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Offlineinetiatic
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Being religious contradicts being intelligent?
    #6591507 - 02/20/07 09:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Can you truly be intelligent if you are religious?

The idea of how one is 'intelligent' is if you are able to achieve a high 'sat' score or 'good grades' or you know whats going on in the world. A large vocabulary, or any of societies typical branding of 'smart', does this truly make you 'intelligent'?

The simple ideas i stated above are all forms of memorization, none in which are ideas or thoughts which arise from analytical thought processes.

So by all of this, if you are religious, you really cant be truly 'intelligent'. Coming to analytical conclusions in our world BEGINS with questioning the most practiced idea in our world, religion.

Analytical concolsions and ideas show the true though proccess of someone, their ability to arrive to conclusions on their own, render and create their own ideas.

So how can one truly believe 'god' and also be 'intelliget'. Someone or something created our world, or that 'god' controls our fates or our 'luck' or 'health'? If you believe god controls our world tell me why.

Religion, drugs, anything in which people place their problems on is a form of a 'crutch' in which they cannot take the stress or reality of the real world, so numb their worries by praying to god to be healthy or blame their car accident on 'it was god's fate', or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.


So if you are religious, you are a weak person. Because you are unable to deal with stresses or problems in our world, and or believe in something so fucking silly.

Discuss.

Edited by inetiatic (02/20/07 10:13 PM)

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591588 - 02/20/07 10:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

How do you define intelligence. You said an SAT score, what does an SAT score have to do wit scoring in real life. Nothing.

Then what do you really equate intelligence to. I'd equate it to personnel prosperity, in which people have reached such goals with different belief sets. Besides religion is a routine, and everyone is indoctrinated to something whether they realize it or not.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: capliberty]
    #6591608 - 02/20/07 10:04 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

everyone is indoctrinated to something whether they realize it or not




Amen to that.

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591652 - 02/20/07 10:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I stated how i 'define' intelligence. The ability to reach conclusions on your own, question your surroundings, deeper ideas of how things are or how they became.

I also think you misread my writing, i stated the next paragraph about how those this are very artifical and meaningless.

Everyone IS indoctrinated to something, but is it wrong to attempt to break out of this? Question your self critically, constantly wondering your ideas contradict them selves.

Granted to not be indoctrinated to anything, is being indoctrinated.

But my topic is that being RELIGIOUS its self contradicts being truley intelligent. Not if you are indoctrinated in something, they are different things.

Edited by inetiatic (02/20/07 10:15 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591680 - 02/20/07 10:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


in·tel·li·gence /ɪnˈtɛlɪd58;əns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-tel-i-juhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.




Now, how do you define being "religious"?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6591691 - 02/20/07 10:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

You believe in something 'created' our world 'something' controls what happens 'something' controls our future. Or even the 'something unexplainable'. Everything happens because it happens, not because its a set path or 'outside' control

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591724 - 02/20/07 10:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
Can you truly be intelligent if you are religious?



Absolutely. My grandfather is a theologian, and the most intelligent man I know.


--------------------

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591726 - 02/20/07 10:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i've often wondered the same thing... how can a truly intelligent person not question such an unintelligible thing? even if countless people believe it?

then, I realized two of the smartest people I know are religious to some extent (nothing crazy)... trust me, they're probably "smarter" than you too, however you define smart.

Knowing these two so well, I decided believing in a deity involves more than just intelligence, or lack thereof. many factors are involved... we're human and will at times seek comfort over insight, if you will.

or perhaps they're somehow enlightened? I really don't know.... regardless, I'm still a hard agnostic

but generally, I would agree that evangelicals and other extremely religious people aren't very bright... or, if they are otherwise intelligent, then they're delusional and perhaps suffer from some degree of psychosis? there's gotta me some explanation lol

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591731 - 02/20/07 10:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not certain that your definition of being religious pertains to religion in general... perhaps the nature of a certain religion or aspects of certain religious behavior...

At any rate, there are numerous intelligent individuals who consider themselves to be practitioners of religion. Religion typically pertains to beliefs that address the nature of reality, its purpose or cause. While some religions might be institutionalized to a great extent, and a good portion of those who pratice these religions might not have the greatest capability to think or understand, or fully realize the nature of their beliefs and why they hold onto these beliefs, there are also a wide variety of individuals who reach their own conclusions about the nature of reality, for their own reasons, after careful consideration and skillful means of thought.

I'm inclined to suspect that practicing a religion, in and of itself, does not have any relevance to whether or not said individual is intelligent.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591736 - 02/20/07 10:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Religion, drugs, anything in which people place their problems on is a form of a 'crutch' in which they cannot take the stress or reality of the real world, so numb their worries by praying to god to be healthy or blame their car accident on 'it was god's fate', or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.





What would you suggest that religious folk do instead?

From the point of view of a religious faithful it is rational to pray to God during the case of a crisis.

Religious folk believe in their doctrines because they find those doctrines to be logical and evident. In a similar vein, religious folk do question their doctrines. I concede that the majority of religious faithfuls do not question their faith nor do they even consider the possible that they could be in error (one could figure this out simply by reading the Sam Harris quote in my signature). However, there are many "intelligent" individuals who do.

Consider C.S. Lewis, the epitome of Christian apologists. Lewis went from being a staunch Atheist to one of the most profound aficiandos of Christianity.

What compelled Lewis' change in worldview? Philosophical thought and discourse; honest inquiry. This man did not arrive at his Christian faith through blind faith nor did he simply turn to religion as some sort of lifesaver.

Not that I agree with Lewis, but I must grant him credit for questioning his faith.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591768 - 02/20/07 10:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

SAT scores are without a doubt the best way to judge intelligence. I know this because I scored in the top 1% of the population, so clearly it must be true (circular reasoning- judging a test by the way I've scored highly on the test and using that as credentials leads to a closed system that may have no truth value).

Intelligence is a word used by people to manipulate other people. Usually the people they manipulate fall for it, so there is a system of success using the mental faculties and failure by conforming to someone else's ulterior motives, but this cannot be judged by any test other than experience. I scored an extremely high score on the SATs, so I could use this to manipulate other people and assert myself as correct on issues I have no clue about. This little trick is used by everyone from the government to corporations to the media. If you're well-spoken, make historical connections and present the issue in the right way, you're bound to gain power over others, although in most cases this doesn't help the development of humanity.

Religious people aren't stupid, but they are, in most cases, manipulated in a top-down system. They lower themselves by subscribing to the words of others, especially when, in the case of religion, those words cannot be backed up by studies, repetition or reliable evidence.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591800 - 02/20/07 10:40 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

By the way, my grandfather is a Christian and he has an IQ of 165. He's the farthest from unintelligent that you can get.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591806 - 02/20/07 10:42 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

What about someone who has an IQ of 166? :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6591809 - 02/20/07 10:42 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I'm inclined to suspect that practicing a religion, in and of itself, does not have any relevance to whether or not said individual is intelligent.




If you would actually READ my writing, im saying that the true meaning of being 'intelligent' is the ability to analyze, your surrounding how it became what it will become and why it is like it is. Analytically questioning society and culture, as well as ones self. Thus believing in something as farfetched as a 'belief' is almost hilarious, so one who truely is 'intelligent', im asking how THEY or YOU can believe in a 'god' or a power out of our control.

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Ravus]
    #6591812 - 02/20/07 10:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SAT scores are without a doubt the best way to judge intelligence. I know this because I scored in the top 1% of the population, so clearly it must be true (circular reasoning- judging a test by the way I've scored highly on the test and using that as credentials leads to a closed system that may have no truth value).




I disagree here. Perhaps if you're defining intelligence as that which the SAT measures, verbal and quantificational aptitude, then fine... but even then there's a large part of that exam that exists in preparation.

The fact that good SAT prep courses command a price tag well over $1000 reflects this... nevermind the disparity between schools.

btw, I was a high scorer as well.

Concerning the rest of your post, I can reason with most -- if not all of it

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591842 - 02/20/07 10:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Again you three, contraz on being able to repeat information presented to you. You cant measure ones ability to be 'intelligent' by their 'knowledge'

I now have concluded i should have worded my question/topic better. People who 'score well on SAT or have a high IQ' may have nothing they have concluded by them selves. I know this is a generalization, and plenty of exceptions, but for a majority of our population(Majority being everyone who is religious)

You or your grandfather, may have a high IQ or good SAT scores, but im asking WHAT you see in religion, or how you believe there is a god, or outside 'power'

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Continuum]
    #6591843 - 02/20/07 10:48 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

You might want to read his post again and contemplate whether or not he is making a subtle point. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6591864 - 02/20/07 10:51 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


I now have concluded i should have worded my question/topic better.




Yes, indeed.

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591872 - 02/20/07 10:52 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Rather than agreeing, care to share your ideas rather than making a pointless post.

How can your grandfather, or you, believe in something so out there, as an outside power or a 'god'?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591886 - 02/20/07 10:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
How can your grandfather, or you, believe in something so out there, as an outside power or a 'god'?



Maybe because to some people, it's not so "out there." Some people do not simply swallow propaganda about God, but in fact feel the divine presence in their daily life.


--------------------

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591899 - 02/20/07 10:57 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There's no need to denigrate my post by labeling it as "pointless." I am simply agreeing that you are in error by making blanket statements such as 'religious faithfuls are unintelligent' and 'religious individuals are weak.'

Quote:

so out there, as an outside power or a 'god'




What classifies "out there?"

To the majority of the United States populace the idea of God is anything but "out there."

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591902 - 02/20/07 10:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
Thus believing in something as farfetched as a 'belief' is almost hilarious, so one who truely is 'intelligent', im asking how THEY or YOU can believe in a 'god' or a power out of our control.




Believing in a belief? :confused:

I believe that the earth's rotation will produce the phenomenon that we refer to as the sun rising tomorrow. I accept that this is valid.

I personally would not base a belief upon something that I could not observe or otherwise provide substantiation for. Intelligent individuals can arrive at beliefs, taking into consideration the information that they have derived from their experience. Others might question the validity of these conclusions that they feel confident in making, yet this does not demonstrate that they are not intelligent in reaching these conclusions.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6591912 - 02/20/07 11:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Divine presence is very outlandish, care to explain? Who's to say these are not simple triggers by your brain to make you enjoy things, or feel 'warmth' by actions or thoughts? Maybe the difference in religions is the difference in the humans brain to enjoy/feel warmth for different actions or thoughts?

I see all these religions as who can brain wash the masses better.

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6591918 - 02/20/07 11:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
How can your grandfather, or you, believe in something so out there, as an outside power or a 'god'?



Maybe because to some people, it's not so "out there." Some people do not simply swallow propaganda about God, but in fact feel the divine presence in their daily life.




surely, given the fact that you're on this site, you've had some pscyhedelic experiences, no?

your brain, if working in the appropriate manner, can make you "feel" and "think" alot of crazy things... and this is with or without drugs.


Hence, it'll have to be more than a "feeling" to convince anyone seriously inquisitive.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591941 - 02/20/07 11:03 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Who's to say these are not simple triggers by your brain to make you enjoy things, or feel 'warmth' by actions or thoughts?




Who's to say that these chemical reactions are not communicative devices employed by God?

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Continuum]
    #6591943 - 02/20/07 11:04 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I have actually never put anything in my body in which alters my mind. Apart from the small doses of caffeine and common chemicals/substances.

I have never, drank,smoke, eat or taken anything in my life that alters my brain. (EG:No alcohol, marajuana ect.)

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591955 - 02/20/07 11:06 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
I have actually never put anything in my body in which alters my mind. Apart from the small doses of caffeine and common chemicals/substances.

I have never, drank,smoke, eat or taken anything in my life that alters my brain. (EG:No alcohol, marajuana ect.)




I was actually talking to the other guy, but you can probably imagine I'm quite curious anyway: what the hell brings you here? lol

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6591958 - 02/20/07 11:06 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
I have never, drank,smoke, eat or taken anything in my life that alters my brain. (EG:No alcohol, marajuana ect.)




Don't be so certain. There are innumerable aspects of our environment which interact with us in manners that alter our consciousness and our chemical compositions in our brains. Unless your sense of smell, hearing, sight, taste, and touch do not function, then your brain is being altered all the time.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Continuum]
    #6591972 - 02/20/07 11:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Continuum said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
How can your grandfather, or you, believe in something so out there, as an outside power or a 'god'?



Maybe because to some people, it's not so "out there." Some people do not simply swallow propaganda about God, but in fact feel the divine presence in their daily life.




surely, given the fact that you're on this site, you've had some pscyhedelic experiences, no?

your brain, if working in the appropriate manner, can make you "feel" and "think" alot of crazy things... and this is with or without drugs.


Hence, it'll have to be more than a "feeling" to convince anyone seriously inquisitive.



Convince, maybe not. But it can certainly inspire, and lead one to investigate further.


--------------------

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6591982 - 02/20/07 11:10 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

Who's to say these are not simple triggers by your brain to make you enjoy things, or feel 'warmth' by actions or thoughts?




Who's to say that these chemical reactions are not communicative devices employed by God?





So you are telling me, an unknown, no way to be proven 'power' is altering your mind/and its thought proccess. So if i can conclude on what you are saying, thousands of religions in the world IS really the battle between what 'god'(If 'god' is what controls our BRAIN functions) is able to influence ones mind the most?

But then if this 'third party' power was to control your thought proccess globally...Why are different religions focused on specific cultures, specific meaning ones culture geographically, economically and politically.

Does this mean one religion evolves in different surroundings? Their beliefs are based off of their culture, and their culture off their beliefs. But then why are the core ideas behind religions so vastly different from one another.

You cannot tell me a ;third power; is a global thing, nor local thing, because it is so heavily influenced by our cultures and societes. Such social 'norm's today have evolved from when religions writings were adopted, so you are saying 'god' has evovled to match our drug, fast food, telivison watching culture.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592008 - 02/20/07 11:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So you are telling me, an unknown, no way to be proven 'power' is altering your mind/and its thought proccess




No, I'm asking you to consider the possibility. If you're truly as rational as you claim then you would not throw the possibility of God's existence out the window without first examining the matter yourself.

I forget exactly whose, but I came across this quote in a member's signature:

"It is the hallmark of the believer, not the skeptic, to discard a claim without viewing the evidence."

Furthermore, why do you think God does not exist?

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592028 - 02/20/07 11:19 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

an unknown, no way to be proven 'power'




Couldn't you also classify the Big Bang Theory as being unprovable? Or evolution?

These ideas are neither reproducible nor are they observable, which from my recollection, violates the fundamental rules of science.

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592053 - 02/20/07 11:24 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Evolution is not reproducable, but it is seen and illustrated through STRONG evidence. In so many ways it has been seen, simple things as the evolution of man, or the evolution of culture, or simple things like why zebra's have stripes?

Something like 'god' has no evidence behind it, at all.

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592088 - 02/20/07 11:29 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

fundamental rules of science.


Science bases its predictions or conclusions off of evidence, strong ussually, but at least evidence.

An outer power, has no evidence surround it.

Please show me where god created adam and eve, or controls that you get hit by a car.

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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592120 - 02/20/07 11:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Something like 'god' has no evidence behind it, at all.




But what about Creationism?

Irreducible complexity? The Cambrian Explosion?

I would say those two examples that I just listed could be reasonably construed as evidence for Creationism.

Quote:

but it is seen and illustrated through STRONG evidence




What evidence?

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592138 - 02/20/07 11:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

What evidence?


Zebra's have their strong stripes because over time horses without small ammount of stripes, and or any stripes were easily targeted via enemey. Over time 'Zebra' became what it is today because of its evolutionary need to adapt to survive.

Animals in which have very similar distinct features EG: house cat, from a bob cat, or a cougar. These animals one day were in fact the same, but over time evolved for the need to adapt to survive.

Dont even get me started on human evolution, and the strong evidence behind fossils ect.

The fear churches have from the idea of 'evolution' is outlandish, if i can dig a few articles up of major churches and religious groups enforcing the closing of musem displays of prehistoric fossils illustrating evolution ect.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592171 - 02/20/07 11:49 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Dont even get me started on human evolution, and the strong evidence behind fossils ect.




I'm familiar with the evidence for evolution myself, I'm just not willing to take your word for something without you supporting your claim.

Back to what I said earlier:

Quote:




But what about Creationism?

Irreducible complexity? The Cambrian Explosion?

I would say those two examples that I just listed could be reasonably construed as evidence for Creationism.




You make it seem that the evidence for Evolution is in abundance compared to that of Creationism. In reality, the battleground is level.

What do you think of the examples aforementioned?

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592216 - 02/20/07 11:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I will do the same but will you look back at my ideas on how cluture and society influence ones thought, as well as then directly influencing that cultures idea of 'religion'?

The whole idea of religion is a waste of my time to argue with you now, the affects of culture and society affecting the creation of thousands of different religions and sects.

I my self first concluded upon Creationism when i was a younger kid, concluding how absurd it was that someone or something controlled outcomes and actions, i knew only i controlled these. I concluded hey maybe god created the neccessary things for evolution to begin?

There is nothing wrong with the ideas behind Creationism, but how do explain the current daily desires for prayer ect?

You are side tracking from the point im making in which religious practices occur, how can one truely believe right now god is a force in our world?

Granted over all Creationism is the only 'religous idea' in which is understandable, but it is understandable because rather than basing belief on facts(EG actions today) it is basing belief upon beliefs. It is 'believeable' because there is nothing to disbelieve. Where as science basis its conclusion upon evidence, even if it is minor.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592218 - 02/20/07 11:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm one of those crazy stupid blokes that believes in an Uncaused Cause. But I'll attempt to illustrate...

I believe in God - I also believe the universe is approx. 13-14 billion years old and that bio-physically homosapiens are bipedal primates. When I read interesting blurbs in Discovery Magazine, I generally accept it as truth. I revere Albert Einstein as an expert in his field and for the most part accept all observations of the functionality of physical phenomena.

If you still feel I'm not "intelligent", I don't really want any part in your popularity contest.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592226 - 02/21/07 12:02 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

About the universe (creation, big bang, etc)... take a look at Stephen Hawkings theories about singularities and the possibility of multiple universes

the concepts are mindblowing... we cannot even begin to grasp how insignificant we really are

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Basilides]
    #6592266 - 02/21/07 12:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

But im asking WHY do you still believe in god? WHY Do you conclude that there is another force in your life. And can you tell me how it is not a crutch or a desire to accept the unknown, or place blame or trust in something unknown.

And popularity contest? Fuck off. Come to a revolation in your life and spill out your ideas, how is that a popularity contest?

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Basilides]
    #6592269 - 02/21/07 12:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


You are side tracking from the point im making in which religious practices occur




Although I may seem to be in opposition to you, I am truly not. My digression from the focal point of this debate was to show you that you should not complacently state that religion is wrong; God is unprovable etc. etc.

As stressed by science, all explanations are tentative and therefore cannot be held as fact. So, I was merely pointing that you cannot conclude that Evolution is fact or that it is a fact that God does not exist.

Quote:

how can one truely believe right now god is a force in our world




I can sympathize with you here. Suffering occurs ubiquitously and is an undeniable experience.

"If there is so much suffering going on, what the hell is God doing sitting up there in the clouds?" That is a question I have asked myself many times.

Remember, we can not prove anything. We can only shade the probability of something.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592303 - 02/21/07 12:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
But im asking WHY do you still believe in god? WHY Do you conclude that there is another force in your life. And can you tell me how it is not a crutch or a desire to accept the unknown, or place blame or trust in something unknown.




My belief in God comes from observing Jungian-esque 'Pure Ideas' consistent in a perennial trend within virtually all religious and spiritual traditions.

Quote:

And popularity contest? Fuck off. Come to a revolation in your life and spill out your ideas, how is that a popularity contest?




*Revelation


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592306 - 02/21/07 12:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I know the same time behind my arguements, there is unknown even in scientific ideas and theories. This leaves the opening for the ability to have full ideas and thoughts such as religion a positiblity becausee there is no opposing alternative in which is completely true. But why do you not go with the side in which has more evidence, and or makes more 'sense'.

It seems the masses goes with the 'safer' route, they want to put all their eggs in one basket and because IF the outcomes of death or positives of religion ARE true they feel they well benifit from religion, rather than shunning them self from the positiblity of eternal happiness.

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592312 - 02/21/07 12:23 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

im discussing how drugs are useless, debating with multiple people over instant messengers, and have no time to keep up proper spelling in words. Frankly it doesnt matter as long as my ideas get across, in which they did. Sorry teacher. But really you cant conclude analytically to anything, so instead you correct my spelling. You are a fine example of what iam describing, you say you read something and can agree in its truth. But right there im saying you are not 'intelligent' Read the rest of this and apply everything i say to your self, then respond.

Moderator edit: Removed flame. Please take some time to review the forum rules and guidelines that is stickied at the top of this forum. Flames are not permitted as they serve as a detriment to the discussion of the topic at hand. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Edited by fireworks_god (02/21/07 05:41 AM)

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592320 - 02/21/07 12:24 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

But why do you not go with the side in which has more evidence, and or makes more 'sense'.




Is there really more evidence for Evolution than there is for Creationism? Have you tallied up a score of how many pieces of evidence Evolution has versus that of Creationism?

And how does Evolution make more 'sense?'

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592327 - 02/21/07 12:28 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

But why do you not go with the side in which has more evidence, and or makes more 'sense'.




Is there really more evidence for Evolution than there is for Creationism? Have you tallied up a score of how many pieces of evidence Evolution has versus that of Creationism?

And how does Evolution make more 'sense?'




I described.
Creationism is able to be accepted because of the space of unkown in such ideas as evolution. There is evidence behind evolution, strong evidence, but the spaces in the evidence in which creationism can fill.

But none of this is answering my question i proposed, why do you still believe in a curretn day presence of god?

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592333 - 02/21/07 12:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
Hey asshole, im discussing how drugs are useless, debating with multiple people over instant messengers, and have no time to keep up proper spelling in words. Frankly it doesnt matter as long as my ideas get across, in which they did. Sorry teacher. But really you cant conclude analytically to anything, so instead you correct my spelling. You are a fine example of what iam describing, you say you read something and can agree in its truth. But right there im saying you are not 'intelligent' Read the rest of this and apply everything i say to your self, then respond.




Well, I am but human - and resisting irony is not one of my strengths.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Basilides]
    #6592338 - 02/21/07 12:33 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

why do you still believe in a curretn day presence of god




What "God" are you referring to?

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592350 - 02/21/07 12:36 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry i said 'god' what ever 'extra force' you feel, if you do feel one, and this is what i mean when i described being 'religious'

Besides all of this you have changed the subject of the topic.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592352 - 02/21/07 12:38 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There is evidence behind evolution, strong evidence, but the spaces in the evidence in which creationism can fill.





I contend that Evolution and Creationism are anything but harmonious, they are diametrically opposed.

Creationism does not compensate for the Theory of Evolution, it honestly opposes it.

Consider the example I gave earlier, irreducible complexity. To say that something is irreducibly complex is to dispose of the need for any sort of evolution since it cannot be broken down any further from what it is.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #6592378 - 02/21/07 12:51 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

To avoid upsetting you anymore, I'll give you a simple, brief answer to your question:

I believe that there is a "God" insofar as this "God" is defined as being a force. I do not subscribe to the belief of God as being any of the images confabulated by mainstream religions.

All I know is that the universe could not have occurred Ex Nihilo, there must have been some sort of First Mover. You can't put "nothing" and "nothing" together to form "something."

Whatever it is that initiated the universe, that is what I call God.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6592800 - 02/21/07 05:57 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Where do you think your intelligence comes from? Indeed, where do you think existence emerges from, itself? What did The Singularity emerge from 10 to the minus 43 seconds ago? Do you want to give 'It' another Name? Do you want to make 'time' your 'god,' or how about 'chance,' and relegate the precision of life in the Great Chain of Being to random reactions during aeons of time? Is that comprehensible to you? If so, it isn't The Mystery that is called God, it is just another human who can't see the forest for the trees because he's too busy try to lifthimself up by his own bootstraps. Time and the mathematical probability that relates to spacio-temporal events both emerged from The Singularity as well. God must be ontologically prior to all existents.

I am intelligent AND my life is focused on God. Am I really unintelligent? Is my life not focused on God? Am I lying? If both original assertions are true, then intelligent people believe in God.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6593052 - 02/21/07 08:39 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It all depends on what one means by the term religious and the term God. There is no black and white statement to be made here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6593215 - 02/21/07 10:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Where do you think your intelligence comes from? Indeed, where do you think existence emerges from, itself? What did The Singularity emerge from 10 to the minus 43 seconds ago? Do you want to give 'It' another Name? Do you want to make 'time' your 'god,' or how about 'chance,' and relegate the precision of life in the Great Chain of Being to random reactions during aeons of time? Is that comprehensible to you? If so, it isn't The Mystery that is called God, it is just another human who can't see the forest for the trees because he's too busy try to lifthimself up by his own bootstraps. Time and the mathematical probability that relates to spacio-temporal events both emerged from The Singularity as well. God must be ontologically prior to all existents.

I am intelligent AND my life is focused on God. Am I really unintelligent? Is my life not focused on God? Am I lying? If both original assertions are true, then intelligent people believe in God.




Yes, but my second question i proposed was 'What makes you believe their is a god or nother force in which you are under their control' The idea of where we came from can easily be debated and i can easily agree with creationism. But im talking about daily impacts of religion

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6593879 - 02/21/07 01:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Religion, drugs, anything in which people place their problems on is a form of a 'crutch' in which they cannot take the stress or reality of the real world, so numb their worries by praying to god to be healthy or blame their car accident on 'it was god's fate', or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




:thumbup:

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6594015 - 02/21/07 02:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

intelligence seems linked to survival

one is deemed to be intelligent in capacities to push money and in order to push money one must amass knowledge of how to push money.

one may have expert mastery in knowledge of wildlife, nature, camping, survival skills, outsdoorsman activities, and yet do very very poorly on an IQ test. This would have us believe he is un-intelligent, when in fact if society were to collapse, all the nerds would be mocked as idiots and all the lumberjacks would be the smartest guys around.

IQ scores have been used to state that there is conclusive proof that ethnic minorities are retarded....... this shows how extremely fickle they are. Susceptible completely to cultural bias.......

I have only skimmed page one but is there a way to define "intelligence" by what it "actually" means, rather than as an academic standard, or something of the sort.

An assessment of various spatial and verbal skills and perhaps measuring how quickly one can learn new tasks, or something of the matter.... but it all does seem rather vague and divisive.

intelligence is designed so that we can be proud and call others stupid?

such as, we have intelligence but animals don't, therefore we can destroy their habitats and decimate the environment, which is actually not an intelligent thing to do at all.

also the Mayans were "religious" and quite intelligent, weren't they? Dogmatic suppression of rational thought, inquiry, and will seems to thwart intelligence, however not all religious operate on suppression, some operate on progressive enlightenment by constant redifining and re-evluation of the "truths" these paths hold, so that one is not limited by the word true, but rather eventually learns how to bypass the word true into the source(TRUE)

It is not true that television is evil. However, it is true that television is evil. It depends on how deep you look, and whether you accept "tv is evil" as a dogma, or you investigate and understand that making such a statement is a limitation due to the capacity of words, but still has layers of truth (in this case we will say "empirical evidence" is synonomous with "truth") in it.

Yet that single sentence could be said from someone who is vastly ignorant on the topic. It could be said by a psychologist who has researched it his entire life. It could come from personal experience by really looking at agendas and motives, and observing how emotional states are impacted by content and paying attention to reality.

Or it could be a gaudy campaign sticker (if anyone could help me think of a better metaphor it would be appreciated ) handed out by your religion to tout around in order to create an image and perceived reality of supremacy, having never ever ever been investigated or thought of by the individual.

A meme basically. A dogma. But it all wrangles back to the idea of source and reception. The Bible is both a dogma and not a dogma.

To point this at me, I am just compiling things I have already said and thought before.... ideas are tricky, we seem content to be lazy with them and not discover new ones.....

AND

we will enjoy giving our opinion and contributing no matter what the opinion is, even if it be so "fickle" as "No way, G dub is awesome" or as complex as a 3 page essay...... once it is rehearsed it is as if critical thinking takes a backseat..... but if we sit and question the validity of our ideas...... ......................

........................

In general it would seem the world would function best if people were hesitant about proclaiming truths, and kept in mind their vantage point is limited. This way we can convey things that have a certain "rightness" to them, while hopefully not encouraging others to pick up our ideas as verbatim infallibility and circulate them to others.

This spirals down to religion quite well because, people will very readily proclaim things such as .... we are all GOD, but if they do not have direct experience, how is this helpful? it is helpful if it comes from a man who has experienced something profound enough to have the right to say those things, and then, he can take anyone who wants to talk to him and show him at least a glimmer of the truths he has seen.... but if a bystander just says "well yes i like that idea, we are all God, and it makes sense" and then he says "we are all God" things get muddled up......

so it circles back to validity of Source.... initially communication comes from an intent to be completely true, as if 2 cavemen were entirely dependent upon near telepathic communication in order for them to survive, but now we are quite fragmented into clusters and don't quite use our words the right way.... and we are socialized by a jabbering schizophrenic hen of a liar (TV).

Edited by leery11 (02/21/07 03:04 PM)

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6594260 - 02/21/07 03:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
...or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




Please elaborate on this. What exactly is the difference between smoking marijuana to relax, stretching one's body and taking deep breaths to relax, or putting on soothing music to relax? Are all evidence that the person involved in such is weak? :what:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6594310 - 02/21/07 04:05 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
...or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




Please elaborate on this. What exactly is the difference between smoking marijuana to relax, stretching one's body and taking deep breaths to relax, or putting on soothing music to relax? Are all evidence that the person involved in such is weak? :what:




You rely on a something to alter your mind set to relax you, just like religion. You need 'this' to relax, or 'have fun' but its a way of letting away your troubles with something uncontrolable.

Taking deep breathes ect. is natural, music in which one feels as soothing is a way your brain relax's one sort of music may be calming for one and not for another. While substances and religion is a way in which you use them to feel better about ones self, or numb the surroundings.

Im not saying its a negative thing, but it does show that someone is unable to cope with stresses and true realities of the world, so they use something short or long term to feel ignorant.

Granted some substance use is used purely for the 'enjoyment' but when substance use comes an addiction it is generally a form of coping methods.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6594351 - 02/21/07 04:13 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
You rely on a something to alter your mind set to relax you, just like religion. You need 'this' to relax, or 'have fun' but its a way of letting away your troubles with something uncontrolable.




Is it really now? How have you determined the motivations and nature of those who have used drugs before? What does "need" have to do with it? IMO, you are making assumptions with nothing of substance to base them upon.

Quote:


While substances and religion is a way in which you use them to feel better about ones self, or numb the surroundings.




This sentence is not coherent. I'm not sure what you are trying to express. :shrug:

Quote:


Im not saying its a negative thing, but it does show that someone is unable to cope with stresses and true realities of the world, so they use something short or long term to feel ignorant.




No, it does not show that someone is incapable of handling reality effectively. Just about every psychadelic user on this website is going to assert that psychadelics are not used to "feel ignorant". I would suggest not making brazen assertions about subject matter that you know nothing about. 

Quote:


Granted some substance use is used purely for the 'enjoyment' but when substance use comes an addiction it is generally a form of coping methods.




Is English your first language?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineinetiatic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6594411 - 02/21/07 04:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

None of my topic was meant to be about drug use so if you mind not starting a useless tangent, thanks.

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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6594532 - 02/21/07 04:56 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

inetiatic said:
None of my topic was meant to be about drug use so if you mind not starting a useless tangent, thanks.




You specificially associated religion and the use of drugs, asserting that they are exactly similar in a manner that is a central aspect of your main point. I didn't just randomly start talking about it in a manner that relates to the ideas that you presented and associated with the main ideas of your presentation.

Quote:

inetiatic said:
Religion, drugs, anything in which people place their problems on is a form of a 'crutch' in which they cannot take the stress or reality of the real world, so numb their worries by praying to god to be healthy or blame their car accident on 'it was god's fate', or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




That was an excerpt from your main post. Furthermore,

Quote:

inetiatic said:
im discussing how drugs are useless




If none of you topic was meant to be about drug use than you would not have repeatedly demonstrated otherwise and asserted that it directly related to the idea that you were trying to convey. That which I expressed on the matter was not a useless tangent, and it was entirely on-topic. I would suggest being more aware of what you are actually posting. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6594550 - 02/21/07 05:00 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I do not understand what you mean. It is obvious that existence (including my own as 'a' being) partakes of, and participates in Being Itself. The Platonic Good, Christian theologian Paul Tillich's "Ground of Being," the Johannine "Logos," adopted (most likely) from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria and written of in Acts 17:22-31:

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Personified, a language that galls many people (bothers me too), yet the immediacy of the Godhead - Being - is what this Pauline passage attempts to convey, and one that has always reminded me of the Christian symbol of the IXTHIOS, the fish, a symbol of Christ. Christ swims in the 'Infinite Ocean' and KNOWS that He is composed mostly of 'water,' while the unrealized multitudes of fish do not even know that they're wet! As in the 22nd Logion of The Gospel According to Thomas:

"...when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner..."

To me, my participation in Being is completely evident. It is more immediate even than Descarte's "I think therefore I am" because simple being is prior to thinking. I believe the 'will,' or 'intention' is prior to 'intellect.' With no more than will, consciousness directed to itself, one intuits 'being' even before one is capable of thinking - the wake-up call of being born - or being born again!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6595217 - 02/21/07 07:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
...or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




Please elaborate on this. What exactly is the difference between smoking marijuana to relax, stretching one's body and taking deep breaths to relax, or putting on soothing music to relax? Are all evidence that the person involved in such is weak? :what:



I personally think that the need to constantly point to other people's beliefs or habits as a sign of "weakness" is itself a sign of weakness(yes, I realize that I just implicated myself with this statement).


--------------------

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OfflineSacred_Fool
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6595967 - 02/21/07 10:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I have come to my religious, or spiritual, beliefs through obsessive examination and experimentation. I never stop questioning, reading, and experimenting. I was raised atheist, and was force fed things like, "God does not exist." You want to know why I believe in God? Sometimes I can hear God. God(s) give me messages in dreams, visions, and through other people or spirits. Or maybe I'm just rebelling from my atheist upbringing. Of course I can't prove this, and of course I could be completely insane. I've been to a few therapists about this and they conclude that I am sane. Oh well, maybe next time!

I doubt intelligence has much to do with religion, but for whatever it is worth my GPA is 4.0 and I consider myself religious.

Edited by Sacred_Fool (02/21/07 10:40 PM)

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Sacred_Fool]
    #6596261 - 02/22/07 12:31 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sacred_Fool said:
I have come to my religious, or spiritual, beliefs through obsessive examination and experimentation. I never stop questioning, reading, and experimenting. I was raised atheist, and was force fed things like, "God does not exist." You want to know why I believe in God? Sometimes I can hear God. God(s) give me messages in dreams, visions, and through other people or spirits. Or maybe I'm just rebelling from my atheist upbringing. Of course I can't prove this, and of course I could be completely insane. I've been to a few therapists about this and they conclude that I am sane. Oh well, maybe next time!

I doubt intelligence has much to do with religion, but for whatever it is worth my GPA is 4.0 and I consider myself religious.




See, therein lies the problem man. It's all "feeling," "visions," "dreams," etc...

we have two explanations for those...

1) God
2) Delusions/Illusions

We at least have a somewhat physical and rational explanation for the second one... the first is a conjecture - quite the reason-defying, unintelligble one too I might add.

If there is this omnipotent, omnibenevolent, first-cause all perfect being that created everything... incuding ourselves in "his" image, one would think he would've given us the faculty to conclude his existence with some sort of reason or intuition... something that can be explained and understood with consistency.

This isn't the case... and then you could come up with all kinds of plausible reasons as to why mankind may have created this illusory figure... (comfort, purpose, "moral" obedience, opiate of the masses, etc)

Furthermore, throughout recorded history people have attributed the unknown to a higher power... and as human knowledge and understanding progressed through science and discovery, we became more and more enlightened. We now have the Big Bang singularities theory for creation, evidence for expansion, theories for an eventual contraction, and now the possibility of multiple universes... (it isn't even possible for us to conceptualize such a notion as we can't even grasp a fraction of the one in which we exist)

all of this though is backed by some phenomenal mathematics and physics that has yet to come close to being disproved.

Toss evolution into the mix and it becomes very difficult to conclude, or even hypothesize the existence of a god.








Edited by Continuum (02/22/07 12:43 AM)

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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6596289 - 02/22/07 12:55 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately I don't have the time to read all this right now, so I'll just add a quick response.

Seems like there are plenty of people who are both religious and intelligent. They might not be the highest of intellects, but just because someone's religious are they automatically not intelligent? I think a better question might be "How can someone be religious if they are intelligent?", while it might not seem like it I think there are differences in the questions.

Also, there are some things in this world that people are unable to wrap their head around. Some don't feel science has appropriately disproved any sort of higher being through things such as the big bang theory and the such. Is it wrong for people who don't feel that their concept of what is possible and what is natural can't explain the way some things happen/are to go on to believe that there is some sort of higher being? This seems to be intelligent, you can't rationally prove (or disprove) something through the things to know to be real and possible, so there must be something that allows impossibilites to happen. Just throwing it out there.

Finally, while SATs and such don't necessarily accurately reflect knowledge, in general the people who do well on them are intelligent people. Since intelligent people usually succeed more in the school system, and through advance placements and such, they gain more experience that is required to succeed in the highest form on such tests. So while the questions themselves do not reflect intelligence, I feel that they are about as close as we can come to figure out who is and who is not intelligent through a standardized test (I realize this last part is totally off topic, but I wanted to add it in.)


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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: jewunit]
    #6596840 - 02/22/07 09:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

what about the religions that favor education the most?

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: inetiatic]
    #6596955 - 02/22/07 10:32 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i wouldn't say thats a true statement but i do see your logic.

Sometimes people want to believe and sometimes they don't regardless of intelligence. All humans are capable of ignorance.

i don't believe in religions because
1. Theres so many of them - which should you choose lol
2. if God wanted to present his existance then why would it be in the form of another human telling me - or some old text written by another human
3. it appears to be a result of the thinking mind - to answer the biggest questions we have - how and why are we here?

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Silversoul]
    #6597039 - 02/22/07 11:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

inetiatic said:
...or smoking that bowl so you can 'relax and enlighten your self' all are forms of a weak person.




Please elaborate on this. What exactly is the difference between smoking marijuana to relax, stretching one's body and taking deep breaths to relax, or putting on soothing music to relax? Are all evidence that the person involved in such is weak? :what:



I personally think that the need to constantly point to other people's beliefs or habits as a sign of "weakness" is itself a sign of weakness(yes, I realize that I just implicated myself with this statement).




If you have the need to constantly point out others weaknesses, then I would agree this is itself a weakness.

It is acceptable to observe some behavior or action and conclude it proceeded from weakness. There is a difference between belittling others to enhance your own self-image by comparison and inferring weakness because a person is unable to perform some task without a crutch. Its often hard to tell the difference, though.

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OfflineSacred_Fool
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Continuum]
    #6597235 - 02/22/07 12:51 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

See, therein lies the problem man. It's all "feeling," "visions," "dreams," etc...

we have two explanations for those...

1) God
2) Delusions/Illusions

We at least have a somewhat physical and rational explanation for the second one... the first is a conjecture - quite the reason-defying, unintelligble one too I might add.




I can certainly agree with you here, which is why I have pursued psychological evaluation. I'm not through with that process yet, even though I have been told I am sane. Rational explanations can only be achieved by observing religion through a scientific, logical viewpoint. To be able to experience a religion you have to shift paradigms from mundane to spiritual. No wonder we have trouble describing it or measuring it.   

Quote:

If there is this omnipotent, omnibenevolent, first-cause all perfect being that created everything... incuding ourselves in "his" image, one would think he would've given us the faculty to conclude his existence with some sort of reason or intuition... something that can be explained and understood with consistency.




It seems to me that you are defining God in a very Judeo-Christian way. The way I view the Gods is somewhat different. I am not overly concerned with creation. I believe there is a type of intuition we can sense the Gods with, but it is something that can't be explained very well, and certainly lacks consistency.

Quote:

This isn't the case... and then you could come up with all kinds of plausible reasons as to why mankind may have created this illusory figure... (comfort, purpose, "moral" obedience, opiate of the masses, etc)




I can certainly agree with you here too, the only thing I would point out is that ethical systems and religion do not necessarily go hand in hand. Let me just put it this way; some Atheists are more moral than some Christians.

Quote:

Furthermore, throughout recorded history people have attributed the unknown to a higher power... and as human knowledge and understanding progressed through science and discovery, we became more and more enlightened. We now have the Big Bang singularities theory for creation, evidence for expansion, theories for an eventual contraction, and now the possibility of multiple universes... (it isn't even possible for us to conceptualize such a notion as we can't even grasp a fraction of the one in which we exist)




I would really like to see someone elaborate on the similarities between quantum physics and eastern religions. I'm a humanities student, so science is not my strong point, but from the little I can understand I do not think science and religion are so opposing. Especially if you compare quantum theories with eastern philosophy/religion. The difference is that science uses its paradigm to prove things, and a religion uses its paradigm to view things. 

Quote:

all of this though is backed by some phenomenal mathematics and physics that has yet to come close to being disproved.

Toss evolution into the mix and it becomes very difficult to conclude, or even hypothesize the existence of a god.




It may be difficult to hypothesize the existence of a God in a scientific paradigm, but others do not find it so difficult. Even some scientists are religious. I believe Albert Einstein was religious.

Moderator edit: Fixed horrible misuse of quote tags. :grin:

Edited by fireworks_god (02/22/07 03:04 PM)

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OfflineSacred_Fool
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: coopypants]
    #6597247 - 02/22/07 12:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

coopypants said:
what about the religions that favor education the most?




If you notice, it is that type of religion that has the most tolerance.

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Offlinecoopypants
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Sacred_Fool]
    #6598277 - 02/22/07 04:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sacred_Fool said:
Quote:

coopypants said:
what about the religions that favor education the most?




If you notice, it is that type of religion that has the most tolerance.




and the most humanistic.

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OfflineContinuum
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Re: Being religious contradicts being intelligent? [Re: Sacred_Fool]
    #6600078 - 02/22/07 11:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I can certainly agree with you here too, the only thing I would point out is that ethical systems and religion do not necessarily go hand in hand. Let me just put it this way; some Atheists are more moral than some Christians.





ahhh, but we have an underlying presumption here that we actually know what "moral" is... or have some sort of definition. I see nothing wrong with recreational drug use or random sex (all necessary precautions of course) but alot of christians would consider these "immoral."

but I get your point, and agree entirely.

Quote:


I would really like to see someone elaborate on the similarities between quantum physics and eastern religions. I'm a humanities student, so science is not my strong point, but from the little I can understand I do not think science and religion are so opposing. Especially if you compare quantum theories with eastern philosophy/religion. The difference is that science uses its paradigm to prove things, and a religion uses its paradigm to view things.

It may be difficult to hypothesize the existence of a God in a scientific paradigm, but others do not find it so difficult. Even some scientists are religious. I believe Albert Einstein was religious.






"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

-Albert Einstein

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