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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6594411 - 02/21/07 04:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

None of my topic was meant to be about drug use so if you mind not starting a useless tangent, thanks.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6594532 - 02/21/07 04:56 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
None of my topic was meant to be about drug use so if you mind not starting a useless tangent, thanks.




You specificially associated religion and the use of drugs, asserting that they are exactly similar in a manner that is a central aspect of your main point. I didn't just randomly start talking about it in a manner that relates to the ideas that you presented and associated with the main ideas of your presentation.

Quote:

inetiatic said:
Religion, drugs, anything in which people place their problems on is a form of a 'crutch' in which they cannot take the stress or reality of the real world, so numb their worries by praying to god to be healthy or blame their car accident on 'it was god's fate', or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




That was an excerpt from your main post. Furthermore,

Quote:

inetiatic said:
im discussing how drugs are useless




If none of you topic was meant to be about drug use than you would not have repeatedly demonstrated otherwise and asserted that it directly related to the idea that you were trying to convey. That which I expressed on the matter was not a useless tangent, and it was entirely on-topic. I would suggest being more aware of what you are actually posting. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6594550 - 02/21/07 05:00 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I do not understand what you mean. It is obvious that existence (including my own as 'a' being) partakes of, and participates in Being Itself. The Platonic Good, Christian theologian Paul Tillich's "Ground of Being," the Johannine "Logos," adopted (most likely) from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria and written of in Acts 17:22-31:

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Personified, a language that galls many people (bothers me too), yet the immediacy of the Godhead - Being - is what this Pauline passage attempts to convey, and one that has always reminded me of the Christian symbol of the IXTHIOS, the fish, a symbol of Christ. Christ swims in the 'Infinite Ocean' and KNOWS that He is composed mostly of 'water,' while the unrealized multitudes of fish do not even know that they're wet! As in the 22nd Logion of The Gospel According to Thomas:

"...when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner..."

To me, my participation in Being is completely evident. It is more immediate even than Descarte's "I think therefore I am" because simple being is prior to thinking. I believe the 'will,' or 'intention' is prior to 'intellect.' With no more than will, consciousness directed to itself, one intuits 'being' even before one is capable of thinking - the wake-up call of being born - or being born again!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6595217 - 02/21/07 07:33 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
...or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




Please elaborate on this. What exactly is the difference between smoking marijuana to relax, stretching one's body and taking deep breaths to relax, or putting on soothing music to relax? Are all evidence that the person involved in such is weak? :what:



I personally think that the need to constantly point to other people's beliefs or habits as a sign of "weakness" is itself a sign of weakness(yes, I realize that I just implicated myself with this statement).


--------------------

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OfflineSacred_Fool
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6595967 - 02/21/07 10:33 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I have come to my religious, or spiritual, beliefs through obsessive examination and experimentation. I never stop questioning, reading, and experimenting. I was raised atheist, and was force fed things like, "God does not exist." You want to know why I believe in God? Sometimes I can hear God. God(s) give me messages in dreams, visions, and through other people or spirits. Or maybe I'm just rebelling from my atheist upbringing. Of course I can't prove this, and of course I could be completely insane. I've been to a few therapists about this and they conclude that I am sane. Oh well, maybe next time!

I doubt intelligence has much to do with religion, but for whatever it is worth my GPA is 4.0 and I consider myself religious.

Edited by Sacred_Fool (02/21/07 10:40 PM)

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Sacred_Fool]
    #6596261 - 02/22/07 12:31 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sacred_Fool said:
I have come to my religious, or spiritual, beliefs through obsessive examination and experimentation. I never stop questioning, reading, and experimenting. I was raised atheist, and was force fed things like, "God does not exist." You want to know why I believe in God? Sometimes I can hear God. God(s) give me messages in dreams, visions, and through other people or spirits. Or maybe I'm just rebelling from my atheist upbringing. Of course I can't prove this, and of course I could be completely insane. I've been to a few therapists about this and they conclude that I am sane. Oh well, maybe next time!

I doubt intelligence has much to do with religion, but for whatever it is worth my GPA is 4.0 and I consider myself religious.




See, therein lies the problem man. It's all "feeling," "visions," "dreams," etc...

we have two explanations for those...

1) God
2) Delusions/Illusions

We at least have a somewhat physical and rational explanation for the second one... the first is a conjecture - quite the reason-defying, unintelligble one too I might add.

If there is this omnipotent, omnibenevolent, first-cause all perfect being that created everything... incuding ourselves in "his" image, one would think he would've given us the faculty to conclude his existence with some sort of reason or intuition... something that can be explained and understood with consistency.

This isn't the case... and then you could come up with all kinds of plausible reasons as to why mankind may have created this illusory figure... (comfort, purpose, "moral" obedience, opiate of the masses, etc)

Furthermore, throughout recorded history people have attributed the unknown to a higher power... and as human knowledge and understanding progressed through science and discovery, we became more and more enlightened. We now have the Big Bang singularities theory for creation, evidence for expansion, theories for an eventual contraction, and now the possibility of multiple universes... (it isn't even possible for us to conceptualize such a notion as we can't even grasp a fraction of the one in which we exist)

all of this though is backed by some phenomenal mathematics and physics that has yet to come close to being disproved.

Toss evolution into the mix and it becomes very difficult to conclude, or even hypothesize the existence of a god.








Edited by Continuum (02/22/07 12:43 AM)

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6596289 - 02/22/07 12:55 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Unfortunately I don't have the time to read all this right now, so I'll just add a quick response.

Seems like there are plenty of people who are both religious and intelligent. They might not be the highest of intellects, but just because someone's religious are they automatically not intelligent? I think a better question might be "How can someone be religious if they are intelligent?", while it might not seem like it I think there are differences in the questions.

Also, there are some things in this world that people are unable to wrap their head around. Some don't feel science has appropriately disproved any sort of higher being through things such as the big bang theory and the such. Is it wrong for people who don't feel that their concept of what is possible and what is natural can't explain the way some things happen/are to go on to believe that there is some sort of higher being? This seems to be intelligent, you can't rationally prove (or disprove) something through the things to know to be real and possible, so there must be something that allows impossibilites to happen. Just throwing it out there.

Finally, while SATs and such don't necessarily accurately reflect knowledge, in general the people who do well on them are intelligent people. Since intelligent people usually succeed more in the school system, and through advance placements and such, they gain more experience that is required to succeed in the highest form on such tests. So while the questions themselves do not reflect intelligence, I feel that they are about as close as we can come to figure out who is and who is not intelligent through a standardized test (I realize this last part is totally off topic, but I wanted to add it in.)


--------------------
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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: jewunit]
    #6596840 - 02/22/07 09:30 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

what about the religions that favor education the most?

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6596955 - 02/22/07 10:32 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i wouldn't say thats a true statement but i do see your logic.

Sometimes people want to believe and sometimes they don't regardless of intelligence. All humans are capable of ignorance.

i don't believe in religions because
1. Theres so many of them - which should you choose lol
2. if God wanted to present his existance then why would it be in the form of another human telling me - or some old text written by another human
3. it appears to be a result of the thinking mind - to answer the biggest questions we have - how and why are we here?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6597039 - 02/22/07 11:12 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
...or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




Please elaborate on this. What exactly is the difference between smoking marijuana to relax, stretching one's body and taking deep breaths to relax, or putting on soothing music to relax? Are all evidence that the person involved in such is weak? :what:



I personally think that the need to constantly point to other people's beliefs or habits as a sign of "weakness" is itself a sign of weakness(yes, I realize that I just implicated myself with this statement).




If you have the need to constantly point out others weaknesses, then I would agree this is itself a weakness.

It is acceptable to observe some behavior or action and conclude it proceeded from weakness. There is a difference between belittling others to enhance your own self-image by comparison and inferring weakness because a person is unable to perform some task without a crutch. Its often hard to tell the difference, though.

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OfflineSacred_Fool
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Continuum]
    #6597235 - 02/22/07 12:51 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

See, therein lies the problem man. It's all "feeling," "visions," "dreams," etc...

we have two explanations for those...

1) God
2) Delusions/Illusions

We at least have a somewhat physical and rational explanation for the second one... the first is a conjecture - quite the reason-defying, unintelligble one too I might add.




I can certainly agree with you here, which is why I have pursued psychological evaluation. I'm not through with that process yet, even though I have been told I am sane. Rational explanations can only be achieved by observing religion through a scientific, logical viewpoint. To be able to experience a religion you have to shift paradigms from mundane to spiritual. No wonder we have trouble describing it or measuring it.   

Quote:

If there is this omnipotent, omnibenevolent, first-cause all perfect being that created everything... incuding ourselves in "his" image, one would think he would've given us the faculty to conclude his existence with some sort of reason or intuition... something that can be explained and understood with consistency.




It seems to me that you are defining God in a very Judeo-Christian way. The way I view the Gods is somewhat different. I am not overly concerned with creation. I believe there is a type of intuition we can sense the Gods with, but it is something that can't be explained very well, and certainly lacks consistency.

Quote:

This isn't the case... and then you could come up with all kinds of plausible reasons as to why mankind may have created this illusory figure... (comfort, purpose, "moral" obedience, opiate of the masses, etc)




I can certainly agree with you here too, the only thing I would point out is that ethical systems and religion do not necessarily go hand in hand. Let me just put it this way; some Atheists are more moral than some Christians.

Quote:

Furthermore, throughout recorded history people have attributed the unknown to a higher power... and as human knowledge and understanding progressed through science and discovery, we became more and more enlightened. We now have the Big Bang singularities theory for creation, evidence for expansion, theories for an eventual contraction, and now the possibility of multiple universes... (it isn't even possible for us to conceptualize such a notion as we can't even grasp a fraction of the one in which we exist)




I would really like to see someone elaborate on the similarities between quantum physics and eastern religions. I'm a humanities student, so science is not my strong point, but from the little I can understand I do not think science and religion are so opposing. Especially if you compare quantum theories with eastern philosophy/religion. The difference is that science uses its paradigm to prove things, and a religion uses its paradigm to view things. 

Quote:

all of this though is backed by some phenomenal mathematics and physics that has yet to come close to being disproved.

Toss evolution into the mix and it becomes very difficult to conclude, or even hypothesize the existence of a god.




It may be difficult to hypothesize the existence of a God in a scientific paradigm, but others do not find it so difficult. Even some scientists are religious. I believe Albert Einstein was religious.

Moderator edit: Fixed horrible misuse of quote tags. :grin:

Edited by fireworks_god (02/22/07 03:04 PM)

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OfflineSacred_Fool
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: coopypants]
    #6597247 - 02/22/07 12:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

coopypants said:
what about the religions that favor education the most?




If you notice, it is that type of religion that has the most tolerance.

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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Sacred_Fool]
    #6598277 - 02/22/07 04:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Sacred_Fool said:
Quote:

coopypants said:
what about the religions that favor education the most?




If you notice, it is that type of religion that has the most tolerance.




and the most humanistic.

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Sacred_Fool]
    #6600078 - 02/22/07 11:11 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I can certainly agree with you here too, the only thing I would point out is that ethical systems and religion do not necessarily go hand in hand. Let me just put it this way; some Atheists are more moral than some Christians.





ahhh, but we have an underlying presumption here that we actually know what "moral" is... or have some sort of definition. I see nothing wrong with recreational drug use or random sex (all necessary precautions of course) but alot of christians would consider these "immoral."

but I get your point, and agree entirely.

Quote:


I would really like to see someone elaborate on the similarities between quantum physics and eastern religions. I'm a humanities student, so science is not my strong point, but from the little I can understand I do not think science and religion are so opposing. Especially if you compare quantum theories with eastern philosophy/religion. The difference is that science uses its paradigm to prove things, and a religion uses its paradigm to view things.

It may be difficult to hypothesize the existence of a God in a scientific paradigm, but others do not find it so difficult. Even some scientists are religious. I believe Albert Einstein was religious.






"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

-Albert Einstein

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