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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
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Our right to revolution
    #666441 - 06/06/02 05:28 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I seem to recall from my history class in high school that the constition, bill of rights, or maybe the declaration of independance says something to the effect of that the government is meant to be for the good of the people ect. and if it ever becomes corrupt, we have a right to end it and install a new government. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Is this the founding fathers give us post mortem permission to instigate violent and bloody revolution?

larry


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RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #666631 - 06/06/02 07:32 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

dude, take your lefist propaganda someplace else, before the government shuts down the website on treason charges!

Just joking, however if you did a revolution, what would you change?


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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: nugsarenice]
    #666641 - 06/06/02 07:39 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I am certainly not trying to incite chaos or anything...

It is hard to say how I would change things. I think I would instate a policy of severe isolationism and call it the monroe doctorine .

what you you change?



--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #666643 - 06/06/02 07:40 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If the founding fathers were alive today they would either be leading a revolution against our government, or clawing at the inside of their coffins, I'm not sure which... But they definatly believed that revolutionary means are moral to overthrow a tyranical regime, such as the king of England. Most of the coplaints against England are valid today against our own government. we do have the right to destroy our current government and install a new one. I believe this is a God given right to live free. The problem is that Americans are fat, lazy, and contented enough. With beer and baseball games no one cares about the erosion of our rights because they're too comfortable. If you want a real revoution you need extreme and widespread dissatisfaction with our regime and leaders. That condition does not exist in America today even though oppression and tyranny do.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #666649 - 06/06/02 07:43 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

RE: "If the founding fathers were alive today they would either be leading a revolution against our government, or clawing at the inside of their coffins, I'm not sure which..."


I feels the same way.. it's really strange that we agree here... but we do.


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>>Jammer>>


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Offlinenezshoo
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #666681 - 06/06/02 08:01 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Yes... I agree


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Anonymous

Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #666965 - 06/07/02 05:37 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"...what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure."
- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #666969 - 06/07/02 05:44 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The revolution will not be televised.

Okay, that's getting old. As far as revolutions go, I wonder how much of a difference we could make if we just became more consciensious and more demanding consumers.

I don't want another dollar of mine to go towards the big businesses that run the show and don't care about anything but money. I'd just love for enough people to say "enough" and for their money flow to dry up. We could make it clear that our almighty dollar was going toward the business that has proven itself to be worthy of it--something we'd have to clarify, sort of a declaration--or otherwise outright boycott things that just have to go.

Works great in theory, but in reality...Kind of a pipe dream, but what idea of revolution isn't at this point?


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #666970 - 06/07/02 05:44 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

We have the right to approach the govenment with a list of complaints and greivances.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #666992 - 06/07/02 06:00 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry Doob, but I doubt a list of Grievances is going to do much, besides give them a good laugh. In my opinion it is past the point of letter writing and petitions...we seriously need to take to the streets and protest, and if a revolution is what it will take...so be it.

It's not a matter of Democrat or Republican, those are just different names attached to the same corrupt system...are you aware that 2.3 TRILLION U.S. dollars went "missing" last year alone from Government coffers...the annual U.S. defense budget is only approx 380 Billion. 2.3 Trillion "missing"???...what the fuck? I can pretty much guarantee that money didn't go to those who needed it. I could go on for hours about the insanely corrupt goverment of not only the U.S. but Isreal, Britain,and yes...Canada. And I will post all my recent information soon...with references for the doubters.



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Rono]
    #666994 - 06/07/02 06:04 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I was answering Larry's question.

Petitions and letter-writing will be far more effective than standing in the street with a picket sign.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #667033 - 06/07/02 06:29 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I think I'm somewhere in between. We can't expect our government to make major changes based on a bunch of signatures, but if those signatures are backed by action--whether its a march or a boycott or other, then they may feel inclined.



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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #667303 - 06/07/02 09:53 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If "we" led a revolution, and changed the shit that "we" wanted to change, guess who would be leading the next revolution? All those people who got shafted because of us and what we believed was important.

There needs to be more of a standard set of problems that effects the whole population in a way that they recognize... but someone already said that, didn't they.


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #667947 - 06/07/02 06:22 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

RE: "Petitions and letter-writing will be far more effective than standing in the street with a picket sign"


Im not sure if I agree or not here... I spent years encouraging my friends to write Congress about legalizing weed.... most are not even regestered voters.... However if I suggest going to (for ex:) The Hash Bash in Ann Arbor Michigan many times they will be more than happy to get involved.... (too bad that they all dont vote!)

PLEASE VOTE!!!

hehe...

Paid for by: (c) 2002 - A Jammer Org. -


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>>Jammer>>


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Jammer]
    #668066 - 06/07/02 08:51 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Im not sure if I agree or not here... I spent years encouraging my friends to write Congress about legalizing weed.... most are not even regestered voters.... However if I suggest going to (for ex:) The Hash Bash in Ann Arbor Michigan many times they will be more than happy to get involved.... (too bad that they all dont vote!)




Who would they vote for, maybe Dubya? Or maybe Gore? Or maybe Woody Harrolson? There aren't really many anti-prohibition candidates. I vote in every general election and I try to make it to primaries and the only choice there ever would really be for pro-pot legalization would be the green party, and they're a bunch of red commies.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #668188 - 06/08/02 12:50 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"red commies" , I think you went to far with that, if anyone remembers history, the red communists were proponets of violence, however the green party has a "strict" non violence platform, so everyone can continue spreading dogmatic communist propaganda at the green party, but red communist will not stand a chance.


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Anonymous

Re: Our right to revolution [Re: nugsarenice]
    #669283 - 06/08/02 07:52 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Nugsarenice wrote:
the green party has a "strict" non violence platform

There are quite a number of things that the greens say should be provided for free or subsidized. Where will the funds for this come from? Who will pay? What will happen if someone refuses to pay?

The greens do not understand the nature of government (the state) and lie to themselves and others when they state that their platform advocates non-violence. If you advocate that the state forces somebody to pay for something, or that the state forces somebody to do something, or that the state should stop somebody from engaging in non-violent behavior this is NOT a non-violence platform.

Understand this: whenever you ask the state to do something, you are asking for money to be taken from some people to pay for it or forcing some people to perform those actions. If people refuse, men with guns will come and attempt to force them to obey, if they don't obey and resist, if resistance is taken to it's ultimate conclusion the agents of the state will kill them. This is the nature of the state.

Ask yourself this. When the green party is in power, what will they do if citizens refuse to go along with their wishes. Will they attempt to use persuasion? If people still refuse after attempts at persuasion, then what? Will they send law enforcement personnel to force cooperation? If a citizen refuses, will they walk away or will they use the force of the State to implement their desires?


"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
George Washington



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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Jammer]
    #673892 - 06/11/02 08:05 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Because your friends go to a pot rally and are too lazy to write letters does not make a pot rally more effective than letters.

Protests are totally ignored by the mainstream media and by the representitives of government. Learn that, at least, from the '60's when at least the media paid attention.

Boycotts on the other hand is a really really good idea but it takes sacrifice.

I don't think the masses are nearly pissed enough to make sacrifices.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineJammer
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Pot Protests! [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #675668 - 06/12/02 07:10 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

RE: "Protests are totally ignored by the mainstream media.."


The "media" does report when a protest gets big enough... ('problem is that THEY ALWAYS SHOW THE DUMBEST AMOUNG US!)


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>>Jammer>>


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OfflineTeiro
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #689735 - 06/20/02 04:56 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)



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Life does not have to be necessarily long. It just has to be good. Be wise. Peace, Love, Flower Power.


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OfflineMalachi
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Our responsibility to revolte. [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #691116 - 06/20/02 04:52 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

That one thing that has been made clear to me: The reason for the struggle, life, is to become something more true and clear and balanced than what we now are--we haven't learned to cope with our big brains, and just as it is your skin's job to seek a better way by regenerating after a cut, we are obligated to further our own way of life. Revolution is just another word for worship or duty or the way or zen or tao.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #691232 - 06/20/02 05:44 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, I don't have anything in my "constitution grab bag" dedicated to this particular question. Meaning, that though intensive study of the constitution and the related fedralist papers leads one to beleive that, indeed, our founding fathers and most legal professionals do see the right of revolution represented, it is most assuredly not written in any codes on the books.

This may help though.

James Wilson, Of the Study of the Law in the United States, Lectures on Law

1791Works 1:76--79
A question deeply interesting to the American States now presents itself. Should the elements of a law education, particularly as it respects publick law, be drawn entirely from another country--or should they be drawn, in part, at least, from the constitutions and governments and laws of the United States, and of the several States composing the Union?

The subject, to one standing where I stand, is not without its delicacy: let me, however, treat it with the decent but firm freedom, which befits an independent citizen, and a professor in independent states.

Surely I am justified in saying, that the principles of the constitutions and governments and laws of the United States, and the republicks, of which they are formed, are materially different from the principles of the constitution and government and laws of England; for that is the only country, from the principles of whose constitution and government and laws, it will be contended, that the elements of a law education ought to be drawn. I presume to go further: the principles of our constitutions and governments and laws are materially better than the principles of the constitution and government and laws of England.

Permit me to mention one great principle, the vital principle I may well call it, which diffuses animation and vigour through all the others. The principle I mean is this, that the supreme or sovereign power of the society resides in the citizens at large; and that, therefore, they always retain the right of abolishing, altering, or amending their constitution, at whatever time, and in whatever manner, they shall deem it expedient.

By Sir William Blackstone, from whose Commentaries, a performance in many respects highly valuable, the elements of a foreign law education would probably be borrowed--by Sir William Blackstone, this great and fundamental principle is treated as a political chimera, existing only in the minds of some theorists; but, in practice, inconsistent [Volume 1, Page 94] with the dispensation of any government upon earth.

. . . . .

And yet, even in England, there have been revolutions of government: there has been one within very little more than a century ago. The learned Author of the Commentaries admits the fact; but denies it to be a ground on which any constitutional principle can be established.

If the same precise "conjunction of circumstances" should happen a second time; the revolution of one thousand six hundred and eighty eight would form a precedent: but were only one or two of the circumstances, forming that conjunction, to happen again; "the precedent would fail us."

The three circumstances, which formed that conjunction, were these: 1. An endeavour to subvert the constitution, by breaking the original contract between the king and people. 2. Violation of the fundamental laws. 3. Withdrawing out of the kingdom.

Now, on this state of things, let us make a supposition--not a very foreign one--and see the consequences, which would unquestionably follow from the principles of Sir William Blackstone. Let us suppose, that, on some occasion, a prince should form a conjunction of only two of the circumstances; for instance, that he should only violate the fundamental laws, and endeavour to subvert the constitution: let us suppose, that, instead of completing the conjunction, by withdrawing out of his government, he should only employ some forty or fifty thousand troops to give full efficacy to the two first circumstances: let us suppose all this--and it is surely not unnatural to suppose, that a prince, who shall form the two first parts of the conjunction, will not, like James the second, run away from the execution of them--let us, I say, suppose all this; and what, on the principles of Sir William Blackstone, would be the undeniable consequence? In the language of the Commentaries, "our precedent would fail us."

But we have thought, and we have acted upon revolution principles, without offering them up as sacrifices at the shrine of revolution precedents.

Why should we not teach our children those principles, upon which we ourselves have thought and acted? Ought we to instil into their tender minds a theory, especially if unfounded, which is contradictory to our own practice, built on the most solid foundation? Why should we reduce them to the cruel dilemma of condemning, either those principles which they have been taught to believe, or those persons whom they have been taught to revere?

It is true, that the learned Author of the Commentaries concludes this very passage, by telling us, that "there are inherent, though latent powers of society, which no climate, no time, no constitution, no contract can ever destroy or diminish." But what does this prove? not that revolution principles are, in his opinion, recognized by the English constitution; but that the English constitution, whether considered as a law, or as a contract, cannot destroy or diminish those principles.

It is the opinion of many, that the revolution of one thousand six hundred and eighty eight did more than set a mere precedent, even in England. But be that as it may: a revolution principle certainly is, and certainly should be taught as a principle of the constitution of the United States, and of every State in the Union.

This revolution principle--that, the sovereign power residing in the people, they may change their constitution and government whenever they please--is not a principle of discord, rancour, or war: it is a principle of melioration, contentment, and peace. It is a principle not recommended merely by a flattering theory: it is a principle recommended by happy experience. To the testimony of Pennsylvania--to the testimony of the United States I appeal for the truth of what I say.



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Offlinefrancisco
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #751049 - 07/16/02 12:49 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Read the constitution,Not only is it your right it is your duty.It say's not for frivoulous means.


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Well...Maybe just a little.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Pot Protests! [Re: Jammer]
    #752571 - 07/17/02 05:12 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah they show the dumbest among you and just say that there were protestors. They don't say why the people are protesting.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Revolution [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #753596 - 07/17/02 12:40 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I certainly agree that the founding fathers would be going crazy right now. When our system of government, constituion, etc were set up. it was a completely different world. It was simpler. There were no nukes, palm pilots, SUVs, taliban, automatic weapons, LSD, computers, school shootings, airplanes, etc. Think about everything in our lives that we deal with on a daily basis that is so completely removed from life as it was 230 years ago. There is no way any of our forefathers could have predicted or forseen the world as it is today. That is what allways kills me when I hear people talking about what the founding members of the US would have wanted. I say, who cares? We are the people. Our lives and the lives of our children are what we need to consider. Quit considering what a select few old white guys thought about nearly two and a half centuries ago and start considering what the people want and need today. I support all legal actions before I support revolution surely, but certainly would not consider revolutioin to be an impractical means to an end.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Revolution [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #753625 - 07/17/02 12:53 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

That is what allways kills me when I hear people talking about what the founding members of the US would have wanted. I say, who cares?




I care very much. Which of our rights that the writers of the Bill of Rights thought so important would you give up?

Freedom of the press perhaps? I'm sure the writers couldn't concieve of radio or television. Does that make that ammendment any less important?

How about the Second ammendment? I'm sure they never envisioned smokeless powders and centerfire rifles. Should these not be protected?

Could they have forseen thermal imaging devices? No? Well then, should you have no protection from these devices?

What rights would you give up to suit the "needs" of today? Which ones do you not care enough about to try and be sure your children and their children will still have for their protection?

The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights are the two greatest documents written in the history of mankind. The very fact that they are still as important today as they were when written speaks volumes for the incredible wisdom of our founding fathers.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Revolution [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #757402 - 07/18/02 07:13 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Doesn't matter


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Invisibletoxick
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Re: Our right to revolution [Re: Rono]
    #773520 - 07/24/02 01:16 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Start Here

I would really love to see this turn out to be what Bob Schulz wants it to be, but that can only happen if YOU (and you, and you, and you) decide to drive to washington this november. I'll be there.

Out of all of the "crazy movements" out there, I really think this is one of the ones that will be easy for "average" people to get behind. Go up to any "average" citizens and ask them if they want to legalize pot, and your answers will vary. Ask them if they feel ass-raped by the IRS, and you'll get a resounding 'yes'.

Today, the tax system. Tomorrow, our freedom.

There is a PDF flyer available for printing/distribution.

More @ GiveMeLiberty.Org


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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