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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
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a buddhist paradox
    #6600261 - 02/23/07 01:54 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think i have a pretty good understanding of the basics of buddhism and the other day i was wondering about how a person who has reached Nirvana (the state of windless sails or liberation from all desire) might live their lives, now i have heard the aphorism, "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water" but something doesnt seem right about that. My question is, how would someone make any decisions or goals if they have no desires, it seems to me every action even breathing is based from a desire. In the case of breathing it is to stay alive. Now i suppose maybe liberation from desire may mean just worldly things and i guess maybe just living in a monastary type setting eating plain food and having no possesions. But do not the monks and buddha himself desire good for the world? Or to teach others, buddha must of desired to teach others or he wouldnt of done so. Thats what the bodishatva vow is all about. If desiring to help others isnt included in nirvana then how could one be blissful when you consider the pain of the world? Now an enlightened person wouldnt desire enlightenment (i realize enlightment is to be realized not attained) why meditate, why do anything but sit there and stare, why eat or breath does a person with no desire desire to live or blink their eyelids? Even if they dont desire to die, some kind of action must happen. Even if through enlightenment we gained all magical powers or siddhis, why use them if you have no desire. It could be said that a desireless state is the realization that everything is perfect the way it is, but as the buddhists know things are impermanent and so future action of some kind must be taken and again you wouldnt bother teaching anyone about enlightenment. This is a troubling paradox to me how does one create a value system or means of determining proper action in such a state of mind. (kinda reminds me of mushroom trips where nobody is sure what to do cuz everything seems as good as everything else) As an aside buddha must of really desired food or else he wouldnt of been so fat. (though of course those statues were not neccesarily how he looked especially since buddha was indian).. any thoughts anyone?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6600271 - 02/23/07 01:59 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Even Buddhists desire paragraphs. :tongue:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6600331 - 02/23/07 02:16 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

interesting. This may be a mindless contribution but yeah Buddha was skinny. Fat is a desirable or highly looked upon feature in China.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineFloop
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Cracka_X]
    #6601004 - 02/23/07 07:53 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

One does not have to create a value system. Transformation towards the 'good' is just something that happens in that state of mind. Why? Because people are good, if detached from their ego games. You know, acting from your heart.

And that's what buddhists try to accomplish, detachment from desires.
Then they just watch the desires floating by, just being.
It doesn't mean there are no desires, just that you don't desire anything. You just let everything take it's natural course.

I've got to go now unfortunately, might come back later to explane my views a bit better.


--------------------
"The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sent iment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men."
-Albert Einstein


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Floop]
    #6601023 - 02/23/07 08:09 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

chop wood and carry water.
the actions are the same and what preceeds and what follows are the same.
before realization and after realization.
the difference is in the attitude that witnesses what arises and what passes.

in buddhist meditation and other shamanic practice, the student must learn to dissassemble what he was certain of and gets to work on very basic attitude, some call them seeds, or kernels, or roots.

the paradox is not about desire or its absence, but about not needing to reassemble or to create any artificial value system at all, realization is the ability to find an inherent nature, and to do it in a sustainable way.

Nirvana is peculiar in buddhism, bodhisatvas see it as a cop out, but it is a valuable carrot for those that really need heaven and hell to be motivated.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6601268 - 02/23/07 10:57 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

As always I sez, it's not the desires dats bad it's da attachment to da fulfillment of dem desires that causes da sufferin.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6601489 - 02/23/07 12:26 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I am attached to the desire to leave suffering, so I suffer because of my attachment to my desire of leaving it ?
Damned paradox, either staying in suffering or bring me more suffering ?
No, I am happy with this desire and my attachment to it, as long as I see the suffering mainly influenced from external factors. At least, I experience suffering this way :wink: [It is quite hard for me to keep sitting on glowing coals and make a happy smile. And really healthy this doesn't seem either]
And I don't wonder, that I still find places and times, where this desire is fulfilled and I am happy. Then I wonder why I see suffering mainly brought to my existence by other humans.
Maybe I am no good buddhist ?
:grin: :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineFloop
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Registered: 11/28/06
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Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6601616 - 02/23/07 01:06 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I am attached to the desire to leave suffering, so I suffer because of my attachment to my desire of leaving it ?




I think that desire will help you to motivate you to find ways to alleviate your suffering.
However, you seem to implicate that you need to give up the thing you're attached to in order to give up attachment. What makes you think that?

There's nothing wrong with that desire, and you don't need to be attached to it in order for that desire to exist.


--------------------
"The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sent iment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men."
-Albert Einstein


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6602179 - 02/23/07 03:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Breathing, eating, blinking...these are all perfectly natural functions of the human organism. It is simply the way it is. NOT breathing or NOT eating or NOT blinking would all have to be based on a desire, because these acts are contrary to the natural order. As far as things like eating go, it is entirely possible to become indulgent and over or under eat, both cases motivated by desire.

As far as Nirvana goes, it is indeed something to be realized; to be realized as being right here and right now. It is possible to become attached to it. True liberation involves not being attached to samsara or Nirvana, but being able to flow freely between them as circumstances change: the true Middle Way.

:peace:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
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Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 92
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: dblaney]
    #6603391 - 02/23/07 08:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

These are all good thoughts and i do agree that buddhists meant attachment rather then desire itself. Though it could be argued attachment is the desire to keep what you already have.
I guess this would mean a boddhisatva isnt attached to teaching goodness to people even if those actions are takin.
Acting from the heart or as crowley called it the true will is no doubt the place to be, which isnt within a rigid value system so to speak. I already knew that, but its a good point to bring up. (this "true will" is of course different then pure hedonism but the will to do what is truly healthy for you and the world)
I think maybe its a mistake to desire having no suffering at all in that if the ego is perfectly happy then it stops learning anything. For me I have noticed things usually go the most wrong right around when I think I am perfectly happy. This may sound cyncical but i am optimistic that such things happen for the best. I think that the fact that things dont seem perfect to the ego is just what makes them perfect in reality. Its good to never be satisfied and always hungry for more.
This has metaphysical ramifacations as well as certain energies must be present or they will seek to reastablish themselves sometimes violantly. (which is part of the idea behind flagellence i guess) Maybe the most healthy and ultimately the most enjoyable place to be is 90-95% happiness though of course its kind of ridiculous to quantify something like that and of course its always in flux. Its kind of like the grain of sand that makes the irritation for the creation pearl in an oyster. I think probibly as long as you act from your true will the universe will let you do pretty much anything you want. (not that i really think crowley was that great of a person)


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OfflineMystic_Cannibal
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Registered: 12/09/05
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Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6603395 - 02/23/07 08:34 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

This quote from floop says it pretty well

"The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sent iment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men."
-Albert Einstein


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,894
Re: a buddhist paradox [Re: Mystic_Cannibal]
    #6604025 - 02/23/07 11:13 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

beautiful romantic
:clap:


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