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Invisiblegeko
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Conditions to induce fruiting * 3
    #6686360 - 03/19/07 07:25 AM (17 years, 14 days ago)

I have read a lot of theory on cultivation and I have practical experience now with somewhat constant success rate. However, there is one thing which is not clear to me yet - the conditions which trigger the fruiting phase. I will explain what I mean.
I know that there are said to be four triggers - light cycle, temperature drop, RH and FAE. Here is the dilemma:

During incubation it is acceptable to leave the spawn/substrate at room temperature. It can be in a lit place, since light does not affect incubation. The RH is high, since the spawn/substrate is in a closed container, and there should be some gas exchange, otherwise the mycellium will stall and die. So... since for cubes room temperature is in fact very close to fruiting temperature, and all other conditions are also there, I see not real difference between the incubation environment mentioned above and the desired fruiting environment, with the possible exception of different FAE intensity. This confuses me.
If I want to control things and to induce fruiting stage deliberately and precisely, I do not seem to have much means to do so, because I wouldn't be drastically altering any of the key factors involved.

Can someone explain this. Maybe RR, or Agar, or someone who has in depth knowledge of these things.

Edited by geko (03/19/07 02:01 PM)

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Offlinecubenessence
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: geko]
    #6686584 - 03/19/07 10:18 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

I think full colonization of the substrate is another big trigger, that along with FAE are the biggest differences (triggers) between incubation and fruiting environments. Temperature drop is not nessesary to induce pinning, and as you said light doesn't effect incubation, so I don't know if these could be considered fruiting triggers. Just my two cents.


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Invisiblegeko
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: cubenessence]
    #6686589 - 03/19/07 10:23 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

I think full colonization of the substrate is another big trigger...



Yes - exactly what I am thinking. In fact, I am inclined to assume that full colonization is the only major key factor triggering the pinning stage. FAE is important too, but not so much, because we can easily have in vitro growth in the jar.

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InvisibleSillicybin
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: geko]
    #6686680 - 03/19/07 11:07 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

geko said:
FAE is important too, but not so much, because we can easily have in vitro growth in the jar.




I disagree with this.

FAE is the MAIN pinning trigger. Just because a cake will pin in a jar doesn't mean that FAE isn't a pinning trigger. There is going to be a gas exchange provision on the jar if the jar colonized 100%, so there can be sufficient O2 to initiate pinning (but, of course, it's not optimal for best growth and best pinsets.) Full sub colonization does play a factor, but not as much as FAE.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: geko] * 11
    #6686698 - 03/19/07 11:15 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

The major pinning triggers are in order of importance, full colonization, a decrease in CO2 levels due to increased air exchange(not gas exchange which is minimal), a steady rate of evaporation from the substrate or casing layer, and lastly, light.

Hyphal knots form best in 100% humidity, but I didn't list that because it's not a pinning trigger, but rather an environmental condition that is necessary. That's why we use casing layers. The casing helps to provide the 100% humidity right at the surface of the substrate where the hyphal knots form.

I have seen no correlation with temperature drop whatsoever. In the summer, my growing chambers are 10 or more degrees warmer than the open shelves I incubate on due to the heating effects of the lights. Even with a temperature increase, I still get wall to wall pinsets, so I don't consider temp drop relevant at all to tropical species. Other growers disagree of course, but that's just my observation after many years.

Full colonization of the substrate is the number 1 pinning trigger. Full colonization can be when the mycelium reaches the physical border of the container they are in, or when they run up against a biological border, such as a contaminant species. Either way, they see they have colonized all of what is available to them, so they then enter the next phase, which is reproduction.

There must be evaporation of moisture from the substrate for pins to form. A waterlogged substrate will just sit there forever without pinning. Even in 99% humidity, as long as you provide fresh air, moisture will be evaporating away from the substrate, and this is necessary for pinning. We mist to replenish the lost moisture, then allow it to dry slightly before misting again. This keeps the moisture content high, and keeps the humidity at the casing surface near 100%, but at the same time provides the evaporation of moisture that is a very important pinning trigger.

During colonization, we provide very small holes in the jars or tubs for gas exchange. We want a high CO2 environment during colonization, because this prevents the mycelium from consuming all of the substrate. The mycelium colonizes the substrate, but doesn't 'eat it all up' due to the high CO2 levels. During fruiting, we remove the covers to provide air exchange, which is at a much higher level then the minimal gas exchange provided during colonization. This increase in air exchange lowers the CO2 levels, and is a major pinning trigger. At this time, the mycelium begins to consume the substrate it has previously colonized, and we notice during fruiting that our substrates pull away from the sides of the container. This is not due to moisture loss, but rather due to the mycelium 'eating' the substrate and turning it into CO2, a waste product. It is easily proved that this shrinking isn't related to moisture loss, because even when we dunk a bulk substrate, it doesn't return to its pre-flush size.

Last, but not by any means least is exposure to light. Light does much more than just tell the mushrooms which way to grow. There are mechanisms in the light that stimulate the formation of hyphal knots as well, and light at the higher end of the spectrum(blue) definitely, absolutely stimulate more hyphal knots(which grow into primordia, which then morph into pins) than light at the lower end of the spectrum(red) This does not mean to get a 'mood light' with a blue lens, but rather to select lights such as metal halide, or much more economical is 'natural daylight' fluorescent that emit light at around 6,000 kelvin to 7,500 kelvin depending on the brand. Cool white fluorescent emit light at around 5,000 kelvin and the 'red' incandescents emit light at around 3,000 kelvin. The higher the light temperature in kelvin, the more stimulatory it is to hyphal knot formation. I hope this helps.
RR


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Invisiblegeko
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6686760 - 03/19/07 11:46 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

Wow RR, thank you so much! This is just the information I was looking for!! Now it is much clearer to me. :sun:
What you describe correlates exactly with my limited observations, but gives me in addition the much needed practical explanations.

Edited by geko (03/19/07 12:59 PM)

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InvisibleSillicybin
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6686788 - 03/19/07 11:56 AM (17 years, 13 days ago)

RR, you definitely have more experience than I do with mycology - however every scientific mycology website I've ever been to lists FAE (CO2 PPM) as the number one pinning trigger, and always stresses the importance of not increasing FAE until after full colonization to prevent the mycelium from prematurely shifting to fruiting growth.

Is full sub colonization as the #1 trigger your experience with cubes, or is there another source that you learned this from?

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: Sillicybin] * 1
    #6687250 - 03/19/07 01:52 PM (17 years, 13 days ago)

By my listing them in order of importance, don't mistakenly think that minimizes the ones down the list. You don't want to increase FAE until full colonization. That indicates full colonization is the most important, so there is no conflict there. It's all in how the sentence is worded. All the pinning triggers need to be harmonized for best results.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleGlacier Creek
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7676441 - 11/24/07 11:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A bump for teaching me something. This made things much more clear for me.


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InvisibleJewelessCaesar
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #7676558 - 11/25/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow. :sunny: Thanks!


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Offlinemarz13
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7676632 - 11/25/07 01:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks Mr Roger Rabbit :yourock:

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OfflineQDP843
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: marz13]
    #7676667 - 11/25/07 01:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hey RR the metal halide light is one of the best?

mh or hps? which one?

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OfflineMarlboroMan
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: QDP843]
    #7676678 - 11/25/07 01:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

QDP843 said:
hey RR the metal halide light is one of the best?

mh or hps? which one?




I would just get a fluoro if I were you. MH and HPS are better for growing pot. They require a ballast, use shit tons of energy, and are pretty much overkill for mushrooms IMO. Just make sure you get a blue spectrum as said earlier no matter what light you do end up getting. :rockon:


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OfflineQDP843
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: MarlboroMan]
    #7676686 - 11/25/07 02:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

oh well lol, i was getting MH HPS anyways trying to kill two birds with one stone, why? more wbs for me!!!!!!!! hahaha ,

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OfflineNibin
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: QDP843]
    #7676879 - 11/25/07 04:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Metal Halide is the one you want, not High Pressure Sodium.


Vegetation lights not floration.


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Invisiblejeetered
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: Nibin]
    #7677064 - 11/25/07 07:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i find letting the substrate colonize 200% then inducing fae calls for pins in a matter of a few days.

light and temp are bullshit, they help i guess, but overly colonized subs and FAE for the win.

I personally lean more towards the subs being leeched out and running out of nutes as the main source of pinning, and then high FAE.

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Invisiblethemange
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: jeetered]
    #8617464 - 07/10/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

holy shit 200%

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InvisibleKrez
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8617489 - 07/10/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Last, but not by any means least is exposure to light.  Light does much more than just tell the mushrooms which way to grow.  There are mechanisms in the light that stimulate the formation of hyphal knots as well, and light at the higher end of the spectrum(blue) definitely, absolutely stimulate more hyphal knots(which grow into primordia, which then morph into pins) than light at the lower end of the spectrum(red)  This does not mean to get a 'mood light' with a blue lens, but rather to select lights such as metal halide, or much more economical is 'natural daylight' fluorescent that emit light at around 6,000 kelvin to 7,500 kelvin depending on the brand.  Cool white fluorescent emit light at around 5,000 kelvin and the 'red' incandescents emit light at around 3,000 kelvin.  The higher the light temperature in kelvin, the more stimulatory it is to hyphal knot formation.  I hope this helps.
RR





I couldve sworn I read somewhere to try and stay below 7000K...Im probably wrong.  Oh well,  guess I have some more reading to do.


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InvisibleLedd
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: Krez]
    #8617579 - 07/10/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Post to mark in threads.


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Offlinehongomagico
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Re: Conditions to induce fruiting question [Re: Ledd]
    #21753082 - 06/02/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Full colonization of the substrate is the number 1 pinning trigger. Full colonization can be when the mycelium reaches the physical border of the container they are in, or when they run up against a biological border, such as a contaminant species. Either way, they see they have colonized all of what is available to them, so they then enter the next phase, which is reproduction.





so mushrooms have some kind of EYES or holographic sensing to detect their food is all that ?

seems not...

Edited by hongomagico (06/02/15 06:40 PM)

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