Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomCube.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Offlineteddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics
    #6667633 - 03/14/07 03:23 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

After scouring the internets, incl this forum, I have found it commonly stated that individuals with a family history of clinical mental disorders such as schizophrenia should back the f* away from taking psilocybin, citing reasons that it can 'awaken' or 'agonize' the disorder.

Yet, the only evidence I can find points to this study (only an abstract which has no mention of schizophrenia or other disorders):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=3338231&dopt=citation

Someone please show me real evidence that links ingesting psilocybin or other psychedelics as triggers of latent mental disorders like schizophrenia surfacing. THANK YOU


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemakaveli8x8
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 21,636
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
    #6667658 - 03/14/07 04:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

ok i know this isn't what you asked for but this is my theory on how it got started.

1. people look crazy on shrooms
2. people sometimes change after shrooms
3. people with disorders are already "different"
4. different plus crazy = more crazy (based on common sense)

note: common sense isn't nessecaryly currect

also who in their right mind would give someone not in their right mind something that changes the mind?

to someone doing research the risk is just to great...thats why you won't find any research to back it up.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineteddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #6667672 - 03/14/07 04:32 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
to someone doing research the risk is just to great...thats why you won't find any research to back it up.




If there's no research, there's no evidence to say one way or the other and the theory is as good as you said.. common sense. in other words, fail.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefluffyfluffy
Awesome!
Female

Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 87
Loc: California
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
    #6667717 - 03/14/07 05:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I'd be interested in what people turn up with as well.

I was told that LSD (not psilocybin) could exacerbate or bring out latent problems like schizophrenia.

I think it's just generally a bad idea to give people who aren't ready for drugs drugs. And people who might have a higher predisposition to their harmful effects.

But that's different from creating a problem or bringing out a latent one, so... yeah, I want to know too!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEllisDSox
King Hella!

Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: fluffyfluffy]
    #6667907 - 03/14/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Despite all the paranoia, there's a surprisingly small amount of known instances of mental illness being triggered by psychedelics. I read an article once that put forward the theory that schizophrenia caused by psychedelics was a result of excessive adrenaline build up in the brain due to the intensity of the experience, rather than actually exacerbating a previously existing condition. I can't find it now, unfortunately, though I'll post it if I come across it again.


--------------------
Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: EllisDSox]
    #6668074 - 03/14/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The hypothesis of schizophrenia being caused by hallucinogens is based largely upon the fact that some of the acute effects of hallucinogens mimic schizophrenia and other forms of psychosis.

Much of this research was done early on in the 50's and 60's. What was usually found was that LSD could exacerbate (make worse) schizophrenic symptoms in psychotic patients, as well as being psychosis mimicing in normal individuals (hence the term "psychotomimetic").

A good example of this can be found in Vardy and Kay where people experiencing "LSD-induced psychosis" were found to be very similar to people with endogenous schizophrenia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6870484&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum


Sideny cohen has also looked in this, and has actually estimated the incidence of LSD-related psychosis to be about 8 per 10,000 people (1960). You will have to search erowid for this, as pubmed doesn't go back that far. He has published many more studies which might interest you.

Mcglothlin and arnold found a single case of psychosis in a survy of 247 users http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=5538851&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

All in all, the evidence appears to be relatively strong that LSD and other hallucinogens can bring out psychosis in people who are predisposed to it.

Direct cause and effect wouldbee difficult to establish however, as you could imagine the ethical difficulties in designing such an experiment.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: badchad]
    #6668269 - 03/14/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

when you are on a psychedelic, latent, and actual exchange readily, or latent potentialities seem much more ready to roll, like a multitude of heads all leaning in together looking into the well of the happenning moment (our body-minds) to see what is going to emerge next.

we become thick with potential or latency, and reverberant with actuality. the latency that we notice becomes reverberant too.

all of this is very simmilar to emotional experiencing.
usually psychologically treated cases relate unusual behavior or smptoms to something with a nexus or plexus that becomes identified as an emotionally significant event.

so the psychedelic journeys are very like the emotional events that become significant in psychological case books.

Not necessarily as causes but as remarkable events in personal histories.

seeking to prove that there is no relation between the remarkable events in people's lives and the various ways that people act is not going to yeild good fruit. neither in denying or in confirming a causal relationship between events and mental behavior.

we have to look more at it, not less at it, this does not mean to incriminate it, but to connect with it and to know it.

psychological suffering is much more common than reported, many avoid the stigma (will it affect my insurance rates, or my employability?) and others use the cloak of mental disease to change the rules of expected conduct.

LSD and mushrooms did not create life, but they do seem to concentrate it.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineteddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: badchad]
    #6669370 - 03/14/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The hypothesis of schizophrenia being caused by hallucinogens is based largely upon the fact that some of the acute effects of hallucinogens mimic schizophrenia and other forms of psychosis.

Much of this research was done early on in the 50's and 60's. What was usually found was that LSD could exacerbate (make worse) schizophrenic symptoms in psychotic patients, as well as being psychosis mimicing in normal individuals (hence the term "psychotomimetic").




Thank you for contributions, but I'm still unsatisfied with this outcome - particularly due to the seemingly abundant claim that latent schizophrenia is exacerbated by use of psychedelics, without proper citations.

The Cohen archive on erowid is indeed rife with helpful articles such as this:
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1733&C=All

Nevertheless, otherwise healthy individuals with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia are not addressed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
    #6669446 - 03/14/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Not to derail ya here but this makes me think about another aspect of drug misunderstanding..

A lot of people see crazy person, see crazy person's drug habits and then associate craziness with drugs. I think drugs attract crazy folks, and that if abused they can be highly detrimental to ones level of conscious stability - but the logic that drugs just flat out make you crazy is fuckin dumb. Of course we can all argue just what it is to be crazy, but you see where I'm comin from I hope.


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemushroomplume
Stranger
Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 1,395
Last seen: 14 years, 18 days
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: elbisivni]
    #6669463 - 03/14/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

One of my friends fathers works in a mental asylum and can attest to some of his patients being there because of taking a drug.

Syd Barret should be mentioned too...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6669604 - 03/14/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

no kidding..can he also claim that if they didn't do drugs they never would have had any mental problems to begin with? Maybe you didn't see where I was coming from, look again.

Quote:

Barrett's use of psychedelic drugs, especially LSD, during the 1960s is well-documented. Some believe that Barrett's drug use helped trigger (or at the very least contributed to) his mental illness. In an article published in 2006, Gilmour was quoted as saying: "In my opinion, his breakdown would have happened anyway. It was a deep-rooted thing. But I'll say the psychedelic experience might well have acted as a catalyst.



Source


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineteddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: mushroomplume]
    #6669610 - 03/14/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

oliveplume said:
One of my friends fathers works in a mental asylum and can attest to some of his patients being there because of taking a drug.

Syd Barret should be mentioned too...




Quote:

elbisivni said:
I think drugs attract crazy folks, and that if abused they can be highly detrimental to ones level of conscious stability





I have almost no doubt that set > psychedelic substance when it comes to risk factors/bad trips. Syd Barret is a classic example.

On an unrelated note:
http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/hereditygen.htm
http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (cannabis-focused)

This info starts to get at what I'm looking for...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
    #6669659 - 03/14/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

why so passionate in the collection of professional opinons
there are no hard facts in this direction.
at best you can have an expert witness in court


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineteddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6669757 - 03/14/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
why so passionate in the collection of professional opinons
there are no hard facts in this direction.
at best you can have an expert witness in court




is this comment directed towards me? I have no idea what you are talking about.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeathCompany
Oneironaut
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 12,662
Loc: Somewhere in my head
Last seen: 9 months, 28 days
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
    #6669761 - 03/14/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Authors
P. Miller, S. M. Lawrie, A. Hodges, R. Clafferty, R. Cosway, E. C. Johnstone
Abstract

Background: Studies of groups at high risk of developing schizophrenia have tended to be based on subjects recruited to the study in their infancy. This paper reports on subjects at genetic high risk for schizophrenia assessed as young adults, close to the age when most onsets of schizophrenia occur. Methods: One hundred and fifty-five young people at elevated risk for the development of schizophrenia and 36 controls not at increased risk were assessed on entry to the Edinburgh High Risk Study. The measures included current psychotic symptoms, past and present cannabis and other drug use, lifetime life events and two aspects of genetic liability to schizophrenia. Results: Cannabis and other illicit drug use were significantly associated with symptoms in both groups. The same held true for the more upsetting life events experienced, but not for less upsetting ones. Within the high-risk group, there was no relationship between symptoms and a measure of genetic loading, but there was some slight evidence of a higher risk of symptoms when affected relatives were on the father's rather than the mother's side of the family. Conclusions: Cannabis use, use of other illicit substances and upsetting life events may all lead to psychotic symptoms in vulnerable young people.






Morbid risk of schizophrenia for relatives of patients with cannabis-associated psychosis

Twenty-three patients admitted with acute psychosis who were cannabis positive on urinary screening were each matched, with respect to sex, with two psychotic controls who screened negatively for all substances. The lifetime morbid risk of psychiatric disorder was estimated among the first degree relatives of cases and controls, using RDC-FH criteria to define diagnoses, and Weinberg's shorter method of age correction. The cases had a significantly greater familial morbid risk of schizophrenia (7.1%) than the controls (0.7%), while the risks of other psychoses, and of non-psychotic conditions were similar. The same pattern of familial risk was evident when the analysis was restricted to patients with DSM-III schizophrenia. The data suggest that the development or recurrence of acute psychosis in the context of cannabis use may be associated with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia.





Neurological and morphological anomalies and the genetic liability to schizophrenia: a composite phenotype
Background: Neurological soft signs (NSS) and minor physical anomalies (MPA) are frequent in patients with schizophrenia and their biological relatives. We examined whether the NSS and MPA are related to the genetic loading in schizophrenia. Methods: Patients with schizophrenia (DSM-IV) (n=61), nonpsychotic parents of these patients (n=76) and healthy comparison subjects (n=44) took part in the study. Parents were further classified as “presumed carriers” of the genetic loading (n=26) if they had a second relative with schizophrenia in their ascendants and/or collaterals (first or second degree) or as “presumed noncarriers” (n=50). NSS and MPA were compared in these groups. Results: A multivariate analysis indicated that total NSS and MPA scores, adjusted for age and gender, were significantly related to group status. Univariate tests showed higher scores in motor coordination and integration subscores (p=0.005 and 0.008, respectively) in presumed carriers than in presumed noncarriers. In addition, a discriminant function analysis based on total NSS and MPA scores correctly classified 71% of nonpsychotic parents in presumed carriers or presumed noncarriers. Conclusions: Neurological impairments and slight morphological anomalies seem to be associated with the genetic risk for schizophrenia, even when the disease itself is absent. Their presence might be a valuable composite intermediate phenotype for genetic studies.

Thats from a few minutes of searching im sure theres much more. o and i couldn't get the whole articles most of em wanted money


--------------------


Edited by DeathCompany (03/14/07 05:48 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineteddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 14
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6669790 - 03/14/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DeathCompany said:
Thats from a few minutes of searching im sure theres much more. o and i couldn't get the whole articles most of em wanted money




Thank you. Out of curiosity, what was your search criteria?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeathCompany
Oneironaut
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 12,662
Loc: Somewhere in my head
Last seen: 9 months, 28 days
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
    #6669808 - 03/14/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

i went here http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en&lr=&q=&btnG=Search
and put stuff in such as genetic schizophrenia and lsd.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineguitarguy0123
Stranger
Male

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 233
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6670208 - 03/14/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Has no one else heard of lsd being used to treat schizophrenia?? We learned about it in psych.

Here's something I found right away, but I'm sure there's better resources that go more in depth with it. However, at the same time, drugs can cause people to go "crazy". Look up information on toxic psychosis.

http://www.phytomedical.com/Plant/LSD.asp

In subsequent years, LSD gained notoriety for use treatment of psychiatric disorders, including schizophrenia in particular.

In 1947, LSD became commercially available under the trade name, “Delysid” and within 15 years had been administered to over 40,000 patients and generated more than 1,000 scientific research studies.

However, with growing abuse and safety concerns, in 1967 the United States government declared the drug illegal and questioned the medicinal value of LSD.


--------------------
I don't know what's gonna happen man, but I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames. -Jim Morrison


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineguitarguy0123
Stranger
Male

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 233
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: guitarguy0123]
    #6670266 - 03/14/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

This looks like a good reference. I'll be honest though, I haven't read it, but they have plenty of references and quite a bit of information. Would be good to cross reference whatever their conclusions/theories are too. Hope this helps.

http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html


--------------------
I don't know what's gonna happen man, but I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames. -Jim Morrison


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeathCompany
Oneironaut
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 12,662
Loc: Somewhere in my head
Last seen: 9 months, 28 days
Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: guitarguy0123]
    #6670890 - 03/14/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sure he knew it was used in psychotherapy but he was asking if there were any studies on lsd causing schizophrenia in people with a family history of the disease.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Psychedelics and enlightenment
( 1 2 3 all )
LearyfanS 22,878 58 10/23/17 08:57 AM
by Ferdinando
* How can we get psychedelics rescheduled?
( 1 2 all )
psikooz 4,001 20 03/17/04 05:01 PM
by Psiloman
* Schizophrenia Backround Trainwreck 2,459 12 01/02/05 11:56 PM
by Trainwreck
* schizophrenia and hallucinogens
( 1 2 all )
stemmer 3,473 27 09/16/05 05:10 AM
by SweetJimmyBrown
* Mushrooms and schizophrenia
( 1 2 all )
OBE 23,896 21 01/30/18 03:31 PM
by openmind
* Does anybody else NOT have hallucinations on psychedelics.?
( 1 2 3 all )
PhanTomCat 14,575 56 07/12/16 03:37 PM
by cube talk
* schizophrenia and shrooms
( 1 2 all )
javacap 22,768 21 11/15/13 08:46 AM
by GreySatyr
* should i use psychedelics?
( 1 2 3 all )
ncj 10,448 54 08/07/03 07:31 PM
by ncj

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
3,991 topic views. 2 members, 58 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.