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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
A New Hope
    #663341 - 06/04/02 08:33 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The purpose of this thread is for like-mided shroomerites to discuss various issues we feel are important in this modern age where the American leaders have overstepped their bounds locally, internationally, and globally.

Those who post here are like-minded in that we wish to no longer remain stationary with our frustrations over wrong-doings being perpetuated by this American governement.

Discussion contained here-in will be limited to the following:

1) Things we feel the American government has done/is doing that negatively impacts the American nation, an American state, or the International peoples of the Earth.

2) Ways in which we, as individuals and together, can effect change and turn the negative impact of the America into positive counter balance.

Flames and off-topic discourse will not be tolerated and, as topic starter, I hereby grant any moderator full power to completely EDIT out and remove any post which does not conform to these guidelines.

Posting herein is acknowledgement that you will adhere to these guidelines and that any violation of these guidelines will result in your post-reply being DELETED from this master-post.

If you do not agree with any of the guidelines, you must post elsewhere within this forum, the suggestion forum, or OTD, whichever you feel more comforatable with.

Hopefully, this post will blossom to bring ideas and like minded individuals together in productive manner.

Good Luck, let's begin.

This thread is for activists and those intersted in activism.....this is not OTD. Please respect the members of this community who wish to discuss these politically charged topics in this, the political forum.

We all bring something to this tale of discussion. As such, there are no leaders or followers; only participants.



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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Registered: 06/01/02
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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #663353 - 06/04/02 08:52 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Very Cool!

Here's a link to Robert's Rules of Order in case we need to figure out anything procedurally.

"Civil disobedience is civil defense!"

-- Thoreau


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Papaver]
    #663415 - 06/04/02 10:33 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I'd hate to have to argue like a lawyer, jeez, all the remembering of official argument, however pgf, you may be a little too nazi like in your opinion of leftist activism at this board. Some right wing minded people really need to express their right wing views to convince leftists of how they feel. We should'nt stop them, and they should'nt stop us. And hopefully we can all get together with both sides to create a working solution to what the main "base" of rightism and leftism represent, because so many people obviously feel the same about the same issues. Earlier I was discussing with this dude of how the internet is a tool to express opinoins to like minded individuals, so that they can communicate better outside the internet, is a good plan, never should we abandon those who wish to explain their viewpoints online, and outside the internet, otherwise we will never really have a large opinoin of what's right or wrong.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: nugsarenice]
    #663597 - 06/05/02 04:07 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well I never thought I of all people would be on the same side as PGF, but in this case I stand behind him 110%. It's obvious many people don't want to believe there is any sort of problem with the government..I am not one of them.

I look forward to discussing ideas with like minded individuals instead of constantly defending my views against people that haven't done any research except for what they hear on Fox news...

The evidence mounting against good ol' Dubya is even starting to make it's way into mainstream media, and hopefully it's only a matter of time before the truth (or at least something that resembles it) comes out...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Rono]
    #663741 - 06/05/02 06:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

> It's obvious many people don't want to believe there is any sort of problem with the government..I am not one of them.

I agree, and personally, I would like to focus on the problem of overall apathy -- as I think that's the seminal issue -- rather than just bashing whatever the current administration happens to be because it's an easy target. I think we have a great system, here in America, but I believe there to be too much apathy and mindless servitude to corporate America by a consumer culture mentality (e.g. "As long I can get a big screen TV, so I can passively view acts of terrorism better, everything will be OK").

I think if we could all get a little more in touch with our proper place in nature and the human community, we?d be a lot better. I think that communities such as this are a good thing, as we have really become isolated because of our luxuries, and this forum allows us to reach out to each other and discuss/debate important issues. I have no problem with dissenting points of view, in fact I welcome them, so long as they?re well thought out and impassioned.

I think one thing PGF may be trying to avoid is the sort of -- "You?re a big homo. Oh yeah, so?s your mother. Yeah, you and who?s army? And the horse you rode in on!" -- kind of flame wars which seem to crop up, and have no specific benefit to the discussion thread, and should be kept in the OTD. I also realize he?s searching to build a consensus, but I reserve my right to dissent when ever my conscience dictates, and I think that will be respected here.

My big issue will be apathy, which I think is the reason this thread got started.

"I believe in a complete open democracy, and I also think the American system can work."

-- Woody Allen



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InvisiblePGF
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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #663787 - 06/05/02 07:04 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The government propaganda machine is very powerful. It's resources are virtually limitless. What it does with these resources can only be held in check by very strong public opposition.

Public opposition to the government's misinformation campaign can only be gained if the public is informed. Talking to friend's, family, co-workers, etc., about your ideas only goes so far.

I propose we all collaborate on an short essay/editorial and send it to major newspapers in and around our respective areas. This will allow a message to reach a large and diverse population.

This does not need to be a collaboration. However, if one person pens the editorial, permission must be given to each of us to use our own names and addresses when sending to newspapers. Most newspapers will not publish an editorial unlss they can somehow verify that the writer is in residence in the community.

Possible topics could be:
1) Bush administration's knowledge of 9-11 attacks prior to attacks
2) Role of oil in the curent campaign in Afghanistan
3) Possible underlying motives for the US's next military venture into Iraq

etc......any ideas are welcomed, of course

This could be an ongoing work. Hopefully, we can mass several editorials together and send them monthly, or even bi-monthly.



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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #663849 - 06/05/02 07:50 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

This is a great idea and definately a step in the right direction.

papaver brings up a brilliant point about apathy. Many, many people simply do not care what their government does. They will refuse to believe simple fact if it means giving up the things that provide them comfort and self worth.

This is why our target demographic should be the young. Those that have not yet begun a lifetime of enslavement to a machine that commits atrocities to provide for its citizens.

Women are also a powerful ally. If they believe in something there is no stopping their agenda. We need to get on Oprah.

That's a half-joke of course because ABC would never let our views be aired, but still women are a powerful ally in causing change.

EDIT: PAPAVER AND NOT NUGSARENICE TALKED ABOUT APATHY.

CREDIT WHERE ITS DUE AND ALL


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


Edited by Senor_Doobie (06/05/02 05:52 PM)


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #663855 - 06/05/02 07:54 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

You make some very good points!

> We need to get on Oprah. That's a half-joke of course because ABC would never let our views be aired?

I bet we could get on Jenny Jones though...


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #663857 - 06/05/02 07:55 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Doobie, I'm somewhat surprised to see you here...it seemed that you could not get enough of bashing my opinions recently...but that has changed for some reason...perhaps because PGF is saying the same things?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Rono]
    #663865 - 06/05/02 08:02 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Actually...I apologize Doobie, regardless of your reasoning I'm glad you are contributing.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Rono]
    #663887 - 06/05/02 08:13 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Rest assured, me and Doobie do not always see eye to eye.

I think he will be a tremendous accet to what we are trying to do here.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #663942 - 06/05/02 08:50 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Is the WOD a topic for discussion or is that for another time?


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Revelation]
    #663948 - 06/05/02 08:59 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

If you would like to incorporate an editorial on the government's WOD tht would be fine. I think it might be important to mention that keeping drugs illegal keeps large sums of money flowing into the pockets of the powerful in this country.

I would certianly be willingot forward a good editorial on the WOD to my local papers.

Would you want to collaborate or write one on your own?


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #663972 - 06/05/02 09:14 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well I could give it a shot, although having never done anything like this i'm not sure what kind of structure it should have. I'd be willing to give it a go though. What kind of length are we talking about?


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Revelation]
    #663997 - 06/05/02 09:34 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Generally, big newspapers do not like to print LONG editorials because it takes up too much space.

A few paragraphs.....depends. Grab a paper and see what length of editorial is being accepted by the editor. I'll do the same.


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #664001 - 06/05/02 09:37 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I think that's a great idea pgf, however for some east coast, and mainland mainland livers, they would probraly have to start publishing thier own paper. However where I live, local newspapers abide, and thrive, so getting an editorial is no problem I would love to collobarate together on a preventative Iraq War piece, the 9/11 piece is too controversial, because it involves then main bruntd of demonic philsophy so accurately coined and execuated on a daily basis by bush and his croinies on televsion, (also the demonic supporters ) that of revenge. You cannot argue philosphy with people, however you can argue politics.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #664026 - 06/05/02 09:52 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The letters page is probably the way to go, anywhere from 200-600 words. I'll write to a couple of the main newspapers here in the UK...make this an international effort


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Revelation]
    #664072 - 06/05/02 10:12 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Well I'll cetainly do what I can from a Canadian perspective....It's good that we have Europe and Canadian reps...since much of the information is apparently not released in the U.S.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Rono]
    #664085 - 06/05/02 10:17 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Doobie, I'm somewhat surprised to see you here...it seemed that you could not get enough of bashing my opinions recently...but that has changed for some reason...perhaps because PGF is saying the same things?"


Actually, I read that timeline, weighed it, and can no longer deny the situation.

I don't blame you for judging me, but I don't see any reason to let our differences get in the way of potentially doing something.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Rono]
    #664095 - 06/05/02 10:22 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

"Well I'll cetainly do what I can from a Canadian perspective....It's good that we have Europe and Canadian reps...since much of the information is apparently not released in the U.S. "

So true. You guys are definately our eyes and ears. If you hear anything negative about the Bush administration, the war, or the US in general, you should assume we're not hearing it.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #664097 - 06/05/02 10:24 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Doobie my friend, Bad things is ALL we hear about the Bush administration...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Rono]
    #664123 - 06/05/02 10:40 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

FBI whistleblower quizzed
By THOMAS FERRARO

WASHINGTON - - Congressional staff members arranged to question an FBI whistle-blower on Wednesday while a former head of the CIA's counterterrorism center prepared to testify as the first witness in a probe of the failure of U.S. intelligence to thwart the Sept. 11 attacks, aides said.

The FBI and CIA are the subject of the probe by the Senate and House intelligence committees after a string of disclosures that they failed to share information that could have warned of the attacks, and the Bush administration has been criticized for not being open enough about what it knew.

Some committee staffers headed to the FBI's headquarters in Washington on Wednesday to interview Coleen Rowley, a Minneapolis agent who has been critical of the agency's brass, while others briefed the committees on Capitol Hill on the information they had collected since beginning to prepare for the joint probe in February.

Staffers have interviewed hundreds of personnel from the CIA, FBI and other federal agencies and have also reviewed hundreds of thousands of pages of documents since they began to prepare for the joint House-Senate probe in February.

Rowley complained in a May 21 letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller that FBI headquarters should have approved a request from its Minneapolis office for a search warrant involving Zacarias Moussaoui, who was being held in August after arousing suspicions at a Minnesota flight school.

Moussaoui was in custody in Minnesota when the September attacks occurred but was charged in December with conspiring to carry out the attacks. Authorities suspect he intended to join the 19 men who hijacked four passenger planes that day.

In the 13-page letter, Rowley said FBI officials in Washington "continued to, almost inexplicably, throw up roadblocks and undermine" efforts to obtain a warrant .

Separately, Cofer Black, a 27-year veteran of the CIA and head of its counterterrorism center in September, may be called before a closed-door meeting of the intelligence committees of the Senate and House of Representatives as early as Thursday, aides said.

Black, 52, who a decade ago helped capture guerrilla leader "Carlos the Jackal," was head of the Counterterrorist Center at the CIA on Sept. 11. As part of a normal rotation, he recently finished a three-year stint in the post and now awaits another senior assignment.

Congressional aides said Black's appearance before the intelligence committees may be delayed until next week if the panels determine they need more time to be briefed by their own staffers about the Sept. 11 attacks that killed about 3,000 people in New York, outside Washington and in Pennsylvania.

Both Rowley and Mueller are to make separate appearance on Thursday before the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Rowley is expected to be called as a witness before the intelligence committees, but no date has been set.

Mueller is expected to testify before the intelligence committees the week of June 24 when the hearings are expected to be open to the public.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: A New Hope [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #664386 - 06/05/02 01:37 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting Link on news misinformation in the US
http://www.hermes-press.com/nonews.htm
more stuff
http://www.cursor.org/


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #664490 - 06/05/02 02:56 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Great idea, PGF, you have my support.

I hope that posters of all views feel comfortable posting their ideas here. That no-flaming rule is good because it works both ways.

I completely agree with papaver that apathy is a major, fundamental concern. It's also an area we can all agree on, right, left, up, down, whatever. --At least, all of us within the paradigm of democracy, which is designed to empower the people.

I would be interested in reading some varying views of this problem, what it entails, how to address it, etc.

hongomon



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Offlinezepphead
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Re: A New Hope [Re: PGF]
    #664960 - 06/05/02 07:32 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

granted there are definately problems with our government, however, would you still not agree that america has the most sufficient government, per capita, its a hell of a lot easier to govern a few 100 thousand than it is a couple billion. our government will never reach perfection, we have to live with that.

i am always for pressing the issues that i'm concerned with, but as a whole our democracy is not that bad.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: zepphead]
    #667343 - 06/07/02 10:17 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Another excellent link with references...

Finishing the Jigsaw Puzzle


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: A New Hope [Re: zepphead]
    #667370 - 06/07/02 10:38 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed. Democracy is a system that offers power to the people. And now, we see that it doesn't guarantee power to the people. It doesn't empower apathy.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A New Hope [Re: hongomon]
    #667387 - 06/07/02 10:55 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The US is not a democracy.

It is a constitutional republic.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: A New Hope [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #667706 - 06/07/02 03:06 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

There's a difference between "democracy" and "a democracy." You don't mean there's no democracy in the U.S., do you?


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: A New Hope [Re: hongomon]
    #668119 - 06/07/02 09:42 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Hongomon said > Democracy is a system that offers power to the people. And now, we see that it doesn't guarantee power to the people. It doesn't empower apathy.

IMHO an Excellent Point!!!

luvdemshrooms said > The US is not a democracy. It is a constitutional republic.

True, but our votes still count in an abstract (once or twice removed) sort of way, and I think we need to remember this and not become disillusioned.

I also think, that as a consumer-driven economy, we have a great deal of democratic power in the marketplace. In a lot of ways corporations run the show, and they?re not subject to election, but they are subject to making a profit and this is where we have some power.



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