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Offlinethatsoweird
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Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Blue Jay Way
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
An individual in the whole.
    #6588377 - 02/20/07 02:13 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a libertarian, mainly because I believe in our individual knowledge of what is best for ourselves. Being the only one that has any kind of insight on me I should be the best suited to make any kind of decision on that matter. I do believe that the world would be a better place if we would all follow the libertarian principles. By having the freedom to do what we like as long as we don't hurt someone that hasn't agreed to be hurt we have something better than democracy. Instead of the majority having it's way, everyone have their way. But as I said my main interest in it would be my strong belief in individualism.

Since getting into psychedelics I have been seeing from many directions the idea of us all being a part of the whole. That we must release ourselves from our ego and give ourselves up to the whole. That we aren't individuals, we are all one. I'm sure you know what I mean. This message is seen in many religions and philosophies. I am having problems getting my head around it being the individualist that I am.

I can't see a universe without us being individuals, I only perceive what I perceive. Not what anyone else does. I try to imagine what others are perceiving but it is a very crude and highly inaccurate substitute.

I can agree that if we break it all down that opinions are non static and that they therefore are not real. One could argue that it is a type of stubbornness that forces us to think differently from each other. But I still come back to perception. It is to me the hardest part to explain, what is perceiving? Where are those sensory impulses going? I know that wherever they are going is also the closest to finding me. That is where I am wherever that is and whatever I am.

So however you argue for a collective soul and a wholeness that we all are merely a part of. That we have the arrogance to believe that we are special, that we are unique. I can't see it. In this reality at least there appear to be clear borders between you and me. Between what I perceive and what you perceive. I guess that you could argue that it is naive of me to think that reality is as simple as I perceive it. Well, to me there is no other reality, all else is theory and opinion. The only thing I know and can prove to myself is what I perceive.

I guess what I want to know is anyone else struggling with these questions? I would love to get any input on this subject as my thoughts about it are rather complex and confusing.

Btw, feel free to call me an unexperienced kid. That's fine, I'm only 25 and I don't pretend to understand even a fraction of what this world is about. So I could do with a kick in the pants if I'm way down the wrong path here :smirk:

Thanks for reading!
Z


--------------------
"I'm not serious of course,
um, but I am peculiar."
-Terence McKenna

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 24 days
Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: thatsoweird]
    #6588550 - 02/20/07 04:40 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

From what I see your confusion comes from the fact that you feel somehow "constrained" to give up what's defining you as a person into becoming one with all. I think that we can do both. Lol and much much more, but that's somehow out of the context. My idea is that you can still be "who you are" and in the same time be aware and feel that you're part of the entire. One doesn't have to exclude the other.
There are different views on what giving up your ego means. I see it as becoming more aware and more in tune with everybody and everything that surrounds you, listening to your intuition and starting to realize that there are other things then the material and fabricated world. It's more like a transcendental state.
I honestly believe that "we are one", but each of us in different phases and circumstances, with different experiences.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: thatsoweird]
    #6589135 - 02/20/07 11:30 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

How to see it better from the perspective of the other ? To see the whole ?

Just imagine a dice on a table. You sitting on one side, a friend sitting on the other one.
You see the dots on your side of the dice, your friend sees the dots on the other side.
Now, if on does not know how the dots are generally ordered upon the dice, one could argue forever about what the dot [edit:DICE I meant] in generally looks, if one doesn't trust the words of the friend.
One will not have the direct experience of perception of this dice from another perspective, and (bringing this into the extremes), each one could argue, that he sees a different dice. There could rise wars upon this !
What a blame, if these poor fellows simply would know the trick to change the position of the dice, or their own position ! [excluded as pemise ! :grin:]
All wars would have been useless and only fought about something we did not know...from other perspective, which could 'randomly' be also our own perspective !

We all look at the same 'dice' everytime, but only with different 'perspectives'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (02/20/07 12:16 PM)

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OfflineGrok
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Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6589166 - 02/20/07 11:42 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

We Are One.

In my understanding each of us in an infintely unique expression of the whole; and we are all indiviudals of the whole, that is, we cannot be divided from the whole because we are all of it. We are unique, but not 'different'. Difference is ego. "you're mexican and I'm american". Uniqueness is an attribute of all indiviudal things. No two snowflakes are identical. They come from the same source of water, but become unique individuals of that water. Much like us.

While there are apparent borders between you and I, we are all connected through our consciousness. This is the unity and Oneness that exists between us, and between all things. We're all connected, we all influence the entire world around us.

What is good for anyone; what makes us happy, is generally good for everyone else. Think of a relationship...what makes one person happy is best for both partners. It is like this with all of humanity; and as indiviudals we should strive to find what allows us to be happy, because the shits contagious. In this sense I don't see why being 'selfish' is bad in any way, because doing what leads us to happiness tends to bring others there as well. We should all be concerned foremost with our own happiness. In that regard, I agree with your with on libertarianism. We all know what's best for us. Lest authority convince us otherwise.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: thatsoweird]
    #6593010 - 02/21/07 08:18 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Individual wholes, as whole individuals..
Individual duality <-> Individuality..


"The meaning of life, is individual!"
"The individual is key.. ..and the/a world/context, is its keyhole!"
"A individual is never dependent on nothing but the whole of the all!"

"ONLY the INDIVIDUAL may separate from the/a WHOLE ... "

:crazy2::thumbup:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: thatsoweird]
    #6593126 - 02/21/07 09:18 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

"I am seperated for the sake of love. For the chance at union"

IMO we experience life as a part of the whole and come to realize that our differences are only different in degree.

We truly do know what is best for ourselves.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (02/21/07 09:19 AM)

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InvisibleSoY
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Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
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Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: Icelander]
    #6608870 - 02/25/07 02:24 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's fucking amazing how we are literally the same thing as everything else in existance, yet we are conscious.  We are elements and atoms and particles and energy, the very same material that is the universe, but somehow we are aware that we are aware.  The logical conclusion is that we *are* the universe, because what else could we be?  Just as our cells *are* us, we *are* the universe.  Every particle is an individual, yet it is also part of the whole.  :eek:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: An individual in the whole. [Re: SoY]
    #6608882 - 02/25/07 02:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes indeed life is amazing and awesome. And our awareness is most likely just particular to us. Everything else could have each it's own seperate kind of awareness; an awareness that we are not aware of. And it's all part of the whole which makes up unlimited awareness.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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