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teddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
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Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics
#6667633 - 03/14/07 03:23 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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After scouring the internets, incl this forum, I have found it commonly stated that individuals with a family history of clinical mental disorders such as schizophrenia should back the f* away from taking psilocybin, citing reasons that it can 'awaken' or 'agonize' the disorder.
Yet, the only evidence I can find points to this study (only an abstract which has no mention of schizophrenia or other disorders): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=3338231&dopt=citation
Someone please show me real evidence that links ingesting psilocybin or other psychedelics as triggers of latent mental disorders like schizophrenia surfacing. THANK YOU
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makaveli8x8
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
#6667658 - 03/14/07 04:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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ok i know this isn't what you asked for but this is my theory on how it got started.
1. people look crazy on shrooms 2. people sometimes change after shrooms 3. people with disorders are already "different" 4. different plus crazy = more crazy (based on common sense)
note: common sense isn't nessecaryly currect
also who in their right mind would give someone not in their right mind something that changes the mind?
to someone doing research the risk is just to great...thats why you won't find any research to back it up.
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  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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teddy
Oz

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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: makaveli8x8]
#6667672 - 03/14/07 04:32 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
makaveli8x8 said: to someone doing research the risk is just to great...thats why you won't find any research to back it up.
If there's no research, there's no evidence to say one way or the other and the theory is as good as you said.. common sense. in other words, fail.
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fluffyfluffy
Awesome!


Registered: 02/17/07
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
#6667717 - 03/14/07 05:41 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'd be interested in what people turn up with as well.
I was told that LSD (not psilocybin) could exacerbate or bring out latent problems like schizophrenia.
I think it's just generally a bad idea to give people who aren't ready for drugs drugs. And people who might have a higher predisposition to their harmful effects.
But that's different from creating a problem or bringing out a latent one, so... yeah, I want to know too!
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EllisDSox
King Hella!

Registered: 01/22/07
Posts: 25,730
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: fluffyfluffy]
#6667907 - 03/14/07 08:17 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Despite all the paranoia, there's a surprisingly small amount of known instances of mental illness being triggered by psychedelics. I read an article once that put forward the theory that schizophrenia caused by psychedelics was a result of excessive adrenaline build up in the brain due to the intensity of the experience, rather than actually exacerbating a previously existing condition. I can't find it now, unfortunately, though I'll post it if I come across it again.
-------------------- Disclaimer: If you have any kind of heart condition, my posts are not for you. You could literally die from reading the first couple of words in any one of them. Scroll down the page, live your life and prosper, but don't read my posts because your heart will probably explode. I am not joking.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: EllisDSox]
#6668074 - 03/14/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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The hypothesis of schizophrenia being caused by hallucinogens is based largely upon the fact that some of the acute effects of hallucinogens mimic schizophrenia and other forms of psychosis.
Much of this research was done early on in the 50's and 60's. What was usually found was that LSD could exacerbate (make worse) schizophrenic symptoms in psychotic patients, as well as being psychosis mimicing in normal individuals (hence the term "psychotomimetic").
A good example of this can be found in Vardy and Kay where people experiencing "LSD-induced psychosis" were found to be very similar to people with endogenous schizophrenia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6870484&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum
Sideny cohen has also looked in this, and has actually estimated the incidence of LSD-related psychosis to be about 8 per 10,000 people (1960). You will have to search erowid for this, as pubmed doesn't go back that far. He has published many more studies which might interest you.
Mcglothlin and arnold found a single case of psychosis in a survy of 247 users http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=5538851&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum
All in all, the evidence appears to be relatively strong that LSD and other hallucinogens can bring out psychosis in people who are predisposed to it.
Direct cause and effect wouldbee difficult to establish however, as you could imagine the ethical difficulties in designing such an experiment.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: badchad]
#6668269 - 03/14/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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when you are on a psychedelic, latent, and actual exchange readily, or latent potentialities seem much more ready to roll, like a multitude of heads all leaning in together looking into the well of the happenning moment (our body-minds) to see what is going to emerge next.
we become thick with potential or latency, and reverberant with actuality. the latency that we notice becomes reverberant too.
all of this is very simmilar to emotional experiencing. usually psychologically treated cases relate unusual behavior or smptoms to something with a nexus or plexus that becomes identified as an emotionally significant event.
so the psychedelic journeys are very like the emotional events that become significant in psychological case books.
Not necessarily as causes but as remarkable events in personal histories.
seeking to prove that there is no relation between the remarkable events in people's lives and the various ways that people act is not going to yeild good fruit. neither in denying or in confirming a causal relationship between events and mental behavior.
we have to look more at it, not less at it, this does not mean to incriminate it, but to connect with it and to know it.
psychological suffering is much more common than reported, many avoid the stigma (will it affect my insurance rates, or my employability?) and others use the cloak of mental disease to change the rules of expected conduct.
LSD and mushrooms did not create life, but they do seem to concentrate it.
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teddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: badchad]
#6669370 - 03/14/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: The hypothesis of schizophrenia being caused by hallucinogens is based largely upon the fact that some of the acute effects of hallucinogens mimic schizophrenia and other forms of psychosis.
Much of this research was done early on in the 50's and 60's. What was usually found was that LSD could exacerbate (make worse) schizophrenic symptoms in psychotic patients, as well as being psychosis mimicing in normal individuals (hence the term "psychotomimetic").
Thank you for contributions, but I'm still unsatisfied with this outcome - particularly due to the seemingly abundant claim that latent schizophrenia is exacerbated by use of psychedelics, without proper citations.
The Cohen archive on erowid is indeed rife with helpful articles such as this: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1733&C=All
Nevertheless, otherwise healthy individuals with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia are not addressed.
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
#6669446 - 03/14/07 04:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not to derail ya here but this makes me think about another aspect of drug misunderstanding..
A lot of people see crazy person, see crazy person's drug habits and then associate craziness with drugs. I think drugs attract crazy folks, and that if abused they can be highly detrimental to ones level of conscious stability - but the logic that drugs just flat out make you crazy is fuckin dumb. Of course we can all argue just what it is to be crazy, but you see where I'm comin from I hope.
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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mushroomplume
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: elbisivni]
#6669463 - 03/14/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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One of my friends fathers works in a mental asylum and can attest to some of his patients being there because of taking a drug.
Syd Barret should be mentioned too...
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: mushroomplume]
#6669604 - 03/14/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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no kidding..can he also claim that if they didn't do drugs they never would have had any mental problems to begin with? Maybe you didn't see where I was coming from, look again.
Quote:
Barrett's use of psychedelic drugs, especially LSD, during the 1960s is well-documented. Some believe that Barrett's drug use helped trigger (or at the very least contributed to) his mental illness. In an article published in 2006, Gilmour was quoted as saying: "In my opinion, his breakdown would have happened anyway. It was a deep-rooted thing. But I'll say the psychedelic experience might well have acted as a catalyst.
Source
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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teddy
Oz

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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: mushroomplume]
#6669610 - 03/14/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
oliveplume said: One of my friends fathers works in a mental asylum and can attest to some of his patients being there because of taking a drug.
Syd Barret should be mentioned too...
Quote:
elbisivni said: I think drugs attract crazy folks, and that if abused they can be highly detrimental to ones level of conscious stability
I have almost no doubt that set > psychedelic substance when it comes to risk factors/bad trips. Syd Barret is a classic example.
On an unrelated note: http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/hereditygen.htm http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (cannabis-focused)
This info starts to get at what I'm looking for...
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
#6669659 - 03/14/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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why so passionate in the collection of professional opinons there are no hard facts in this direction. at best you can have an expert witness in court
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teddy
Oz

Registered: 12/03/05
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: redgreenvines]
#6669757 - 03/14/07 05:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: why so passionate in the collection of professional opinons there are no hard facts in this direction. at best you can have an expert witness in court
is this comment directed towards me? I have no idea what you are talking about.
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DeathCompany
Oneironaut



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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
#6669761 - 03/14/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Authors P. Miller, S. M. Lawrie, A. Hodges, R. Clafferty, R. Cosway, E. C. Johnstone Abstract
Background: Studies of groups at high risk of developing schizophrenia have tended to be based on subjects recruited to the study in their infancy. This paper reports on subjects at genetic high risk for schizophrenia assessed as young adults, close to the age when most onsets of schizophrenia occur. Methods: One hundred and fifty-five young people at elevated risk for the development of schizophrenia and 36 controls not at increased risk were assessed on entry to the Edinburgh High Risk Study. The measures included current psychotic symptoms, past and present cannabis and other drug use, lifetime life events and two aspects of genetic liability to schizophrenia. Results: Cannabis and other illicit drug use were significantly associated with symptoms in both groups. The same held true for the more upsetting life events experienced, but not for less upsetting ones. Within the high-risk group, there was no relationship between symptoms and a measure of genetic loading, but there was some slight evidence of a higher risk of symptoms when affected relatives were on the father's rather than the mother's side of the family. Conclusions: Cannabis use, use of other illicit substances and upsetting life events may all lead to psychotic symptoms in vulnerable young people.
Morbid risk of schizophrenia for relatives of patients with cannabis-associated psychosis Twenty-three patients admitted with acute psychosis who were cannabis positive on urinary screening were each matched, with respect to sex, with two psychotic controls who screened negatively for all substances. The lifetime morbid risk of psychiatric disorder was estimated among the first degree relatives of cases and controls, using RDC-FH criteria to define diagnoses, and Weinberg's shorter method of age correction. The cases had a significantly greater familial morbid risk of schizophrenia (7.1%) than the controls (0.7%), while the risks of other psychoses, and of non-psychotic conditions were similar. The same pattern of familial risk was evident when the analysis was restricted to patients with DSM-III schizophrenia. The data suggest that the development or recurrence of acute psychosis in the context of cannabis use may be associated with a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia.
Neurological and morphological anomalies and the genetic liability to schizophrenia: a composite phenotype Background: Neurological soft signs (NSS) and minor physical anomalies (MPA) are frequent in patients with schizophrenia and their biological relatives. We examined whether the NSS and MPA are related to the genetic loading in schizophrenia. Methods: Patients with schizophrenia (DSM-IV) (n=61), nonpsychotic parents of these patients (n=76) and healthy comparison subjects (n=44) took part in the study. Parents were further classified as “presumed carriers” of the genetic loading (n=26) if they had a second relative with schizophrenia in their ascendants and/or collaterals (first or second degree) or as “presumed noncarriers” (n=50). NSS and MPA were compared in these groups. Results: A multivariate analysis indicated that total NSS and MPA scores, adjusted for age and gender, were significantly related to group status. Univariate tests showed higher scores in motor coordination and integration subscores (p=0.005 and 0.008, respectively) in presumed carriers than in presumed noncarriers. In addition, a discriminant function analysis based on total NSS and MPA scores correctly classified 71% of nonpsychotic parents in presumed carriers or presumed noncarriers. Conclusions: Neurological impairments and slight morphological anomalies seem to be associated with the genetic risk for schizophrenia, even when the disease itself is absent. Their presence might be a valuable composite intermediate phenotype for genetic studies.
Thats from a few minutes of searching im sure theres much more. o and i couldn't get the whole articles most of em wanted money
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Edited by DeathCompany (03/14/07 05:48 PM)
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teddy
Oz

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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: DeathCompany]
#6669790 - 03/14/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeathCompany said: Thats from a few minutes of searching im sure theres much more. o and i couldn't get the whole articles most of em wanted money
Thank you. Out of curiosity, what was your search criteria?
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DeathCompany
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: teddy]
#6669808 - 03/14/07 05:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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i went here http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en&lr=&q=&btnG=Search and put stuff in such as genetic schizophrenia and lsd.
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guitarguy0123
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: DeathCompany]
#6670208 - 03/14/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Has no one else heard of lsd being used to treat schizophrenia?? We learned about it in psych.
Here's something I found right away, but I'm sure there's better resources that go more in depth with it. However, at the same time, drugs can cause people to go "crazy". Look up information on toxic psychosis.
http://www.phytomedical.com/Plant/LSD.asp
In subsequent years, LSD gained notoriety for use treatment of psychiatric disorders, including schizophrenia in particular.
In 1947, LSD became commercially available under the trade name, “Delysid” and within 15 years had been administered to over 40,000 patients and generated more than 1,000 scientific research studies.
However, with growing abuse and safety concerns, in 1967 the United States government declared the drug illegal and questioned the medicinal value of LSD.
-------------------- I don't know what's gonna happen man, but I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames. -Jim Morrison
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guitarguy0123
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: guitarguy0123]
#6670266 - 03/14/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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This looks like a good reference. I'll be honest though, I haven't read it, but they have plenty of references and quite a bit of information. Would be good to cross reference whatever their conclusions/theories are too. Hope this helps.
http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html
-------------------- I don't know what's gonna happen man, but I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames. -Jim Morrison
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DeathCompany
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Re: Show Me Research - on schizophrenics+psychedelics [Re: guitarguy0123]
#6670890 - 03/14/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm sure he knew it was used in psychotherapy but he was asking if there were any studies on lsd causing schizophrenia in people with a family history of the disease.
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