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InvisibleApollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)
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Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Diamonds808]
    #7320808 - 08/22/07 07:44 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I "believe" in free will as much as I believe in "pre-destination".

Although it is as almost there is a quality of Natural Selective Pre-Destination :-)


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InvisibleLayzie
Me So sLeeepy!
Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 174
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #7321733 - 08/22/07 01:17 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

K inresponse to the first post about god not stepping in for those rapist and murders... God created everything right?
so.. lets say the poor helpless mushrooms or Weed plant whichever you prefer is sitting their enjoying life and you come walk along and pick the mushrooms and eat them right infront of the other mushrooms.

now its hard to try to compare day and sun but hear me out. why didnt god smite you for picking something off the earth and destroying it at your own free will. After your done w/ your wrath possible some family members left to rebuild their family. (referring to spores)

i mean bad shit happens IT is free will. NUke bomb dropped in japan their was alot of people innocent that got kilt. 9-11. How is god supposed to jump in all these things. YOu want god to jump in next time some emo kid slits its wrist's? to turn the razor into rubber like that. Its not how it works.

Its shitty anyone can go pull out a gun and kill someone but i see it no different killing animals or picking plants for that "high". belive it or not studies have proven criminals and sicko's get high off of commiting crimes

my 2 cents. dont let tripping and thinking bout death knock you down If anything their death took them to a better place than what this shithole is turning into.

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Offlinesuave
Stranger
Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 289
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Layzie]
    #7321817 - 08/22/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Layzie said:
this shithole is turning into.





purely subjective. If your rich, with a person you love, and life is just is just spectacular everyday, then it's a heavenhole.

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InvisibleAtheist
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Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 13,705
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Re: What I think I learned... [Re: rsimoa]
    #7321910 - 08/22/07 02:15 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

this is why i dont believe in god (it is similar to the reasoning in your story)

there is WAAAAAY too much suffering on this planet. some of the worst things happen to the best people.

its just the way it is. some bad people get away with rape and murder. it just life.

bottomline, were animals like every other species on the planet. just much smarter (or so we think)

this is just my opinion tho :justdontknow:

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InvisibleTTT
Cultivate the inside
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Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 4,340
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Atheist]
    #7322006 - 08/22/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I dont believe that god is a greater being that created the world.

God in that sense to me doesnt exist.

It seems silly to think so, in my opinion.

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InvisibleTTT
Cultivate the inside
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Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 4,340
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Atheist]
    #7322009 - 08/22/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SpicyTunaRoll said:
this is why i dont believe in god (it is similar to the reasoning in your story)

there is WAAAAAY too much suffering on this planet. some of the worst things happen to the best people.

its just the way it is. some bad people get away with rape and murder. it just life.

bottomline, were animals like every other species on the planet. just much smarter (or so we think)

this is just my opinion tho :justdontknow:



Agreed

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OfflineSCleROTiUM_LICK
ResearchedFiction Writer


Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 884
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: rsimoa]
    #7322091 - 08/22/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Ummmm.... You start out condemning a god that would allow a little girl to be raped and then it seems you end up shrugging your shoulders at "gods" that would do this just to see how far a person could be pushed. Does having more than one god make this type of evil any less repulsive? I think not.

And if you originally thought that God was asking you to deal with evil in a certain way, with a certain attitude, lets say...
and decided that you didn't want to be part of that game,
why on earth would you accept gods looking for your breaking point and want to endure so as to prolong that experiment?

It really seems as if you have simply said to yourself: Suffering is inescapeable. I can't pray it away. Therefore, it MUST be accepted as part of a cosmic plan. And, it would also seem, you never stopped believing in God so much as you decided to given him the cold shoulder for awhile.


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InvisibleLayzie
Me So sLeeepy!
Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 174
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: suave]
    #7322443 - 08/22/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

my life is great.. the shithole im refering to is this planet ,resources going byebye, morality of people now adays ect.. not my life in general. and its not opinion its actual fact =)

of course if your rich you could sit back and see this planet as heavenous but turn on the news of deaths, murders,wars, 12 yearolds having more sexual partners than i have had. but ya im done rambling off topic =p

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OfflineSCleROTiUM_LICK
ResearchedFiction Writer


Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 884
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Layzie]
    #7322476 - 08/22/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, 12 year olds having more sex than me always gets my goat!


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OfflineDiamonds808
New love formushies.
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Registered: 07/12/07
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Re: What I think I learned... [Re: ZShroom]
    #7323652 - 08/22/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ZShroom said:
Ok but why not, I mean your GOD created your rapists and ur murders? I mean like someone in this post just said if there is a God that created EVERYTHING, like most all religons say then God must have created or dealt with evil! Bottom line- If god created free will then God manifested evil in human beings hereby making him the "devil"! I just dont get it and everybody has something diff. to say about this subject. It really pisses me off, and stops/slows my mental growth. Maybe it is just a problem we will never figure out. Also my good enlightened friend chris told me that he read in a brain science magazine that somehow scientists found in studies that the human "soul"/ consciousness exsists for 15 mins. after death. Weird not sure how they know this but not sure if I believe at all.:bongload::1up:




Would you rather not have free will?  Would you rather be forced to serve God?  Forced to believe in whatever he tells you to?  Or would you rather have free will?  Free will was one of the best gifts God has given to us and instead of being GRATEFUL you call him the devil.

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Offlinekimikiri
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Aboard an alien vessel
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Diamonds808]
    #7324063 - 08/23/07 12:05 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I think there a quite a few ways to look at this debate...

1. Good without evil. This is a debate that stretches way back into ancient times... I think one of the great philosophers said it best(and the name escapes me atm) "a painting cannot truly be beautiful unless it contain both elements of light and dark." I see a lot of people crying about suffering... How could life be good unless there was some bad? How would we know right from wrong unless sometimes things went wrong? Utopia is not meant for here and now.

2. Free will. God gave us all free will... it is up to us to create a society that rewards good and punishes evil. Im not saying any culture has ever done this the right way... but some are trying. Free will is such an awesome concept that I dont think we all truly understand what it entails.

3. God as the "devil". God made us in "his" image. He is proud of us and wants the best for us. This doesnt mean he has to make life easy for us. Look at Paris Hilton... wasnt she set up with everything she ever needed? Maybe God knows that just giving into our every need and desire will not make us stronger, but only ruin us.



Just some thoughts...


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Those who would sacrifice their freedoms for securities deserve neither, and will soon lose both.

-Benjamin Franklin

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Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: kimikiri]
    #7324342 - 08/23/07 01:45 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


1. Good without evil. This is a debate that stretches way back into ancient times... I think one of the great philosophers said it best(and the name escapes me atm) "a painting cannot truly be beautiful unless it contain both elements of light and dark." I see a lot of people crying about suffering... How could life be good unless there was some bad? How would we know right from wrong unless sometimes things went wrong? Utopia is not meant for here and now.




Well there is nothing to prove that you need to know bad to know good. I know the Sun feels good on my face without having to feel a freezing wind. I know how to Love another being without having to ever hate one. I know Icecream taste Good without needing to eat shit. Even if there is a need for some bad or suffering, you have to wonder what the need is for the holocaust, for the inquisition, and all of the other terrible events that have marked history.

Quote:


2. Free will. God gave us all free will... it is up to us to create a society that rewards good and punishes evil. Im not saying any culture has ever done this the right way... but some are trying. Free will is such an awesome concept that I dont think we all truly understand what it entails.




In that case you see God as a non interventionist God, ok fair enough, but the price of that free will is exceptional. Remember also that we are blind to God in our natural state.

Quote:


3. God as the "devil". God made us in "his" image. He is proud of us and wants the best for us. This doesnt mean he has to make life easy for us. Look at Paris Hilton... wasnt she set up with everything she ever needed? Maybe God knows that just giving into our every need and desire will not make us stronger, but only ruin us.




In that case God is not all Love, he hates, his is Jealous (as he said in the OT) he is petty, wages war etc etc. Looks at man and look at his world and his history. If we where created in God's image then it doesn't say allot about God.


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Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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Offlinekimikiri
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 388
Loc: Aboard an alien vessel
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7324401 - 08/23/07 02:16 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtripper said:
Quote:


1. Good without evil. This is a debate that stretches way back into ancient times... I think one of the great philosophers said it best(and the name escapes me atm) "a painting cannot truly be beautiful unless it contain both elements of light and dark." I see a lot of people crying about suffering... How could life be good unless there was some bad? How would we know right from wrong unless sometimes things went wrong? Utopia is not meant for here and now.




Well there is nothing to prove that you need to know bad to know good. I know the Sun feels good on my face without having to feel a freezing wind. I know how to Love another being without having to ever hate one. I know Icecream taste Good without needing to eat shit. Even if there is a need for some bad or suffering, you have to wonder what the need is for the holocaust, for the inquisition, and all of the other terrible events that have marked history.

Quote:


2. Free will. God gave us all free will... it is up to us to create a society that rewards good and punishes evil. Im not saying any culture has ever done this the right way... but some are trying. Free will is such an awesome concept that I dont think we all truly understand what it entails.




In that case you see God as a non interventionist God, ok fair enough, but the price of that free will is exceptional. Remember also that we are blind to God in our natural state.

Quote:


3. God as the "devil". God made us in "his" image. He is proud of us and wants the best for us. This doesnt mean he has to make life easy for us. Look at Paris Hilton... wasnt she set up with everything she ever needed? Maybe God knows that just giving into our every need and desire will not make us stronger, but only ruin us.




In that case God is not all Love, he hates, his is Jealous (as he said in the OT) he is petty, wages war etc etc. Looks at man and look at his world and his history. If we where created in God's image then it doesn't say allot about God.





1. Dont be foolish.. you know that the sun feels good only because you HAVE felt the freezing wind.

Your whole argument falls apart...

The Holocaust and Inquisition were both man made. And both of them were fostered from groups of people who thought themselves "perfect", or at least were striving towards a state of "perfection".

To be human is to sin.


2. I have no idea where you are trying to go with this.

To be truly blind is to see things from a "new" angle.

3. I am very disturbed about this whole "OT" crowd. God set the rules in the "OT". He saw that we failed constantly... He sent Jesus. Jesus made the "NEW" rules... read the "NT".


You will be surprised.


--------------------
Those who would sacrifice their freedoms for securities deserve neither, and will soon lose both.

-Benjamin Franklin

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Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: kimikiri]
    #7324430 - 08/23/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

1. Dont be foolish.. you know that the sun feels good only because you HAVE felt the freezing wind.

Your whole argument falls apart...




Absolutely not. I don't need to feel the freezing wind to know the Sun feels Good at all. I don't need to feel hot water to know what cold water feels like. Take the life of Buddha, he lived in a perfect world without suffering for the first part of his life, then when he saw suffering he was so shocked that he wrote that Life is Suffering and to escape suffering we need to escape desire and escape incarnation.

There are many people that haven't suffered, children, baby animals etc who know happiness, perhaps after they suffer they may then know it is not good to suffer, but they don't need to suffer in order to know happiness, that is just wrong.
Quote:


The Holocaust and Inquisition were both man made. And both of them were fostered from groups of people who thought themselves "perfect", or at least were striving towards a state of "perfection".




To be human is to sin.




Why would we sin if we are made in Gods image though ?

Yes they where man made, by man who you say is made in God's image.

What about disease is that made by man ? How many billions of creatures have suffered a slow death at the hands of a disease. Look at the whole picture, not just the pretty bits.


Quote:


2. I have no idea where you are trying to go with this.

To be truly blind is to see things from a "new" angle.





To be truly blind is to be lost. Perhaps that is why man does what is does ... he is lost.

Quote:


3. I am very disturbed about this whole "OT" crowd. God set the rules in the "OT". He saw that we failed constantly... He sent Jesus. Jesus made the "NEW" rules... read the "NT".






So what about the OT ? That was all a mistake made by God ? The stuff in job ? The wars that God commanded, the 'take thy women for thyselves', the eternal punishment for the actions of 2 of his beings ? The flood that drowned almost every living thing ... that God admitted was wrong and promised never to do again ? If you are referring to the same God in NT and OT then how could such a perfect God take such actions and make such mistakes.

Maybe Jesus sees a different God to the OT God. Agreed that the NT isn't nearly as harsh as the OT.


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Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: cloudtripper]
    #7324467 - 08/23/07 03:22 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

A baby is suffering the moment it's born... confused, cold, terrified, hungry, and blind. How can you sugarcoat reality like that?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offlineretrospect
Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1,340
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7324516 - 08/23/07 04:43 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

i am unsure where my beliefs lye. but here is what ive been told.

with free will comes suffering. the more selfish humans became over the years the worse it got. we are at an all time peak of selfishness and thus at an all time peak of suffering.

god gave us free will. without free will where would we be - robots forced to do good and love god. what point is that? our thoughts would be programmed, it would make life pointless

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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: retrospect]
    #7324531 - 08/23/07 05:14 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

ifit wasnt for free will we would have no life, thats why i think intelligent life is the highest form of life becasue we can ask these questions.

bacteria may survive longer but it does what it does, we do what we want.

you could go out and rape and kill sumone if you want, its your choice god has nothing to do with it.

god is EVERYTHING not a him or her, so the only god who has power to "stop" anything is you.


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InvisibleZShroom
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Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Chronic7]
    #7324799 - 08/23/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I am also unsure where my beliefs lye but ok let me get this theory straight...God made free will, which made life exciting, and sometimes very very painful? Oh and to all the christians, u really crack me up...u believe that the god that is the creator of our image as him has created me to walk though a world where the devil can truly FUCK ME UP and if I dont realize whats going on within my lifetime even if i am not to smart or maybe even retarded I am going to hell for eternity...just dont believe in that...and yeah read the old testiment. U wanna be a part of a god that does things like a stupid human on this planet worring about materalistic problems. Pretty stupid god worring about human problems on a physical plane that "he, she it" does not exsist in. Now when all the christians hear this I would love if you would go where u normally go on sunday to compare clothes with ur friends and pray to the god that has never changed anything except how much money "he she it" will need for whatever u crazy creationists build with hard working peoples money. which by the way is the root of all "evil". So i guess thats why god never has enough and wants you to go get it for him...I dont understand, he created this earth, all of us, has infinite life and love....but hmmmmmm he just never has enough money.....lol.....stupid:bongload::1up::shrug::rofl:


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InvisibleMourningdove
Stranger
Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 399
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: ZShroom]
    #7324998 - 08/23/07 09:44 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps learning to accept death as a transition and not the end makes such suffering easy to understand. Being born is about as turbulant as death...

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Invisiblecloudtripper
Knock and theDoor will open
Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 175
Re: What I think I learned... [Re: Mourningdove]
    #7325064 - 08/23/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Why ? It dosn't make the suffering any less while we are here ?

As for free will, it's not completly free since we don't have the ability to know where we came from or where we will go to, it is free will within certain limits.


--------------------
Always come back again. Never come back the same.

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