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Offlinerungi
journeymana

Registered: 07/11/01
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comparison subs to foenisecii(photos)
    #664647 - 06/05/02 06:41 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Panaeolus foenisecii grows in grass.

Panaeolus subbalteatus grows in compost or manure

They can be distinguished by cap texture and subs grow typically clustered.
I have found black spore prints are common in foenisecii look alikes and undistinguishable macroscopically.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #665079 - 06/06/02 01:34 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Panaeolus subbalteatus also grow in grass and in woodchips rungi,

Here is a picture in woodchip mulch and soil.



and here is another variation of Panaeolina foenisecii Maire, the correct name for this mushroom. And there are four species of Paneolina in grass throughout the world.



And Rungi, you say, "I have found black spore prints are common in foenisecii look alikes and undistinguishable macroscopically. "

If you read any field guide you will read that Panaeolina foenisecii has chocolate-brown sporeprints and Panaeolus species have black sporeprints.

There are no black-spored panaeolina foenisecii mushrooms or look-a-lokes except the only look-a-likes are Panaeolus subbalteatus and the other species in their complex.

And contrary to Paul Stamets listing of this mushroom as Psilocybe foenisecii, I present below the correct binomials for Panaeolina foenisecii as published by me and Mark D. Merlin, Ph.D and accepted by the mycological Society of North America as correct. All Psilocybes have chocolate-brown to purple-brown prints, not black yet Panaeolina foenisecii is a Panaeolina, not a Panaeolus. ITs prints are never black. And no Panaeolina look-a-likes have black prints.

See Stamets photo and text below.

Mj

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Here is the mycological classification and breakdown on the correct name for this species.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

Over the past 75 years, P. foenisecii has been placed in various genera, including Psilocybe (Ricken 1915), Coprinus (Michael 1919) and Psathyrella (Smith 1972). Taxonomic reference to the genus and synonyms for the species include the following binomials listed according to their chronological taxonomic description.


Panaeolina R. Maire, Treb. Mus. Nat. Barcel. ser. Bot. 15:109 (1933).
Type species: Agaricus foenisecii Pers.:Fr., Syst. Mycol. 1:295 (1821).
Typonym: Psilocybe Fayod, Ann. Sci. Nat. (Bot.) 7(9):377 (1889).

Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire (Haymakers).

Agaricus foenisecii Pers.:Fr., Syst. Mycol. 1:295 (1821).
Psilocybe foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Quelet, Champ. Jura. Vosges 1:47 (1872).
Drosophila foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Quelet, Enchiridion:117 (1886).
Psathyra foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Bert, Bull. Soc. Mycol. Fr. 17:227 (1901).
Panaeolus foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) Kuhner. Botaniste 17:187 (1926).
Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire, Treb. Mus. Cienc. Nat. Barcel. ser. Bot. 15:109 (1933).
Psathyrella foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) A. H. Smith, Mem. NY Bot. Gdn. 24:32 (1972).

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Thus the correct binominal for this species is:


Panaeolina foenisecii (Pers.:Fr.) R. Maire (The Haymower's Mushroom).

Not Psilocybe foenisecii as listed by Mr. Stamets.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

And yes Paneolus subbalteatus will grow in grassy areas along with Panaeolina foenisecii if the spores are in the sod and the fertilzers used to spray the sod also may carry spores.

btw, nice photos.



Edited by mjshroomer (06/06/02 06:47 AM)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: mjshroomer]
    #665082 - 06/06/02 01:39 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

This image and text are frpom page 77 of Paul Stamets book Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World.



mjshroomer


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Offlinerungi
journeymana

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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: mjshroomer]
    #665363 - 06/06/02 06:49 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Also named by David Arora as Panaeolus foenisecii. Page 360 mushrooms demystified. I think the reason for the placement into the genus Panaeolina is because the spores are roughened and they grow in grass. The brown spore print also, or somethimes black don't no if the spores are rough or smooth in these black spored fonys. Subbalteatus and most other panaeolus have smooth spores. .
Anyway the name is irrelevant(it describes nothing=means all variegated in latin where it originates.) i think it the mushroom in question is perfectly clear. The top mushroom is a non posionsous edible. Who cares if it is called panaeolus or panaeolina. Most people are well aware they are used as synonyms including Paul Stamets.
Page 77 "Panaeolus foenisecii=Panaeolina foenisecii. For that matter did you no the name of Psilocybe is wrong and the entire genera name will be most likely be change because taxonomy rules. This is beyond me i don't have access to a microscope. The criteria seperating different genus and different species is not published as well as it should be.
Thats my opinion anyway.
CHAPTER 2
Once upon a time i was walking through the forest at a blistering pace when i noticed some mushrooms curiousness became seriouness.

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Offlinebaraka
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #665457 - 06/06/02 08:01 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Check the pics i posted on pan foenisecii a few days ago. Well i thought they where pann foenisecii. They where growing ALL over in everyones grass in ohio.

They had a black spore print. Definatly black.



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Edited by baraka (06/06/02 08:06 AM)


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OfflineSCIncident
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: baraka]
    #666377 - 06/06/02 06:49 PM (15 years, 19 days ago)

There is a whole bunch in my front yard...if only you could trip off them i'd be set.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #667160 - 06/07/02 10:01 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Hey Rungi,

speaking of David Arora's book Mushrooms dymestified, look at his color photo of Psilocybe cyanescens. It is actually a photograph of Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa. Me and several mycologists have brought this both to the attentiopn of David and to Paul Stamets yet in subsequent prints in both the paperbound edition as well as the hard bound edition, neither have attemtped to correct that error.

There are several other minor errors in iding his psilocybe shrooms.

Just wanted ot point that out to you and no panaeolina mushroom (four species in the genera) have black spore prints. Panaeolus, Coprinus and Anellaria are black spored mushrooms,

Psilocybes are chocolate to purple-brown and panaeolina's are brown. I have at least over thirty mushroom ID guides dating back to the late 1800s and contemporary id books by Miller, Kaufman, Amiratti, abnd others who will also tellyou that no Panaeolina mushrooms have black gills.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (06/07/02 10:07 AM)


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Offlinewhy
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #667273 - 06/07/02 11:30 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

>I have found black spore prints are common in foenisecii look alikes and undistinguishable macroscopically.

I think what you are saying is that there are species that look very similar to Panaeolina foenisecii in the genus Panaeolus, which (apart from the black spores) are difficult to tell apart by just looking at them.

This I what I have found too.

You see pictures of various 'forms' of Panaeolina foenisecii in field guides. I have found these 'forms' while out mushroom hunting, and they have BLACK spores, not dark brown.

MJ, do you have to be so pedantic??





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Offlinerungi
journeymana

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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: why]
    #667546 - 06/07/02 02:44 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

why, correct that is what i am saying in different words
mj, where does stamets list the mushoom as psilocybe foenisecii.
you have told me this mushroom resembles a stropharia, or psytharella and is weak. I still don't know what it is called, I listed the reasons i thought it was psilocybe based on distinctions seperating the genus from stropharia, namatolma, panaeolus, panaeolina and psythrella. The color of the sporepint ruling out the latter two.( Now don't tell me some panaeolus somethimes have purple spores unless of course they do) . Howeverer, I know the mushoom in which the picture may or may not display is psycoactive. Once you upload a photo can you not download ? From the preview, the sentence before the last one was created if you know what i mean. Hang on a second Well done. Thankyou. forget it.


Edited by rungi (06/07/02 03:13 PM)


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OfflineNewHunter
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: why]
    #667924 - 06/07/02 07:52 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

foenisecii's have overtakin my backyard, are they even worth picking?


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Offlinebaraka
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: NewHunter]
    #667928 - 06/07/02 07:56 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

i tasted a few. I didn find them to apealing.


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Offlinewhy
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #668436 - 06/08/02 07:36 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Paul Stamets lists the species as Panaeolus foenisecii. This obviously isn't because he is too ignorant to know the correct name. He sais himself in his book that he was not following orthodox taxonomy and he gave his reasons for doing so on page 68 (Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World)


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journeymana

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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: why]
    #672101 - 06/10/02 06:11 PM (15 years, 15 days ago)

why, that is true
I don't belive geuns panaeolus is complete as mj may be implying. and identical "looking" mushrooms(to panolina foenisecii with black prints exist that may not be named. without. The condraticiton is probablely just a miskatake he made. (Just like Stamets and Auroa.) He knows what he is talking about generally. I am somewhat confused as to his experience on there effects.
i know what they do. you don't become sick and they are magically visual. . Obviously there is a distinticion between what lizzard king posted . I am curious as to the posibility that some strains are quite a bit more potent than other. The cultivated strain i have seen pictures of are mostly from a strain looking very similar to those. I like the fact they are so obvious yet overlooked by so many pickers.


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Offlinegeko127
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #672328 - 06/10/02 09:35 PM (15 years, 15 days ago)

That look's just like the shrooms iv been finding in wood chip mulch, Spore color black, and they dont get much bigger then that and i found that the spores were mainly on the outer underneth side of the cap/gills.
I took 6 prints, but they dident turn out very good, it was like there was hardly ant spore in em at all, out of the 6 prints i got about 1/2 a match head's worrth , So im gona gro some.


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Offlinewhy
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: rungi]
    #674589 - 06/12/02 10:52 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

rungi, what is the typical cap diameter of the foenisecii you find? When I find them they are larger than the 1-2(3)cm given in descriptions, look similar to the stamets photo above and (of course) have chocolate brown spores.

so no-one can missunderstand, When I said-

>You see pictures of various 'forms' of Panaeolina foenisecii in field guides. I have found these 'forms' while out mushroom hunting, and they have BLACK spores, not dark brown.

this is not to say that some forms of Panaeolina foenisecii have black spores, my point being was that the photographer had taken a pic of another small grassland Panaeoli by mistake.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: why]
    #674716 - 06/12/02 12:30 PM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Panaeolus olivaceus also resembles Panaeolina foenisecii and has blackspore deposits. It is a Panaeolus. There are two other Panaeolus mushrooms which also resemble Panaeolina foenisecii and are not psychoactive and have black spore prints.

Because a shroom resembles Panaeolina foenisecii does not mean it is a Panaeolina and if it has black prints then it has to be a Panaeolus. IT is wrong to say you find Panaeoina with black prints because that can not be..

There are four species of Panaeolina and all four have brown sporeprints.

there are 28 species of Panaeolus mushrooms, not all have psilocybine in them. There are 287 species of Psilocybe and only 192 are now known to contain psilocine and psilocybine.

You can eat all the Paneolina's that you want to but you will not get high. You may become relaxed due to trytophan in them, an amino acid which is also common in turkey and in warm milk. ANd that chemical is used for depression and to help with insomnia and does not get one high.

mj


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Offlinewhy
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Re: comparison subs to foenisecii(photos) [Re: mjshroomer]
    #676569 - 06/13/02 01:27 PM (15 years, 12 days ago)

MJ said-

> IT is wrong to say you find Panaeoina with black prints because that can not be..

In reply-

MJ, you really need to be more carefull when you read these posts. I did not say that Panaeolina foenisecii has black spores.

>this is not to say that some forms of Panaeolina foenisecii have black spores, my point being was that the photographer had taken a pic of another small grassland Panaeoli by mistake.

I said the above, just so no one could possibly misunderstand what I was saying, and yet you still somehow managed to do so... What on earth did you think I was saying? THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT SOME FORMS OF PANAEOLINA FOENISECII HAVE BLACK SPORES, how did you read this and interpret this as me saying that they do have black spores???????????

You misunderstood what rungi had said - no big deal

so I put it a different way...
>I think what you are saying is that there are species that look very similar to Panaeolina foenisecii in the genus Panaeolus, which (apart from the black spores) are difficult to tell apart by just looking at them.

and you still didn't understand - okay... everyone makes mistakes...
but then you misread:

>You see pictures of various 'forms' of Panaeolina foenisecii in field guides. I have found these 'forms' while out mushroom hunting, and they have BLACK spores, not dark brown.

This is an ambiguous statement, which is why I wrote THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT SOME FORMS OF PANAEOLINA FOENISECII HAVE BLACK SPORES in my next post. (so you have no excuse for misreading it) I was using it as an example of where someone had confused a Panaeolus species for Panaeolina foenisecii. (and photographed it)

All that anyone has said is this - There are Panaeolus species (with black spores) that can be confused with Panaeolina foenisecii (with chocolate brown spores) IF YOU DO NOT CHECK SPORE COLOUR

please read the posts more carefully (and try not to be so pedantic about nomenclature - this is the shroomery message boards for heaven's sake!)




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