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 susej
we like cheese.
Registered: 05/20/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
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 What do shroom actually *do*? 
#662416 - 06/04/02 09:41 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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So what do mushrooms do to you physically? It's a poison, right? What actually happens? What makes you hallicinate?
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too_many_weirdos
it's a jungle inhere
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 517
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#662448 - 06/04/02 09:59 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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no, shrooms (more specifically psiloc(yb)in) are not a poison.
the chemical, psilocin, and its close cousin psilocybin act as non-specific seritonin receptor agonist. Meaning, they excite, or stimulate, a whole bunch of different seritonin receptors in the brain. I think it is believed that the 2b (or is it 2a) sites are what are responsible for the psychedelic activity. other seritonin receptors regulate things such as blood pressure, vaso-dialation/constriction, digestion, nausea, pupil size, etc.
i hope that was clear enough...
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Food
---Beast---
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 Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#663454 - 06/05/02 12:45 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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No Satan ah I mean susej they are not a poison, they are a biological entity containing chemicals very similar to ones which naturally occur in human brains, if one eats fresh shrooms on a full stomach one can feel sick and might feel as though he/she is being poisened .
But medically speaking in terms of toxicity and overdose shrooms are very safe .
Chemically, Psilocyn is very similar to seratonin , and it is thought that Psilocybin breaks down to become Psilocyn - the two have identical properties in terms of effects on the human mind .
Uuurrm uh .
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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Food
---Beast---
Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 390
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Food]
#663455 - 06/05/02 12:46 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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By the two I mean Psilocybin and Psilocyn .
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--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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 NeiL
member
Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 151
Loc: Scotland, UK
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Food]
#663809 - 06/05/02 07:20 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wrote this in reply to a previous, similar post-
The mechanism of action (?) of Psilocybin is known (the drug molecule is a modified form of the seretonin molecule, so it acts very strongly at specific types of seretonin receptors (5HT2), more strongly and specifically for those receptors than normal brain seretonin would) however, why this has the intense and profound effects on our perception of reality that it does, is unclear- due to our rather incomplete understanding of the relationship between brain structure and conciousness. I have seen mentioned that this artificial stimulation causes altered rythmic firing of neurons in the brain. In certain types of Epilepsy, characterised by altered rythmic firing in specific brain areas, there are accounts of altered states of conciousness, seeing god, hallucinations etc... Also, i think a lot of the receptors that psilocybin acts on are in the visual areas of the brain, specifically those dealing with edges, lines etc... hence the fractal CEVs etc... Oh i dunno, it's all mad, crazy and very, very interesting. I know a fair bit more and have a lot more ideas than i could write down here though, as me being able to make sense would involve a lot of rambling and waving my hands about furiously. The bottom line is, there is absolutely no way to come up with a simplification of how shrooms work. Last time i tripped i got into a big discussion about all this, had my Biochemistry/ Pharmacology textbooks all spread out all over the floor, lots of frantic gesturing,hand waving, pacing, beard stroking. Great fun 
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why
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#663941 - 06/05/02 08:49 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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>So what do mushrooms do to you physically? It's a poison, right?
why certain mushroom species produce psilocybin isn't known, it may be a poison or it could be made for some other reason.
your body may well choose to reject them as if they were a poison
my own opinion is that psilocybin (and other psychedelic drugs) are poisons in that they disrupt the 'normal' function of the brain: - there is a lessening of the sense of 'ego' or 'self'. It may well be that you can understand what receptors the psilocin binds to, or why people see geometric patterns under the influence but those sorts of questions (tho important) are a distraction. The real question is why does a lessening of the sense of 'self' sometimes cause a religous or mystical experience? and are such experiences real or delusion?
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NeiL
member
Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 151
Loc: Scotland, UK
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: why]
#663959 - 06/05/02 09:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I agree with you, although really that is kind of what i was implying is the gaping hole in our understanding of their effects and experience in general- our understanding of the connection between events on a structural/functional/cellular level and the subjective experience of conciousness (in this case, a religious/ mystical experience).
I don't agree with you that "what receptors the psilocin binds to, or why people see geometric patterns under the influence" neccesarily distracts from some sort of path to higher knowledge of conciousness- everything is interconnected, whether conciousness resides to whatever extent on a quantum/ spiritual plane, at some level there is an interaction between this plane and the material plane for the drugs to achieve their alteration of conciousness (if that makes any sense?!?)- the only way such questions could distract is if research is not carried out in an
open-minded way and these issues are ignored.
Whether or not psilocybin/ psilocin are poisons just depends on your subjective definition of what a poison is- i think the important thing in answer to this question is that they have low toxicity and thus an almost non-existant chance of causing death by themselves. Whether or not they have dangers to sanity and whether this increases their qualification as a poison is a whole other and probably pointless argument.
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dirk gently
enthusiast
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: why]
#663963 - 06/05/02 09:10 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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It depends on how you define "poison" really. Psilocin is pretty benign from a purely toxicological perspective. But it still may be considered a poison in some respects because it disrupts normal body function (higher nervous system mainly).
Many, many mushrooms produce toxic compounds which we call poisonous. This is not by accident. They evolved to produce them as a defense mechanism. Psilocin/cybin have no known function for any life cycle parameters in psilocybe mushrooms. So maybe they were originally poisons for some lower animal species. Most simple organisms don't have nervous systems that would even respond in one way or another to serotonin like compounds.
So is it a happy coincidence or some kind of devine intervention? 
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why
journeyman
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: NeiL]
#665391 - 06/06/02 05:11 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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>Whether or not psilocybin/ psilocin are poisons just depends on your subjective definition of what a poison is
I agree, but as a few people had made the case that psilocybin isn't a poison, I descided to put a contrary view. It's just a question of semantics and context. It is like asking if alcohol is a poison. It is, but you would not normally say that someone who had drunk 12 bottles of beer had been 'poisoned'. Imagine if someone were to collect psilocybe mushrooms mistaking them for an edible species and then they eat them for dinner. They suffer from nausea, anxiety and a disturbing change in perception, they have certainly been 'poisoned'.
>I don't agree with you that "what receptors the psilocin binds to, or why people see geometric patterns under the influence" neccesarily distracts from some sort of path to higher knowledge of conciousness
This isn't what I was saying. Yes, to understand how psychedelic drugs work will help science to understand consciousness, the brain/mind connection.
My point was that even if you fully understand that brain/mind connection and you fully understand the action of this class of drugs on both the brain and mind, that still dosn't tell you what psychedelic drugs are. What they do is to convey an experience of the nature of reality. However well you understand consciousness, this will never tell you whether a religous experience is real or delusion. To ask 'what does psilocybin do?' is really to ask 'what is the nature of reality?' and there is no answer to that question and there never will be... except perhaps to smile!
You were answering the question, I was going off on a tangent...
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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no, shrooms (more specifically psiloc(yb)in) are not a poison.
Webster: poison
a substance that through its chemical action impairs an organism
I would have to say that everyone who is tripping would have to be considered impaired.
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (06/06/02 06:01 AM)
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susej
we like cheese.
Registered: 05/20/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Swami]
#665448 - 06/06/02 05:57 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Have there been any documented cases of someone ingesting mushrooms and suffereing serious, permanent health problems?
My boss was telling me about a friend of his who did 'shrooms in the 60s and is still messed up today and is in a mental hospital. Just wondering if there is any way this could happen? I presume not and he has no idea what he's talking about, but you never know.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#665472 - 06/06/02 06:09 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't have the references handy, but there are apparently two known deaths attributable to psilocybin intoxication. One was a small child and another a young woman. I have not seen anything on permanent psychosis although in the book "True Hallucinations" Dennis McKenna brothers was completed zoned out for 2 weeks when using a small dose of ayahuasca in conjunction with the mushroom.
Bottom line: they are relatively safe, but not completely harmless and certainly not a toy.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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dirk gently
enthusiast
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#665587 - 06/06/02 07:01 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
My boss was telling me about a friend of his who did 'shrooms in the 60s and is still messed up today and is in a mental hospital.
This is a classic urban legend. It appears again and again, often in slightly different forms. Like the guy who did too much acid and thought he was an orange for the rest of his life (or something).
not to say that his friend isn't mentally ill, but it probably wasn't the mushrooms alone that did it.
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too_many_weirdos
it's a jungle inhere
Registered: 12/01/01
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Swami]
#665717 - 06/06/02 08:41 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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excuse me =p. by poison i meant toxin.
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TripySmurf
journeyman
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Loc: Smurf Village - House wit...
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#665734 - 06/06/02 08:53 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you got scizo's in ur family it may be a good idea not to dose... read up on hppd for more info...
I know someone who has hppd although i commonly tell him its like a major freebie he doesn't agree so i suppose its not as pleasent as one would imagine:P
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All the above text is fictional and is meant for roleplaying only!
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Aeolus1369
Dr. Seahorse
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: dirk gently]
#666525 - 06/06/02 06:29 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe thinking you're an orange for the rest of your life is an exaggeration..but there is such a thing as permanent LSD psychosis which fucks you up. Not sure about shroomies though
--Aeolus
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RingmasteR
MiRRoR MirroR
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Aeolus1369]
#666820 - 06/07/02 01:45 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeh it's called HPPD, rare and usually not that bad, more common on cid but *i believe* you can get it from shrooms, and it usually lasts a couple of months but there are people that have had it for years and years
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Xibalba
Stranger
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#669204 - 06/08/02 06:04 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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Everything is a 'poison' if you eat enough of it. What you should look at is the active dose/ fatal dose ratio. This is scary for some common drugs like alcohol and Tylenol. For psilocybin, the amount you need to eat to eat to get the full psychoactive effects is such a tiny fraction of what you would have to eat to die that the "impairment" and the "toxicity" can't be part of the same process.
In alcohol, it is- there's a pretty linear continum from buzzed to drunk to wasted to dead. It's a depressant, and we understand those pretty well. I think the fact that depressants are so easily understood is related to why they're such uninteresting drugs compared to psychadelics.
If someone here knew what they "really do" and posted it I don't think you would understand it. Neither would I. (Are you a neuro-chemist?) And even among the specialists no one really does know better than "something with the serotonin receptors..." It's not something we can do much research on- at least not in this back-asswards excuse for a nation- as long as all hallucinogens are in schedule 1.
Also; I really doubt your boss could name the guy and what institution he is in. It's always a friend-of-a-friend. I'm sure this has actually happened to a few schizos but if you're sane enough now it's really not a concern. HPPD is only a visual condition, it is not a form of psychosis.
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LCid
Close ToInsanity.
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Xibalba]
#681187 - 06/15/02 11:50 PM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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bah fuckin misinformation ...hppd if its real lasts the rest of your natural life ive had it for 5 years and disscussed it with people whove had it for decades without even continueing any drugs its being like 1 hit of lsd visuals but no stimulation no euphoria mostly dp/dr
also multiple drugs can cause it mdma tho i argue it has to be somthing more psychdelic in the pill but most agree anything remotley psychdelic can give it to you except marijuana..
Edited by LCid (06/15/02 11:51 PM)
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stealth
addict
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#681819 - 06/16/02 09:59 AM (21 years, 5 months ago) |
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they make your brain bleed. The blood seaping down the side of your skull then enters the hippocampus (sp?) and thats what gives you visuals. You can read more about it on erowid.org.
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wjames
Phenomenologist
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: why]
#4083796 - 04/22/05 02:04 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
why said:
The real question is why does a lessening of the sense of 'self' sometimes cause a religous or mystical experience? and are such experiences real or delusion?
Good questions! We might begin by trying to clearly describe the subjective experience of what we mean by loss of self associated with mushrooms.
One specific experience may people report is emergence of spontaneous "kundalini experiences," rhythmic breathing, and somewhat seizure-like movements (as if being 'seized'). Usually our cortex inhibits these lower-brain-mediated (medulla?) actions. Might psilocin inhibit this inhibitory activity?
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"We're all in this consciousness-raising business together."
"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
"Everyone should eat hashish, but only once." - S. Dali
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myndreach
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: susej]
#4084302 - 04/22/05 08:56 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
susej said:
So what do mushrooms do to you physically? It's a poison, right? What actually happens? What makes you hallicinate?
You have neurons in your brain. These are the basic conduits for all brian activity; everything from sight, to thought, to emotion, to balance, etc. A chemical signal (neurotransmitter) enters one end of the nueron, is translated into an electrical signal, sent down the nueron, translated back into a chemical signal, and shot out into a "pool" of synaptic fluid known as the "synaptic gap". Millions of neurons draw from this pool, and turn them into messages for other neurons.
The reason you feel anything from drugs of most types is because they interfere with the way signals travel across your synaptic gaps.
"Typically, drugs imitate or alter neurotransmitters, the chemicals that carry messages between brain cells. Some drugs cause more neurotransmitters to be released, increasing the activity of brain cells. Ecstasy, amphetamine, and some antidepressants are examples of drugs that have this effect. Other drugs slow the removal of neurotransmitters after they are released. Thsi prolongs the action of transmitter chemicals and typically has a stimulating effect (cocaine works in this way)." (Coon 10ed. p.268)
Hallucinogens confuse the neurotransmitters paths...causing them to sometimes slow while others are speeding up. Others bond where they shouldn't, and some don't bond where they should. This causes our senses, emotions, and general thought processes to be distorted to varying degrees.
Hope that helps! 
ps:
Quote:
they make your brain bleed. The blood seaping down the side of your skull then enters the hippocampus (sp?) and thats what gives you visuals. You can read more about it on erowid.org.
!!! LOL, good one...
Edited by myndreach (04/22/05 08:57 AM)
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Boom
just a tester
Registered: 06/16/04
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: myndreach]
#4084340 - 04/22/05 09:05 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Back from the dead!
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gdman
badger, badger,badger...
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 16,286
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: myndreach]
#4084341 - 04/22/05 09:05 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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This thread was pre-FAQ, now we have all the info you could possibly need on the subject consolidated at one location: Shroomery FAQ.
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Got a question about a substance? Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the mushroom experience? The Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
- Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess
"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve
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Psiloman
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Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: gdman]
#4084424 - 04/22/05 09:33 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also check out this thread : http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2064691/an/0/page/0
Now on the "Real or Delusions" part of the question.Thats something that whatever i say i cannot put it to bed forever....Talking with friends mentioning this question can ensure HOURS of philosophical pondering and discussion,if your friends are a bit on the "intellectual" side.
I will try to give an answer.Does it matter or not if it is "real"? And what do YOU define as "real"?
Example one : One says he got a revelation from the God,and now he is a different better person.We cannot be sure if he had God's revelation,we cannot be sure on God's existence because both of them is not something you can check scientifically or design an experiment on them.Is he a better person? Here people can say yes or no. This is something one can subjectively evaluate as still there is no "Better person evaluation scale" kind of test. If God exists this person might have had a revelation of God.If God doesnt exist ,this person could be simply delusional,well if even God exists this person can be still delusional! What is the important thing though? If he got a revelation or the change in him?
Example two: One person (a simple person,with nothing to hide,with no critical information he knows,propably even a "nobody") says he is being followed and people,agencies like CIA and others conspire against him.A psychiatrist labels him with "Paranoid ideations".Lets also suppose that its 100% sure that noone is after him. Now,we are sure that this person is paranoid,is delusional.
A week after his evalutation he commits suicide by setting himself on fire. The notion of being followed and pursued was SO REAL to HIM that he took his own life.ALL OTHERS *KNOW* that he wasnt followed (aka he was delusional) but HIS REALITY was that HE WAS BEING FOLLOWED. Whats the difference? If he was hunted down by CIA ,he would set himself on fire to "escape",now that he *THOUGHT* he was hunted down by CIA he did the same.Real or not his beliefs their consequences were very real..Ask his family about if it was real that he set himself on fire 
My take on the subject: What you see and what you hear during a mushroom experience is not to be dogmatized.Its not to be used as PROOF that other dimensions exist,spirits exist etc etc. It is NOT to be taken as literal data that you should try to find sources to crosscheck and validate. The power and the magic of the mushrooms lay in the fact that they can help you if you use them correctly to solve many psychological issues and "reprogram" the way you think.Read on how hallucinogens act: They are not "random image generators" ,they are "downregulators of the brain proccesing filters".
So are those angels you saw while tripping real? Were the voices you heard delusions? Were the meaning you "received" ULTIMATE TRUTHS or MERE HALLUCINATIONS (DELUSIONS, "fucked up" BRAIN CHEMISTRY ETC ETC)?
Truth is that what they were is insignificant although beautiful or scary or lifechanging,and you shouldnt capitalize and dogmatise on them.What you should focus on is "what is the practical implications of the experience for you".
So what is important is what is left after the trip.
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BoneMan
Shrimpin ain't easy
Registered: 02/09/05
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 Re: What do shroom actually *do*? [Re: Psiloman]
#4085107 - 04/22/05 01:31 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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yea he's right, its a poison. but so is water, and oxygen and every other chemical known to man.
it all depends on the dosage.
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