in the mind...therefore objectivity is impossible.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: toastdth]
#6690523 - 03/20/07 04:29 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The observer effects the observed...fact.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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TheHateCamel
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Veritas]
#6690526 - 03/20/07 04:36 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
The application of these terms seems to be a frequent source of friction in this forum.
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Gomp
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Subjective &.Objective! [Re: Veritas]
#6690574 - 03/20/07 05:38 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ever heard of subjective objectivity?
...
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Subjective &.Objective! [Re: Silversoul]
#6691135 - 03/20/07 11:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ahh, silversoul, a good one: inter-subjectivity as a tool to reach more of objectivity !
Duality ! The mind with its brain-halves, the internal dialogue. All may be aspects to get us more objectivity into our subjectivity itself.
Maybe this is also an universal law which I finally can apply to my 1+1>3 thread
Thanks !
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Icelander
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6691170 - 03/20/07 11:56 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Threads can wander,...but in any case I am not interested in disputing anything...I was just stating my opinion...which IS relevant to the thread. My will to argue something I know to be true in my subjective experience is not there. Good night.
I don't agree that you opinion is relevant to this thread. The thread was about the definitions of objective and subjective and how to use them in debate.
You are talking about something altogether different. And by the way I do agree with what you are saying although not relevant to this discussion.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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it stars saddam
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6691185 - 03/20/07 12:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
The observer effects the observed...fact.
Hmm, no. That "the observer effects the observed" is a principle of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Considering that the Many Worlds interpretation exists (and is more sound imo), I think it's a bit too early to refer to the Copenhagen interpretation as "fact."
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Epigallo
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Hue's position makes sense to me.
If we look at things from a functional perspective, what is the difference between "many worlds" versus "observer affects observed"? Will different results follow your actions?
Imagine a world where the lense of every sentient being was green. We would still see different colors, but they would all have a greenish tint. But we wouldn't know that they had a greenish tint, because we would only be able to contrast and compare the external, just like now; green is nothing. We can not see the lense of our own eye; even it's reflection is filtered through the lense itself. What then, can we say about the lense?
The mind is also a lense. Can anything be said about the mind; the interface between objectivity and subjectivity? Anything said about it has not really been said about it, but from it. Every acion, process, experience, etc. has a subjective basis. There is nothing we can "do" with objectivity. The amount of people that share an experience has nothing to do with its objectivity, as I hope my green eye lense example demonstrates.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Epigallo]
#6691504 - 03/20/07 01:32 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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...unless there was born a being without a green lens somewhere sometimes. And this one would be stoned to death as being a 'liar'
But if he has some intelligence, he maybe could understand why the others see all green and try an explanation to let others recognise their green lens...
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Epigallo]
#6691846 - 03/20/07 03:18 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bradleycny said:
Hue's position makes sense to me.
Perhaps, but labeling it as 'fact' is jumping the gun (or the shark as kott would say).
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6691974 - 03/20/07 04:00 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The basic premise of the thread is based on the notion that reality can be objective. While I agree that no one subjective reality is better than another, it pins itself on the idea that there IS an objective reality. I was disputing that part of the premise as is my right. No thread guard dog is needed to keep posters on topic. It is possible that you consider your subjective experience more relevant than mine, but the very nature of your dispute goes against the premise put forward....which you claimed to agree with.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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I agree. I like to dabble in speculative science a bit too much sometimes.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6692043 - 03/20/07 04:19 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hue, you are welcome to express your subjective POV in this thread.
That said, my intention in posting this was to clarify the locus of subjective vs. objective occurrences. It's pretty simple: if it is only inside your head, then it is a subjective occurrence. If it is demonstrable outside of your head, then it is an objective occurrence.
Certainly we can discuss perception, the nature of reality, etc... etc... but I merely wanted to clarify a difference in terms.
OK, carry on!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6692469 - 03/20/07 06:39 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The basic premise of the thread is based on the notion that reality can be objective.
Didn't mean to step on your toes. I just didn't think you got the point of the post. Had you said something like, "while I see your point here; in reality etc.,etc." I might have left it alone. 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,689
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Veritas]
#6693055 - 03/20/07 08:54 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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"If it is demonstrable outside of your head"
That is just what you do not get regarding my response apparently. There is nothing demonstrable outside your head. That is where all of the information processing takes place. There is no point in defining that which does not exist in any form in our universe.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6693063 - 03/20/07 08:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't take insult quite so easily, but neither do I agree for the sake of acquiescence. I understand the post as it is written...do I read minds...no, but I make my living regulating communications so I think that I can read. According to my subjective interpretation it is you who do not understand my point.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6694274 - 03/21/07 03:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
You are on the mark. Everything might have an existence outside the self, but your perception of it is assembled in the mind...therefore objectivity is impossible.
if we cannot perceive reality in it's objective form, then how can one make a justified comment on whether things are impossible or possible?
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: kaiowas]
#6694345 - 03/21/07 05:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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right
say we make a machine that is not mind but which can describe situations in human terms - language.
it would have senses galore: vision, sound sensors, infrared, radio etc.
we could call its descriptions of situations objective, since it is an object.
but since it is historically derivative of humans, and since it uses language of humans, and since it describes situations in human terms, would it have a subjective nature as well?
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_ 🧠_
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: kaiowas]
#6694524 - 03/21/07 07:37 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because it is my subjective opinion...my perception. Your mileage may vary. I never said that I was the final word...I merely stated my perception. All any of us can do is state opinion. There is no way to measure the validity of that opinion...which is the point that I have been trying to make. In my view stating that Quote:
Objective(pertinent definition): Having actual existence or reality.
Is inaccurate because there is NO actual reality in my view...even the objective is just a relative subjective term. If one uses these definitions as Veritas has defined them then there is an assumption made of ultimate truth or reality which is what I am disputing. I do believe that there is a consensual reality based on the collective subjective experiences of all humans or humans in a group, but this is not objective.
However, I would have gone away a long time ago if Ice had not tried to tell me I had no business responding after all of the threads of mine that he so happily derails  However my comments are pertinent in my subjective opinion.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6694897 - 03/21/07 10:58 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I'm glad my tactics work on you.;)
assumption made of ultimate truth or reality which is what I am disputing. I do believe that there is a consensual reality based on the collective subjective experiences of all humans or humans in a group, but this is not objective.
Here's where I believe you are mistaken. There is/was no assumption of ultimate truth going on here. That's your assumption. It is consensual reality that is defined as objective. And this thread is about how to use the dictionary definitions of objective and subjective in debate on these shroomery forums. Which is something I have been trying to get across to you from the get go. But you are too stubborn IMO to stop and listen before you press forward with your subjective beliefs.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6695034 - 03/21/07 11:32 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Well I'm glad my tactics work on you
or the other way around?
So, by using a definition of objective you are not assuming it exists? To me this is actually an important concept for me to accept and operate under. Realizing that no ultimate truth, good, bad, or objective experience exists is the door to losing judgment. To say a word has meaning and then to define how it should be used is making the assumption that it is a valid concept. I am saying that for me the word has no meaning, and to see it used at any point indicates a flaw in logic to me.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6695083 - 03/21/07 11:46 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Your tactics always work on me. (which is a good thing)
So, by using a definition of objective you are not assuming it exists?
That's what I'm saying. And I'm saying it because I support the idea behind Verita's thread. See, these words are tools for communication and we have had lots of trouble here with people who think because they believe something in their heads it's true for the rest of us, no proof needed. The terms Objective/Subjective are useful in this context. Just as tree does not really describe what that entity really is, but it's useful when we want to talk about that so called tree.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6695098 - 03/21/07 11:51 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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True, BUT that is merely consensual agreement, not objectivity. How we use language determines how our reality is constructed in a big way.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6695107 - 03/21/07 11:52 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
True, BUT that is merely consensual agreement, not objectivity.
NOT ACCORDING TO THE DICTIONARY
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6695118 - 03/21/07 11:54 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Webster's does not have control of my assemblage point...at least not at that level.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6695129 - 03/21/07 11:57 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then I guess we're done here.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6695149 - 03/21/07 12:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do you have to always say stuff like we are done here. This is just makes me want to post more useless bullshit.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6695168 - 03/21/07 12:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I was telling Veritas that you were determined to have that last word and I was going to make you work for it.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6695203 - 03/21/07 12:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't really want the last word.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6696352 - 03/21/07 06:33 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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neither do I
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6696358 - 03/21/07 06:37 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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Drama!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Really? 
More like stupid fun between friends.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6696380 - 03/21/07 06:46 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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By all means, make the final comments.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6696748 - 03/21/07 08:16 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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OK!
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6696783 - 03/21/07 08:23 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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Good job!!!
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6696795 - 03/21/07 08:25 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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Thanks!
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Icelander]
#6697212 - 03/21/07 09:50 PM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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This is hard to watch.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6698239 - 03/22/07 03:58 AM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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hold it hold it!! now we don't want anyone gettin roughed up here
back to the thread at hand fellas 
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Because it is my subjective opinion...my perception. Your mileage may vary. I never said that I was the final word...I merely stated my perception. All any of us can do is state opinion. There is no way to measure the validity of that opinion...which is the point that I have been trying to make. In my view stating that Quote:
Objective(pertinent definition): Having actual existence or reality.
Is inaccurate because there is NO actual reality in my view...even the objective is just a relative subjective term. If one uses these definitions as Veritas has defined them then there is an assumption made of ultimate truth or reality which is what I am disputing. I do believe that there is a consensual reality based on the collective subjective experiences of all humans or humans in a group, but this is not objective.
However, I would have gone away a long time ago if Ice had not tried to tell me I had no business responding after all of the threads of mine that he so happily derails However my comments are pertinent in my subjective opinion.
I'm not saying that you were implying that you had the final word...that's not my point. what I am saying is that based on your view of subjectivity that you have outlined for us here, then how can you say there is no actual reality?
if you say you can't perceive something, then how can you comment, rather, how can you trust your own comments as to what is true or what is false?
you may desputing your own truth...and I am saying 'what about your own?'
it's like having a comment on whether or not aliens exist. how do you know? your logical mind or feeling may tell you something, but if you are questioning your own perception of the subject in question, then you must also question your opinion on it.
don't you agree?
btw, I'm glad you bothered replying
--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Subjective vs. Objective [Re: kaiowas]
#6698293 - 03/22/07 04:49 AM (17 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not saying that you were implying that you had the final word...that's not my point. what I am saying is that based on your view of subjectivity that you have outlined for us here, then how can you say there is no actual reality?
I can't say for certain that there is no final reality, but all I have are my perceptions. With my perceptions all that I can perceive is my version of reality. I am incapable of perceiving anything else. I can change my reality through changing the way I perceive, but they are still my perceptions. The fact that I can change the nature of my reality based on how I choose to use my gift to perceive leads me to believe that reality is in a state of flux....shifting constantly based on how I perceive. The very fact that my perceptions can alter the consensual reality brings me to the conclusion that all reality is subjective, and that the consensual reality forms an interlocked web of belief based on cultural agreement. Many confuse the consensual reality with the ultimate reality, but the consensual reality is based on programming and cultural commonality....nothing more. It is still a subjective phenomenon. In the end the only guide I have are my perceptions and to assume that there is anything beyond these is just that...an assumption.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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