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Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinesirbojangles
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Learning Math
    #6628525 - 03/02/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i didnt post this in the philosophy section so that it actually gets read, but....

in learning math do you think it is possible that, because of an altered perception...or pure sobriety...one can learn mathematical operations without being taught.

like if a fifth grader (hypothetically some sort of prodigy) was given precalculus or physics math without ever studying or even having access to the information could he solve equations for the pure fact that, math is such an ancient and profoud(yet strangley contemporary) human concept that the knowledge is embedded on our evolutionary prgression or in the unified membrane of consciousness (in "waking life (2001)" with the couple in bed).

OR...(no more pleaseee) could it be a religious (not to say unscientific) divine force (like the whole math thing with the hebrew bible) that is inherited by god's creation of humanity.

i feal a bit smart right now...(im fuckin STONED) so that is weird............too much acid


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OfflineGreenScreen
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Re: Learning Math [Re: sirbojangles]
    #6628567 - 03/02/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think if a fifth grader were given calculus or physics that they could give an answer. I doubt it would look like much more to them than numbers with some other strange shapes. You can't answer a question if you don't know what it's asking.

I don't know about inherently knowing the ideas behind math though.


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OfflineWasteland
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Re: Learning Math [Re: sirbojangles]
    #6628568 - 03/02/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

It took many years of study to come onto the equations that are written and handed down through education.

Possible, but very unlikely.


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The Mad Shroomer said:
People are always promising the apocalypse. They never deliver. :frown:


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InvisibleUbermensch
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Re: Learning Math [Re: sirbojangles]
    #6628618 - 03/02/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I wouldn't bet that human ability to comprehend mathimatical concepts is genetic. Are you talking about complex concepts? People without prior math experience could probably understand addition. Calculus? Unlikely.

As far as math being a divine force: Mathematical concepts are found in nature (ie fibonacci sequence). Whether or not they are a mechanism of God or, for example, the most effective route chosen by life is uncertain.


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Once the sin against God was the greatest sin; but God has died, and those sinners died with him. To sin against the earth is now the most dreadful sin, and to esteem the entrails of the unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth!


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Learning Math [Re: Ubermensch]
    #6628894 - 03/02/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I'm studying math at college and recently I've had a similar take on things. The world is relating to maths. Every single motion / plant / building / part of our existence conforms to maths.

Maths is very natural.. maths is our (human) understanding of our perception of the universe.

I've found myself studying into maths with a lot keener interest lately..

If you have an open enough mind anyone can do math ... its like a second language we all know.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Learning Math [Re: sirbojangles]
    #6628936 - 03/02/07 05:30 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I am also studying math and I have to say what you posted makes no sense to me. There is no knowledge of math embedded in our genes. We evolved the skills we have in order to find food on the African Savannah. The fact that we can do math at all is simply a (welcome) by product of these skills.

Remember math is an invention of man. It just happens that some of it can approximate phenomenon in the universe to a high degree. Thats why we study, learn and propagate it.


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: Learning Math [Re: sirbojangles]
    #6628956 - 03/02/07 05:34 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

This may not be an answer but it might help...

When I started college I was given a Math Placement test to see what math classes I should take. I had only taken algebra and geometry in highschool with some very light physics. I took the placement exam and tested out of calculous. Its not that I know calculous but there are some things in the equations that led me to elimate certain answers on the multiple choice exam. Its not that I can do calculous its that I can use deductive reasoning to rule out WRONG answers.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Learning Math [Re: AaronEvil]
    #6628982 - 03/02/07 05:40 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I am curious, you tested out of Calc I right, not out of Calc III or advanced Calc.?

Also, what does the word calculus mean to you?


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Learning Math [Re: DieCommie]
    #6629142 - 03/02/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I am also studying math and I have to say what you posted makes no sense to me. There is no knowledge of math embedded in our genes. We evolved the skills we have in order to find food on the African Savannah. The fact that we can do math at all is simply a (welcome) by product of these skills.

Remember math is an invention of man. It just happens that some of it can approximate phenomenon in the universe to a high degree. Thats why we study, learn and propagate it.




I agree with this fully, but once you have an education of maths you can see how it all applies to the world as well (I do study physics as well and I use maths to cover an array of things here .. such as basic physics like kinematics etc)

Fundamentally, math is our understanding of the world around us. Absolutely everything we do in this modern world relates to maths.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Learning Math [Re: Cepheus]
    #6629197 - 03/02/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Absolutely everything we do in this modern world relates to maths.



That may be your opinion, but there is not a mathematical for everything in the world/universe. Any easy example is love, which we have no math for. That doesn't mean there is no love equation, we just havent invented an adequate one yet.

Also, you mention physics. Most most physical situations are modeled by non-linear differential equations, which are not solvable (yet... mathematicians, get to work!).

I think there is more to understanding the world around us than just math... But thats just my opinion.

I do agree with you in general... most phenomena relate to math. But math falls woefully short of providing a concise and complete description of the universe. Some people think it can, some think it cant. But its undisputed that at the moment it does not.


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OfflinePinballWizard
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Registered: 03/20/04
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Re: Learning Math [Re: sirbojangles]
    #6629215 - 03/02/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sirbojangles said:
like if a fifth grader (hypothetically some sort of prodigy) was given precalculus or physics math without ever studying or even having access to the information could he solve equations for the pure fact that, math is such an ancient and profoud(yet strangley contemporary) human concept that the knowledge is embedded on our evolutionary prgression or in the unified membrane of consciousness




Hahaha when you said that I thought of that same scene. I think the problem would be interpreting the symbols, such as sine or [ ], but I think they could possibly understand the concepts.


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Learning Math [Re: DieCommie]
    #6629234 - 03/02/07 06:44 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Absolutely everything we do in this modern world relates to maths.



That may be your opinion, but there is not a mathematical for everything in the world/universe. Any easy example is love, which we have no math for. That doesn't mean there is no love equation, we just havent invented an adequate one yet.

Also, you mention physics. Most most physical situations are modeled by non-linear differential equations, which are not solvable (yet... mathematicians, get to work!).

I think there is more to understanding the world around us than just math... But thats just my opinion.

I do agree with you in general... most phenomena relate to math. But math falls woefully short of providing a concise and complete description of the universe. Some people think it can, some think it cant. But its undisputed that at the moment it does not.




Once again, I agree with this. Maths is our language of understanding. Obviously we still have a lot of work to do on it. It will never be 100% correct, but from a human perspective it sure makes understanding what little we know about the universe easier.

Its just our nature to label everything. Maths is an attempt at that.

I recently had to do a piece of physics work on a falling ball. It was very interesting (considering it was such a horseshit assignment). We can work out so much by quantifying it and giving it numbers, and then these numbers correlate to the phenomena directly.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

Open Source. Freedom.  GNU/Linux

Addicting is not a word.


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OfflineSymmetryGroup8
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Re: Learning Math [Re: Cepheus]
    #6629303 - 03/02/07 07:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

To me mathematics can be thought of as a way describing things precisely in a rigorous way.

I believe that some people can be born with amazing natural aptitude for math (Gauss etc...). This may or may not be linked to genetics. Think about some savant's ability to do amazing computations in their heads, I remember watching a show about this dude who computes in his head by seeing numbers as colors! It's still an area that we do not understand fully. Why are some people born with the abilities to do amazing computations?

Overall tho, studying math still requires old fashioned hard work.

I'm not a good math student, but I get by. I'm constantly amazed by the abilities of my peers. Things seem so easy for them takes me a while to do usually.

These days math are about lots of generalities, abstractions etc... Back in the 18 century people were into studying special functions... One can often spend years on one special function! They did some truly amazing work back then.

I'm doing intermediate differential equation right now, we're following the steps of the likes of Euler, really amazing once you think about it.


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Be like water my friend!


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OfflineSymmetryGroup8
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Re: Learning Math [Re: SymmetryGroup8]
    #6629314 - 03/02/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think a 5 year will be able to do calculus if he never learned the concepts of calculus.

If he actually learned calculus and understood it, yeah!

Just saw this on the news, some 8 year old kid got 800 on his math SAT.


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Be like water my friend!


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