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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6616125 - 02/27/07 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm going to re-open the thread. There's some good information here, and I'm sure more to come. Folks, please take a look at the forum guidelines before getting riled up in here.  Read #1 in particular. It's easy to disagree without going postal. Thanks.:thumbup:
RR

Edited by RogerRabbit (02/28/07 05:18 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Xtals]
    #6619535 - 02/28/07 05:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Xtals said:

Personally, I'd be interested in seeing so microscopic pictures of it from recent field samples.





I'll try to take some next time I find one in some rye. I'm assuming that's what you meant?
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6619713 - 02/28/07 08:32 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Would taking a sample from a field and cleaning it up on agar be possible?
If one where to do this with several strains and then doing a GC/MS on all the samples one could probably find a strain with decent yields.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6622476 - 02/28/07 10:29 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I suspect these three are ergot sclerotia, however the pictures I've found seem to show it elongated more than these. Other than length, they seem to match. The grain of rye they came with and the penny are included for size reference. Anybody know if this is the real thing? These are at minimum magnification. I can get much closer if needed.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6622983 - 03/01/07 01:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The pictures I've seen show much more elongated sclerotia. They look kind of like wild rice in the pics I've seen.

As for it being dangerous to cultivate ergot... I think that's a pretty foolish idea. Unless you plan to make bread out of it or something I think you have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't even be very concerned about handling it without gloves. Only after the alkaloids had been extracted would you really need to start worrying.

I saw a paper awhile back on claviceps where they knocked a gene out of it and came up with higher concentrations of D-Lysergic acid.


-FF

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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6623653 - 03/01/07 08:44 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Could be an early stage, but those I've seen are more elongated.. I gathered some last summer but those are unavailable to me now..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6623671 - 03/01/07 08:48 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

They're from Canadian rye. Perhaps the short growing season didn't give them enough time to grow? They do look like sclerotia. You can see the attach point(germ pore?) at one end on all three.

Next time I do some agar work, I'll slap them into petri dish.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6623675 - 03/01/07 08:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

A reasonable way to get some cultures going should probably be take a clone from the core of a stroma.. They are produced after over wintering so they should be possible to get just trough keeping some sclerotia in a protected spot outside during the winter and then when the fruits are produced one could biopsy them..

Any thoghts? Would this work? Anyone know the best way to force them to fruit?


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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6623691 - 03/01/07 08:54 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The sclerotia I've gathered was in northern Sweden, so the season should be as short or maybe even shorter.
When in the season did you gather them?

They could possibly be a substrain that has some different characteristics or one of the other claviceps. Either that or they are just not all grown..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6623720 - 03/01/07 09:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

They were in a bag of organic rye I purchased, so I don't know the history. I just scooped out a cup and those three were in it. I'm sure there's plenty more. I've been getting rye from the same source for years, and there's usually some of these every time.

I could send you some if you want to study them more.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6624517 - 03/01/07 01:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I unfortunately no longer have my microscope:( so the things I'll be able to make up is probably nothing I can't make out in the pic.. But thanks for the offer.

I have seen some sites that carry ergot(unfortunately only as harvested sclerotia) but it might be possible to find one or two that still are alive amongst the rest.

I saw a thread by someone a while ago, might have been yours, where you discussed reviving and making a clean culture from dry fungal material, this could possibly be applied to ergot to..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6625247 - 03/01/07 05:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I have no experience with ergot, but if it's sclerotia, it should revive and grow under the right conditions. Yea, I've revived dry tissue several times.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlineafricanjuju
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6625484 - 03/01/07 06:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Check out this article...[url][http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v209/n5028/abs/2091134b0.html][/url]

it says that if you could get growth on agar, a LC could be made with 3% peptone to 20% Mannitol (possibly just to decrease pH to 6.2) in tap water that would increase Ergotamine alkaloid production.

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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6625540 - 03/01/07 06:37 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

have you dissected the specimens, and viewed the half's through a microscope? many of the sclerotia i have seen are far larger then whats pictured, but it could be a different species of parasitic plant pathogen? maybe related to ergot or even a geographical subspecies? i say, rehydrate and slap it on some medium and see what happens.

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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6625575 - 03/01/07 06:42 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The ergot(if you go looking in a field) that you waNT would have the highest yeilding, fastest growing genes....so it is very difficult to do that with out a prolonged experement of many types of ergot from the field so what is best is to choose a grain that has very long growth or wide spread growth, signalling fast spreading ergot...anyway the samples RR gathered were ergot though when those were harvested they werent mature and where dried and 9 times out of ten are now inactive because if they were active ,unless kept in very dry enviroment the ergot would spread to surronding grains...(that is what ive learened when most bags i get are like RR's were they have no growth but those that already were present...then i got a bag and got it kinda moist and let it sit a few weeks and of course lots of molds appeared do to unsterile conditions but the fungus managed to spread a bit)
http://webs.wichita.edu/mschneegurt/biol103/lecture21/ergot.gif
never seen ergot in this form in the field but maybe it happens...

http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/images/ergot_summary1.jpg
Great ergot specimens this is what you want

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/diseases/images/fac11s03.jpg
Another good one

http://homepage.eircom.net/~hedgerow10/ergot.JPG
monster ergot

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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6625589 - 03/01/07 06:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ergot is pretty common on rye, more so on animal feed. The ones I see on horse feed are longer than the rye grains.

Might be easy to get them to fruit. The first thing I would try is putting them in a loosely closed plastic bag on a wet paper towel at room tempature.

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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: falcon]
    #6628481 - 03/02/07 03:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Check out this article...[url][http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v209/n5028/abs/2091134b0.html][/url]

it says that if you could get growth on agar, a LC could be made with 3% peptone to 20% Mannitol (possibly just to decrease pH to 6.2) in tap water that would increase Ergotamine alkaloid production.



Seems really fucking sweet, unfortunately the alkaloid production in that medium seem to be an unique characteristic for that specific strain(other strains become mitospores).. If one could get the hands on that strain the project would be piece of cake. Seemed to be pretty good yields too:grin:

Quote:

never seen ergot in this form in the field but maybe it happens...



The reason you haven't seen it in the fields is that it is the second stage of development that is triggered by over-wintering. The growth will come from ergot infested rye that has fallen on the ground and avoided to become harvested.

Quote:

Might be easy to get them to fruit. The first thing I would try is putting them in a loosely closed plastic bag on a wet paper towel at room tempature.



I'm pretty sure you need to cold-shock them first though..


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Nalim said: "Quoting yourself is retarded."

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: Nalim]
    #6628582 - 03/02/07 04:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm pretty sure you need to cold-shock them first though..




:thumbup:

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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6657042 - 03/10/07 09:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Some Claviceps purpurea


Claviceps paspali

inski:cool:


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OfflineNalim
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Re: Ergot cultivation [Re: inski]
    #6657697 - 03/11/07 07:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Nice pictures.
What kind of grain is it in the second picture? It doesn't seem to be rye..

Is this your own pictures?
:hippie:


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