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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Ergot cultivation
#6607718 - 02/25/07 03:30 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have some info I thought might be of interest for some of the people here.
This is taken from the book Pharmacognosy; Phytochemistry, Medicinal plants
Industrial Fermentation
The different Claviceps can be cultivated at pH's near 5.5, which are best adjusted with ammonia salts of the acids in the Krebs' cycle(succinate, citrate). Frequently the alkaloid production is dependent on the phosphate concentrations of the medium, and for many strains, on the precise concentrations of minerals(iron, zinc, copper, boron) which directly influence the productivity. The oxygenation of the culture medium must be intense. Cell differentiation and alkaloid production are controlled by the addition of nutrients: a rich medium causes the formation of abundant hyphal mycelium and no alkaloid production. The latter is triggered when the medium becomes poor in certain nutrients. For many strains, it is the phosphate concentrations that conditions the passage from mycelium proliferation to the biochemical differentiation phase. Tryptophan, added at the beginning of the fermentation, acts as an enzymatic inducer, and therefore increases the quantity of alkaloids formed.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6607739 - 02/25/07 03:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Alkaloids produced
Two approaches are possible. The first one consists of producing simple ergolenes, namely paspalic acid or the hydroxyethylamide of lysergic acid. These two compounds are biosynthesized by Claviceps paspali Stephens and Hall which yields largely exceeding 2g/L. Other calviceps could potentially produce clavines with much higher yields.
Once isolated from the culture medium, the two ergolene derivatives are transformed-the first by isomerization, the second by hydrolysis-into lysergic acid, the starting material for the synthesis of non-peptidic alkaloids used in therapeutics(ergometrine and others). Some clavines can also be the starting material for the synthesis of more complex products.
The second approach, which is more recent, leads to the direct production of ergopeptines, particularly ergocryptine from strains of C. purpurea and possibly from other species. The fermentation is lengthy, and the ergopeptines are obtained in a yield in the order of g/L. The culture can be directed by adding to the medium the amino acids that are the precursors of the desired tricyclic peptide.
Since the specificity is low it is possible to introduce in the medium abiogenetic amino acids, in order to obtain alkaloidal compounds that do not occur naturally and are novel for pharmacological experimentation. In any event the the products must be extracted, keeping in mind that a fraction remains inside the cells(ion-exchange resins).
If anyone has any links related to the subject of cultivating ergot this is the place to post them. Would be great if anyone has a recipe for the nutrient solution.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
Edited by Nast (02/25/07 04:05 AM)
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SofaKingGood
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6607859 - 02/25/07 06:48 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes please if anyone knows the recipe for the nutrient please share. On Monday I'm going to go talk to an old chemistry teacher and find out if he knows anything about ergot cultivation or how to obtain some of the acids in the first technique.
-------------------- [quote]I8thesh400m said: he-has-as-have-i-chek-My-ratings to-the-post-origionator-5-to-you there-are-nice-people-but-be-smart my-spacebar-is-broke:p [/quote]
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Nalim
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you should be able to prepare the ammonia salt of citrate trough mixing Ammonium hydroxide(most online chem-suppliers) with citric acid(any food store on the spice shelves) if I'm not mistaken... Just make sure you use equimolar amounts.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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shroomsynergy
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6608027 - 02/25/07 08:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Tricarboxilic Acid (i think that is how you spell it...) is an acid in a kelp base that will drastically increase the Krebs cycle given the right dosage at the right times in plant growth. i would think that would cause a hightened alkaloid production. I use it on my buds and they get nice and sticky-icky. i use it during cloning, then just after the transfers from one cycle to the next. You can get it at select garden centers and hydroponic shops.
i know thats not your question, but it may help.
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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I think it's pretty hard to predict how the fungi will react to a given substance unless you actually try it. The reason you use ammonium salts of the Krebs cycle acids is probably because you don't want to add any minerals that might affect the alkaloid production or the growth of the fungi. Nevertheless if one where to cultivate ergot successfully, substituting the succinate or citrate salts with the ammonium salt of tricarboxilic acid might very well prove to beneficial to either growth or(much more likely) alkaloid production.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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Xtals
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6609098 - 02/25/07 03:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are different ways of getting ergot to produce different alkaloids, though of interest to the LSD chemist are ergotamine, ergotaminine and ergometrine.
Try using the European Patent Office's search function on their website. I have plenty of patents and academic journals (some of which you can obtain for free through Pubmed Central) that I would be happy to share, when I get access to my files (they aren't on this computer).
The European Patent Office's search function can be accessed through:
http://www.espacenet.com/
(chose your gateway country and then search)
PubMed Central (which gives full access to free articles) can be found:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/
Just for a start, take a look at US2809920 (that's US Patent #2809920) which you can find by chosing "number search" and typing in "US2809920." The title is: Process for the preparation of ergotamine, ergotaminine and ergometrine by saprophytic culture of ergot (claviceps purpurea [fr] tul.) in vitro and isolation of the alkaloids thus produced
After clicking on the "original document tab" at the top you'll see an option for "save full document" which allows you to download it as a PDF.
The academic journal articles I have on this subject agree with the patent literature (and generally, it would be stupid for someone to try patenting a process that didn't work - what, exactly, would be the point in that? Nobody would use the process so you'd have nothing to gain). For this kind of thing, patents are better at giving actual practical examples, while the academic literature is good for giving and explanation of what the investigators were looking at (and sometimes the "materials and methods" sections aren't too helpful).
On Pubmed Central, just for starters, search for Biosynthesis of ergotamine by Claviceps purpurea and you'll find a 1.3 Mb PDF by Basset, Chain and Corbett from 1973. Also take a look at Ergotamine Production in Submerged Culture and Physiology of Claviceps purpurea. The latter article gives references for some media referred to like media T2, media T25 and media TG.
I find Google Scholar is pretty good but it doesn't necessarily bring up articles that you actually can access.
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Xtals]
#6609285 - 02/25/07 04:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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  Thanks! Will be reading those articles tomorrow.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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Cerius
Space Cowboy


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Re: Ergot cultivation *DELETED* [Re: Nalim]
#6610393 - 02/25/07 08:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by RogerRabbit<p>Reason for deletion: Cleaning up thread so I can re-open it.
Edited by RogerRabbit (02/28/07 05:07 AM)
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Cerius]
#6612101 - 02/26/07 10:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know there are alternatives, they have been(/is) discussed in ODD.. They do not belong in advanced mushroom cultivation though. I know that ergot is toxic and that it might not be the "best" way to do it, but it is a way to do it.
Yoschie99 posted this in the LSD thread, seems Ythan beat me to it.:D
The recipe seems easy enough, and getting claviceps is not that hard, it is a pretty common fungi in most of the world, and who are more well equipped to id and isolate it than the members of this forum?
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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illahee
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6613242 - 02/26/07 04:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know that ergot is very common, however I think that finding a strain that will produce alkaloids in a petri dish is difficult. This is what I've heard on the subject before. Perhaps it isn't a question of the right strain but of the right nutrients.
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fastfred
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6613258 - 02/26/07 04:23 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ergot is the way to go. You're not going to get ergotamine any other way without having the DEA kicking your door in in short order.
Isolating a high yielding strain is going to be the hard part. According to the literature there is over 2000X variability in the alkaloids produced. If you have some connections the best way would be to order one of the high yielding strains from ATCC (American Type Culture Collection).
Otherwise it would be pretty tough to analyze each culture and find a high yielding isolate.
-FF
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fastfred
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: fastfred]
#6613386 - 02/26/07 04:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Perhaps it isn't a question of the right strain but of the right nutrients.
Nope, it's all about the genetics. I'm sure there is some variability based on the nutrients, but it is dwarfed by the genetic aspect.
RE: My last post, I noticed that ATCC doesn't list any Claviceps cultures. Your best bet would be to look up some papers and find where they deposited their voucher specimens.
Here are some references for you...
Interesting Chemical Abstracts References: CA: 71:P69351y : describes mutants of strain NRRL 3027 producing 2270mg/l of ergoline compounds of which 85% were amides of lysergic and isolysergic acids. (Swiss patent application)
CA: 77:P156333n : describes a method used to get 9.75g pure lysergamides from a 10 litre fermentation originally containing an estimated 15g.
A note on the variability of alkaloid content of domestic ergot. Atal, C. K.; Schwarting, A. E. (1957) J Am Pharmaceut Assoc Sci Ed 46:451
Studies on cultural requirements of Claviceps purpurea and inactivation of ergotamine. Michener, H. D.; Snell, N. (1950) Am J Bot 37(Jan):52-59
Physiological diferentiation of alkaloid producing strains of Claviceps purpurea Authors: Matošiæ, Sreæko; Mehak, Milena; Šuškoviæ, Jagoda Journal: Acta Bot. Croat. ISSN: 0365-0588 53, pgs.21-30 (1994) Summary: Four different strains of Claviceps purpurea IC/39/20-B, G, R and W have been selected and isolated using common selection method. The relationship between intensity of pigmentation of the culture and the accumulation of ergot alkaloids have been noticed. Maximal alkaloid yields have been obtained with more pigmented strains R and W in the sucrose-asparagine medium (1.30 and 1.50 g/L respectively) and with less pigmented strains B and G in the sucrose-peptone medium (0.30 and 0.80 g/L).
-FF
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Xtals
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Cerius]
#6613838 - 02/26/07 07:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cerius said: Ergot cultivation is a dangerous and probably a fatal hobby.
Is it really? Can you back this up? Do you have any articles from newspapers, magazines, scientific journals about accidents involving ergot?
Ergot is a fungus, like P. cubensis. Ergot cannot walk. Ergot cannot fly. You handle poisonous substances everyday. As long as you are careful not to eat the ergot, you will not die from it. All one needs to do is be careful and wear gloves and avoid eating the fungus.
Thank you for further contributing to the mythology. There are industrial producers of ergot that grow submerged cultures by the thousands of liter. Other industries intentionally infect fields of rye with it and go out and collect it. Unless you accidentally swallow an ergot or take a bath in the extract you have nothing to worry about.
Why is it that people have to make up this kind of nonsense? Ergot cultivation is not "probably" a fatal hobby. I am so sick of the mythology that is grounded in absolutely nothing.
Quote:
You know it's poisonous, right?
So is Aspririn. Why don't you worry about drying from that? Rubbing alcohol is poisonous too. So is bleach. All you have to do is avoid swallowing these things. Ergot is an immobile fungus. Wear some latex gloves and don't eat it. It can't fly. It can't walk.
Quote:
If you're looking for precursors to LSD-25, there are plenty of chemists who spend there lives doing this for you.
No. Chemists do not sit around making precursors for illicit LSD manufacture.
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There's are "other" alkaloids besides ergotamine that are easily and readily available;
Name them and their sources.
I'd like to hear this.
Quote:
A grignard reagent and you're pretty damn close to the wet dream, baby.
At what step in an LSD synthesis would you use a grignard? If you answer this, please answer it in the ODD forum in the "why is acid so hard to make" part. This thread isn't about LSD synthesis, really, as we have a huge thread going about this. Even if we don't have intent on or even interest in manufacturing LSD (as I don't particularly), the question of why ergot is, how it grows, how it synthesizes alkaloids is still interesting.
Edited by Xtals (02/26/07 08:11 PM)
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Cerius
Space Cowboy


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Re: Ergot cultivation *DELETED* [Re: Xtals]
#6614224 - 02/26/07 08:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by RogerRabbitReason for deletion: Cleaning up thread so I can re-open it.
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jccc
just aotherhuman


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Xtals]
#6614252 - 02/26/07 08:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot Read the article on affects on humans...now from what ive heard inhaleing anything related to ergot doesnt matter its when you ingest the wrong stuff that your life goes to hell. http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/ergot_cultivation1.shtml Sorry if this was posted before ddnt have timeto read the articles but his is very simple and easily obtainable materials!!
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Xtals
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Re: Ergot cultivation *DELETED* [Re: Cerius]
#6614457 - 02/26/07 09:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by RogerRabbitReason for deletion: Cleaning up thread so I can re-open it.
Edited by Xtals (02/26/07 09:35 PM)
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Xtals
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Xtals]
#6614664 - 02/26/07 09:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Sorry about that everyone, but I guess I just had to deal with that.
Again, ergot cultivation CAN be dangerous but it doesn't have to be. One needs to be aware that ergot alkaloids are very poisonous and accidentally swallowing an ergot could be a death sentence. However, people are generally pretty good at avoiding swallowing things that they don't intend to, so if you do find ergot in the field and intend to look at in under a microscope or something, it would be best to wear latex gloves when handling it, or use a pair of tweezers. If ergot did have special properties, like its spores were also poisonous and could be inhaled and might kill you, then you'd probably be able to find that information very easily. That's the kind of thing that gets reported and I've never run across anything like that.
Also, if you have other suggestions for handling it safely, please make those suggestions here.
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing so microscopic pictures of it from recent field samples.
I'm a sucker for Stoll and Hoffman's work, so here's a patent by them, about preparing ergotamine, etc. from C. purpurea.
I think biosynthetic investigations are also neat and would like to discuss those.
Edited by Xtals (02/26/07 09:59 PM)
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Tamadragon
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Xtals]
#6615982 - 02/27/07 08:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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....
-------------------- ~Tama Peace I get real lonely
Edited by Tamadragon (02/28/07 02:25 PM)
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illahee
Content Observer

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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Tamadragon]
#6616100 - 02/27/07 09:56 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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More props to Xtals! thank you for your very well voiced opinion in this matter, it's nice to see a smackdown here and there.
Tamadragon, you have no idea of what some people are capable of that surf this forum. Literally, you honestly have no fucking idea at all....and I really mean, AT ALL!
Personally, if I found out that a member had a strain of ergot that could produce alkaloids in a dish i'd hunt them down and beg for a sample.
Xtals, have you read up on the L-PAC biosynth of ephedrine alkaloids? Feed yeast some benzaldehyde and they spit out alkaloids.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6616125 - 02/27/07 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm going to re-open the thread. There's some good information here, and I'm sure more to come. Folks, please take a look at the forum guidelines before getting riled up in here. Read #1 in particular. It's easy to disagree without going postal. Thanks. RR
Edited by RogerRabbit (02/28/07 05:18 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Xtals]
#6619535 - 02/28/07 05:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Xtals said:
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing so microscopic pictures of it from recent field samples.
I'll try to take some next time I find one in some rye. I'm assuming that's what you meant? RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Would taking a sample from a field and cleaning it up on agar be possible? If one where to do this with several strains and then doing a GC/MS on all the samples one could probably find a strain with decent yields.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6622476 - 02/28/07 10:29 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I suspect these three are ergot sclerotia, however the pictures I've found seem to show it elongated more than these. Other than length, they seem to match. The grain of rye they came with and the penny are included for size reference. Anybody know if this is the real thing? These are at minimum magnification. I can get much closer if needed. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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fastfred
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The pictures I've seen show much more elongated sclerotia. They look kind of like wild rice in the pics I've seen.
As for it being dangerous to cultivate ergot... I think that's a pretty foolish idea. Unless you plan to make bread out of it or something I think you have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't even be very concerned about handling it without gloves. Only after the alkaloids had been extracted would you really need to start worrying.
I saw a paper awhile back on claviceps where they knocked a gene out of it and came up with higher concentrations of D-Lysergic acid.
-FF
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Could be an early stage, but those I've seen are more elongated.. I gathered some last summer but those are unavailable to me now..
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6623671 - 03/01/07 08:48 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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They're from Canadian rye. Perhaps the short growing season didn't give them enough time to grow? They do look like sclerotia. You can see the attach point(germ pore?) at one end on all three.
Next time I do some agar work, I'll slap them into petri dish. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6623675 - 03/01/07 08:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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A reasonable way to get some cultures going should probably be take a clone from the core of a stroma.. They are produced after over wintering so they should be possible to get just trough keeping some sclerotia in a protected spot outside during the winter and then when the fruits are produced one could biopsy them..
Any thoghts? Would this work? Anyone know the best way to force them to fruit?
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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The sclerotia I've gathered was in northern Sweden, so the season should be as short or maybe even shorter. When in the season did you gather them?
They could possibly be a substrain that has some different characteristics or one of the other claviceps. Either that or they are just not all grown..
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6623720 - 03/01/07 09:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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They were in a bag of organic rye I purchased, so I don't know the history. I just scooped out a cup and those three were in it. I'm sure there's plenty more. I've been getting rye from the same source for years, and there's usually some of these every time.
I could send you some if you want to study them more. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Nalim
OTD Kelly Girl


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I unfortunately no longer have my microscope:( so the things I'll be able to make up is probably nothing I can't make out in the pic.. But thanks for the offer.
I have seen some sites that carry ergot(unfortunately only as harvested sclerotia) but it might be possible to find one or two that still are alive amongst the rest.
I saw a thread by someone a while ago, might have been yours, where you discussed reviving and making a clean culture from dry fungal material, this could possibly be applied to ergot to..
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6625247 - 03/01/07 05:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have no experience with ergot, but if it's sclerotia, it should revive and grow under the right conditions. Yea, I've revived dry tissue several times. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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africanjuju
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Check out this article...[url][http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v209/n5028/abs/2091134b0.html][/url]
it says that if you could get growth on agar, a LC could be made with 3% peptone to 20% Mannitol (possibly just to decrease pH to 6.2) in tap water that would increase Ergotamine alkaloid production.
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asci
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have you dissected the specimens, and viewed the half's through a microscope? many of the sclerotia i have seen are far larger then whats pictured, but it could be a different species of parasitic plant pathogen? maybe related to ergot or even a geographical subspecies? i say, rehydrate and slap it on some medium and see what happens.
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jccc
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The ergot(if you go looking in a field) that you waNT would have the highest yeilding, fastest growing genes....so it is very difficult to do that with out a prolonged experement of many types of ergot from the field so what is best is to choose a grain that has very long growth or wide spread growth, signalling fast spreading ergot...anyway the samples RR gathered were ergot though when those were harvested they werent mature and where dried and 9 times out of ten are now inactive because if they were active ,unless kept in very dry enviroment the ergot would spread to surronding grains...(that is what ive learened when most bags i get are like RR's were they have no growth but those that already were present...then i got a bag and got it kinda moist and let it sit a few weeks and of course lots of molds appeared do to unsterile conditions but the fungus managed to spread a bit) http://webs.wichita.edu/mschneegurt/biol103/lecture21/ergot.gif never seen ergot in this form in the field but maybe it happens...
http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/images/ergot_summary1.jpg Great ergot specimens this is what you want
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/diseases/images/fac11s03.jpg Another good one
http://homepage.eircom.net/~hedgerow10/ergot.JPG monster ergot
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falcon


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6625589 - 03/01/07 06:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ergot is pretty common on rye, more so on animal feed. The ones I see on horse feed are longer than the rye grains.
Might be easy to get them to fruit. The first thing I would try is putting them in a loosely closed plastic bag on a wet paper towel at room tempature.
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: falcon]
#6628481 - 03/02/07 03:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Check out this article...[url][http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v209/n5028/abs/2091134b0.html][/url]
it says that if you could get growth on agar, a LC could be made with 3% peptone to 20% Mannitol (possibly just to decrease pH to 6.2) in tap water that would increase Ergotamine alkaloid production.
Seems really fucking sweet, unfortunately the alkaloid production in that medium seem to be an unique characteristic for that specific strain(other strains become mitospores).. If one could get the hands on that strain the project would be piece of cake. Seemed to be pretty good yields too
Quote:
never seen ergot in this form in the field but maybe it happens...
The reason you haven't seen it in the fields is that it is the second stage of development that is triggered by over-wintering. The growth will come from ergot infested rye that has fallen on the ground and avoided to become harvested.
Quote:
Might be easy to get them to fruit. The first thing I would try is putting them in a loosely closed plastic bag on a wet paper towel at room tempature.
I'm pretty sure you need to cold-shock them first though..
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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falcon


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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6628582 - 03/02/07 04:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure you need to cold-shock them first though..
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inski
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Some Claviceps purpurea
Claviceps paspali
 inski
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6657697 - 03/11/07 07:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice pictures. What kind of grain is it in the second picture? It doesn't seem to be rye..
Is this your own pictures?
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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cheesie
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6658204 - 03/11/07 12:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
inski said: Some Claviceps purpurea
these are about in summer all the time in the UK if you look.
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: cheesie]
#6658705 - 03/11/07 03:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, Claviceps purpuea is pretty common all over the globe.. Strikes me as odd that no one on the boards have tried cultivating them...
Hopefully this thread will change that.. I know I will try my hand at it this summer..
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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em_bre_O
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6660004 - 03/11/07 10:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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it's not that no one is or has tried..................................not to mention the mention of u tryin' to do this would open u to terrorist listings Here in the states)that lead to other things. WHICH is why no one here is doing any of this.
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: em_bre_O]
#6660632 - 03/12/07 05:12 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why would cultivating a mushroom that is not controlled as other than precursor be worse than cultivating a class one narcotic? We are not discussing the synthesis of LSD here but the cultivation technique used to grow an organism used in migraine medication.
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em_bre_O
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6660702 - 03/12/07 06:55 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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think about it
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: em_bre_O]
#6661066 - 03/12/07 11:04 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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???
This is a forum that handles the manufacturing of psilocybin, which is a scheduled drug.
Ergotamine is not scheduled as anything but a prescription medicine and a precursor. -----> The trouble you can get into from growing psilocybes are graver than the trouble you can get into from growing ergot.
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6661444 - 03/12/07 01:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nast said: ??? This is a forum that handles the manufacturing of psilocybin, which is a scheduled drug.
Actually, it isn't. It's advanced mycology. The subject of this forum is 'advanced mycological techniques'. It's not about drugs or psilocybin, and especially not about manufacturing anything, or terrorism. We need to keep that part clear.
Also, keep it nice everybody. Please contribute if you have something to add regarding the topic, which is based on a type of fungi, but no preaching. Thanks. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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jccc
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I think he means terroist can cultivate this and poision american.....i know we disscused st.augustings fire which is caused by ergot it can kill so it could be classified as manufacturing a posion...maybe...
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Cerius
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: jccc]
#6662810 - 03/12/07 08:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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hijacked, anyone? speaking of terrorists...
there is no online documentation to ergot cultivation from an "average" websurfer? hrmph. i'm digging.
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inski
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6662860 - 03/12/07 08:39 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks! I think that second one is a Phalaris sp!! The images are my own, the ergot came from my back garden. I plan to add some photomicrograph's of conidia,stroma,ascospores and hopefully some other interesting microscopic features to this thread soon. inski
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6663824 - 03/13/07 05:29 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Fab man!
You have found stroma? Or did you induce that yourself? Was the stroma on fallen seeds or on still standing?
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    Rodney Brooks on Robots Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."
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inski
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6667677 - 03/14/07 04:46 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes I have viewed stroma on the sclerotia and conidia or asexual spores in the honeydew. I didn't induce it myself but have seen them on sclerotia that had been stored for over a year! I really want to get some good photomicrograph's showing perithecia and hopefully asci, although I may need to upgrade my scope! inski
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asci
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6678600 - 03/16/07 10:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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inski, great photos!
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inski
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: asci]
#6681503 - 03/17/07 08:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks This Claviceps purpurea sclerotia is the biggest I've seen measuring 24mm!
 I'm not sure what variety of grass this is but it has quite large seeds which I think has an influence on the size of the sclerotia. inski...
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aryah
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6682630 - 03/18/07 05:04 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
inski said: Thanks! I think that second one is a Phalaris sp!!
I thought C paspali grew only on Paspalum sp. grass?
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inski
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: aryah]
#6686011 - 03/19/07 01:48 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's right, my first post in this thread has four images, the last two show Claviceps paspali on a Paspalum sp. I assume Nast was asking about the second image of C.purpurea which I'm pretty sure is on a Phalaris sp! inski...
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aryah
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6686316 - 03/19/07 06:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
inski said: That's right, my first post in this thread has four images, the last two show Claviceps paspali on a Paspalum sp. I assume Nast was asking about the second image of C.purpurea which I'm pretty sure is on a Phalaris sp! inski...
ah, I c! great work! did you find the ergots in the wild?
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inski
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: aryah]
#6690152 - 03/20/07 12:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I find them just outside my house in the garden every year! I have no interest in cultivating Claviceps sp, I prefer to study their life cycle and microscopic features! inski
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aryah
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
#6694303 - 03/21/07 04:12 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
inski said: I find them just outside my house in the garden every year! I have no interest in cultivating Claviceps sp, I prefer to study their life cycle and microscopic features! inski
I gather, besides the tremor-inducing things in them, likely water insoluble, unlike the purpura strains, they shouldnt be toxic, and supposedly contain LSA in Morning Glory like ratios and quantities? Wasson at least claimed so in Road to Eleusis, and Im just exploring info on this thats available, in a thread on lycaeum..
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VampireSlayer
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: aryah]
#6707675 - 03/24/07 09:33 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The internet needs a detailed pictorial tek on the cultivation of ergot and a detailed pictorial tek on the synthesis. So basicly if you have all of the stuff to make a substrate and a ergot culture strain that has the right alkaloids you are on the right track to making lysergic acid? It seems to me that the internet isn't a very good place to learn about the cultivation of ergot or the synthesis of lysergic acid from the ergot alkoloids.
-------------------- I Don't come to fight flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high and low places
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RogerRabbit
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Please keep this thread about mycology, not making acid, or I'll have to lock it. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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jccc
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BAck to this thread...
Well I came up with some questions...if ergot is a fungus than where is the mycellium growth?
Also if one were to transfer this to a agar plate what part of the ergot would you sample? (just like if i were to put spores on a plate form the mushrooms gills what do you do for ergot?)
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: jccc]
#6813709 - 04/20/07 06:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The mycelium is in and on the seed.. The entire first year is actually just mycelial growth, so most of the pics you've seen of ergot is mycelium.. The fruiting stage occurs the second year from spore..
It's both a parasitic fungi and a saprophytic. The first stage is parasitic and then after the grass is dead it continues feeding from it and sets fruit.
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jccc
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6817016 - 04/21/07 08:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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are the fruits little mushroom bodies??
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: jccc]
#6844765 - 04/28/07 10:23 AM (17 years, 25 days ago) |
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fruit=fruitbody=mushroom
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HillbillyThoth
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6851232 - 04/29/07 09:47 PM (17 years, 24 days ago) |
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This has been discussed so many times all over the internet; the DEA's own reports suggest that most or all of the LSD in the U.S. is made from Ergotamine Tartrate, bought in Russia (though one businessman was arrested buying it in Vietnam, and I bet you can get it from Mexico too).
I'm tired of reading about this; there are pretty good arguments on both sides (whether ergot can be practical for LSD production), so how come one of you doesn't go out to your local Rye Field (tm), pick some sclerotia, culture it, and post back here with your results? If you have some experience growings LCs of Psilocybe spp. this can't be all that more difficult. It's the same basic procedure, just a more specific culture formula.
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RogerRabbit
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Quote:
I'm tired of reading about this;
And I'm tired of people like you hijacking the thread to talk about lsd when it's a mycology thread, not a drug manufacturing thread. Don't do it again. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Nalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: jccc]
#6857936 - 05/01/07 11:38 AM (17 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
jccc said: Also if one were to transfer this to a agar plate what part of the ergot would you sample? (just like if i were to put spores on a plate form the mushrooms gills what do you do for ergot?)
I think I missed this part before(although I think I have stated my opinion on it earlier). The best way to get a culture going, in my mind, would be to wait until the second stage of growth when one gets fruitbodies and clone that material in the same fashion one would with Psilocybe sp.
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crystalsparkles
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6930181 - 05/17/07 12:53 PM (17 years, 6 days ago) |
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It'll be cereal harvest time within the next 3 - 6 weeks, when Ergot will be most visible on stuff like rye, wheat, barley... how about those that are interested in a cultivation attempt spend a few hours in local fields looking for some samples. That we could then post out to any of the willing resident masters to see what they can work out.
If you're interested in having a wander, I strongly recommend reading the wiki article on Ergot and then have a quick read through the cereals and grasses it grows on so you know roughly what you're looking for and at. I've actually found it really enjoyable learning about cereals and being able to pick some apart in front of me while I read the Wiki articles.
There's quite a lot of good information around about Ergot since it's been involved in quite a lot of history; e.g. crop farming, LSD, civil wars in France (apparently ), old and newer medicinal uses, Greek mystic stuff...
The Wiki on Ergot's life cycle is particularly worthwhile.
Edited by crystalsparkles (05/17/07 01:56 PM)
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crystalsparkles
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http://www.psychedelic-library.org/paspali.htm
A link to an interesting idea that Ergot was farmed by priests by inoculation of crops with the Ergots honeydue.
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crystalsparkles
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I have also since discovered two recipies for growth nutrient and that there are quite a few patents around about cultivation.
A growth cycle is approximately 14 days. I have more details on what affects the output of the growth cycle, how to enhance it and what levels of output can be obtained but I'm not sure if that's really shroomery information.
PM me if you want some more specifics I guess.
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RasHelio1
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bobs red mill og rye has alot of ergot sclerotia in it.oh and by the way i was being lazy when replying. this isnt a reply to the last post but rather a general post on the subject concerning the original q's from the top.there is indeed claviceps culture techs online.the same one on every sites page word for word where it can be found.you gotta dig deep though.something like page 200 deep in the search results.if i get bored i'll look for it and post links.
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RasHelio1
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RasHelio1]
#6942527 - 05/20/07 11:29 AM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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B) Make a culture medium
Combine the following ingredients in about 500 ml distilled water in a 2 L small-neck flask:
Sucrose 100 g
Chick pea meal 50 g Calcium nitrate 1 g Ca(NO3)2 Monopotassium phosphate 0.25 g KH2PO4 Magnesium sulphate 0.25 g MgSO4 Potassium chloride 0.125 g KCl Ferrous sulphate heptahydrate 8.34 mg FeSO47H20 Zinc sulphate heptahydrate 3.44 mg ZnSO47H20
Add water to make up one liter
Adjust to pH 4 with ammonia solution and citric acid
Sterilize by autoclaving
C) Make a culture
Inoculate the sterilized medium with Claviceps Purpurea under sterile conditions, stopper with sterilized cotton and incubate for two weeks, periodically testing and maintaining pH 4. After two weeks a surface culture can be seen on the medium. Large-scale production of the fungus can now begin.
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RasHelio1
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RasHelio1]
#6942537 - 05/20/07 11:34 AM (17 years, 3 days ago) |
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D) Large-scale production
Obtain several ordinary 1 gallon jugs.
Place a two-hole stopper in the necks of the jugs.
Fit a short (6 inch) tube in one hole, leaving two inches above the stopper. Fit a short rubber tube to this. Fill a small (500 ml) Erlenmeyer flask with a dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite (NaClO). Extend a glass tube from the rubber so the end is immersed in the hypochlorite.
Fit a long glass tube in the other stopper hole. It must reach near the bottom of the jug and have about two inches showing above the stopper. Attach a rubber tube to the glass tube and fit a short glass tube to the end of the rubber tube.
Fill a large glass tube (1" x 6") with sterile cotton and fit one-hole stoppers in the ends. Fit the small glass tube in the end of the rubber tube into one stopper of the large tube. Fit another small glass tube into the other stopper. A rubber tube is connected to this and attached to small air pump (obtained from a tropical fish store).
With this aeration equipment you can assure a supply of clean air to the Claviceps Purpurea fungus while maintaining a sterile environment inside the solution.
Dismantle the aerators. Place all the glass tubes, rubber tubes, stoppers and cotton in a paper bag, seal tightly with wire staples and sterilize in an autoclave.
Fill the 1-gallon jugs 2/3 to 3/4 full with the culture medium and autoclave.
While these things are being sterilized, homogenize in a blender the culture already obtained and use it to inoculate the material in the gallon jugs. The blender must be sterile.
EVERYTHING must be sterile.
Assemble the aerators. Start the pumps. A slow bubbling in each jug will provide enough oxygen to the cultures. A single pump may be connected to several filters.
Let everything sit at room temperature (25 C) in a dark place (never expose ergot alkaloids to bright light - they will decompose) for a period of ten days.
After ten days, adjust the culture to 1% ethanol using 95% ethanol under sterile conditions. Maintain growth for another two weeks.
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merovinge
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RasHelio1]
#6984780 - 05/29/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you're looking for a source of ergot, JLF Non-Consumables has dried honeydew stage ergot for not terribly much. It shouldn't take much more than some water and a blender to make a solution for inoculating a little section of rye or some other appropriate host. My personal guess is that this is the easier way of cultivating ergot... just let nature do the work. I'm fairly certain from my reading that almost all ergot produces alkaloids in reasonable amounts, the problem arises in getting them to produce in submerged culture, which would mean that you probably wouldn't even have the luxury of assaying the alkaloid content of the different strains you find in the field or purchase without growing each individually in submerged culture and then extracting, chromatographing, etc.
I also read (though I think it was Uncle Fester, whom I really don't trust...) that ergot hasn't been eliminated in grain production, it's just picked out at the elevators. So maybe if anyone's ballsack is big enough to go running around asking potentially closed-minded grain elevator workers/owners/managers for well-known precursors to LSD, perhaps they wouldn't mind just giving it to such a diligent amateur (or perhaps professional ) mycologist. If you're interested in finding the nitty-gritty scientific procedure, the best consolidated source I've found is Otto Snow's book "LSD". Not as much of a book as much as a solid collection of journal articles, patents, and other scholarly sources, but nice to have nevertheless. If someone's really interested in anything contained in it, I suppose I could type some of it out... I think the amazon page for it has a table of contents in the "Look Inside" sample... tell me what you'd like to see. Also, the previous little tek in this thread looked at a quick glance like the one in "Psychedelic Chemistry," though, frankly, I didn't bother to read much of that particular post. There's a much greater variety of procedures which are likely more tried and true in "LSD".
Hope it's useful information for someone... maybe after SWIM gets things ironed out on his own, there'll be a photo tek in the future... sounds like a good use of time. SWIM tells me it makes him sad to not find good L around... Like I said, though, don't be afraid to ask for a snippet or two of the book that interests you.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
#6985450 - 05/30/07 01:18 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: I requested several times to keep this on topic as a mycology thread. This is advanced mycology. It is not an LSD making forum.
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