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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6599212 - 02/22/07 07:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Do you know what "perspective" means?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6599231 - 02/22/07 07:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, and in my opinion your perspective (Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view) is a rationalization.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6599248 - 02/22/07 07:45 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

And just what is my perspective, SirTripAlot?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6599278 - 02/22/07 07:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
There probably were some incidents, but the first wave of women's lib in the U.S. took place quite some time ago. Even of late, if an American woman was murdered for her lack of modesty, it is doubtful the perp's religion would be mentioned as a motivation.

I can also cite many incidents of individuals being murdered by Christian extremists because of the color of their skin.

Was Jesus a racist? Nah, I'd like to think not. Did Prophet Mohammed kill women for not wearing a headscarf? The headscarf didn't even exist in his time.






^^^^^^^^^
There it is.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6599310 - 02/22/07 08:00 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Please explain, in your own words, why you feel that is a "rationalization". I'd like for this return to actual debate and discourse, as this is quickly devolving into one-liners.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6599411 - 02/22/07 08:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You stated,"I can also cite many incidents of individuals being murdered by Christian extremists because of the color of their skin."



It might be the semantics of your post, but the way I took the above statement, is that you were implying that violent actions by Muslims (a woman getting murdered for not wearing a veil), is the same as people of a certain race, on the receiving end of violence by Christians. My assertion is that just because one group has done this before, does not take away from the severity of the incident itself. Hence my view of a rationalization.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6599629 - 02/22/07 09:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Perspective however, which is the reason I mentioned (now permanently isolated) Christian violence, is the process of better understanding an observable phenomena by being inclusive of examples outside what may be tunnel vision. It is known as meta-analysis, and it has particular value to social scientists and historians. Muslim radicals can shout all they want, "The veil today, the veil tomorrow, the veil forever!" - these dying cries for the mores of yesterday do not make the situation intractable, regardless how loud and frenzied they are. They are in fact indicative of inner-clashing between reformists and fundamentalists. My whole point of position here is that Islamic reform is not only possible - but is currently under way, and that is why the fundamentalist bloc is responding so radically for reasons that would be futile before Reformism in the Muslim world even existed.

The atrocities carried out by Muslims lately are the result of a civilization that is at a cultural war with itself; between those who want to assimilate the religion into the modern world, and those who wish to suspend it in a puritanical, 7th century impression. Change has been historically bloody, but it has the wind at its back. That Indian woman may have been permanently silenced by one man, but ten more women will ultimately take her place. The radical traditionalists of old have never won cultural struggles. Never. They will shout, they will murder, they will do everything sinfully possible to stop what they ultimately cannot. They will lose the Struggle for Islam because modernity is a far greater force than anything a stone-age mullah can muster.

If you wish to hasten the reform of Islam, you can start by no longer isolating the reform movement itself.:tongue:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6602103 - 02/23/07 01:23 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No.


It comes down to the group ITSELF, policing ITSELF. It is no longer the 9th century. Just because other socities have failed to evolve into a more humane one, does not give them the "get out of jail free card" simply because they are "catching up" to the rest of us.You dont want negative attention? Then stop Arabic Courts sentencing rape victims to whippings, stop the absurd violence happening everyday. I do not detract from the movement, I shine a spotlight on it. Call it isolating, call it whatever.


As soon as these absurdities stop, there will be no need to discuss them.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6603452 - 02/23/07 06:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/21/16 01:45 PM)

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6603682 - 02/23/07 07:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

No.




'No' what? Or do you simply disagree that reform is possible?

Quote:

It comes down to the group ITSELF, policing ITSELF




La derr, that is exactly what the Islamic reform movement is attempting to do; eliminating and isolating the ideology that motivates such violent behavior.

Quote:

Just because other socities have failed to evolve into a more humane one, does not give them the "get out of jail free card" simply because they are "catching up" to the rest of us.




Where on earth did you get this idea that what extremists do is "OK" simply because Muslims are last place in the race to modernity? :confused: Oh! You mean because when someone explores socio-historical realms to simply better understand the behavior with reform in mind, they MUST be trying to downplay the severity of it. :rolleyes: You are on a witch hunt my friend.

Quote:

You dont want negative attention? Then stop Arabic Courts sentencing rape victims to whippings, stop the absurd violence happening everyday. I do not detract from the movement, I shine a spotlight on it. Call it isolating, call it whatever.




This is what is so astounding - you don't know the slightest thing about Islamic Reform or its year to year development. :lol: You're only keenly tuned into the actions of extremists, which you lament over as a genuine expression of Islam, a notion you and many others haven't academically explored or backed up using Islam itself.

How about last July? While the world was up in partisan arms over the Israeli-Lebanon War, Pakistan budged under the weight of reformism when they removed the tribally-inspired Hadood Laws (the laws that are used to punish women for being raped). Under these laws over 5,000 Pakistani women have been jailed for adultery (when they were actually raped) since the laws were made legislation in Pakistan in 1977. Last July, Pakistan's influential Council of Islamic Theology agreed that the Hadood Laws had no basis in Islam (they were after all tribal injections from Pakistan's chaotic 70's). Pervez Musharraf responded to this ruling by releasing those imprisoned under the law. Nearly 2,000 women have been released from Pakistani prisons since July 2006.

This, if you even read it at the time, likely would not have prompted you to bring attention to it as lamentation over advancements made in Islamic reform does not seem to be your idée fixe, despite the great importance Islamic reform has in the war on terror.

Quote:

As soon as these absurdities stop, there will be no need to discuss them.




The thing is, you discuss them haphazardly and with cretinous zeal as if the world is not informed on the extent of Islamist extremism. You present them as if they are unique, heterogeneous events that have no solutions or parallels found analytically in historicity. You chiefly point it out with the intention of painting Muslims as entirely monolithic in this conduct, which in turn simply isolates reform minded Muslims.

Call it "spreading awareness" all you want, in the consummation of such dialogue, you make the situation that much worse by paying lip service to the notion that extremists are merely expressing the true tenets of Islam.

Reformists are trying to take back the religion while you keep handing it back to the radicals.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: DieCommie]
    #6603774 - 02/23/07 08:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6603885 - 02/23/07 08:41 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Your comical.


Your pretzel thinking "meta- analysis" has you lost in the sauce. First, your assumption that I know nothing of the Muslim reform movement is baseless.

Simply because I post what I feel is bullshit?


I have been in several Islamic countries where progress has been made. In fact, my unit helped rebuild a small rural city, after the ravages of war. Have you been to the Middle East? Ever had a chance to actually espouse what you profess? Oh, I forget, you are apart of the untested crowd. 



Your rationalization is clear as day. Oh! The the 1960s -2000 doesn't count! Oh! The 9th century doesn't count either, because everyone lived by the sword! I find your conduct regarding this issue equally deplorable. Your "hush, hush" approach coupled with your "prespective"  further vindicates and enables current extremists as the scapegoat they desperately need : :poop:



What is even more comical, is YOUR LACK of understanding of Islam, this was just a few months ago. You didn't even know what the pillars of Islam were, a very basic principle......


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6133020#6133020

(Ouch!)


At least I know my thoughts have actually manifested as actions, rather then just keystrokes..............



You can blather on, so go right ahead, This discussion will serve as a major impetus for posting more Muslim absurdities for your sake, especially from now on. God Bless America.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/23/07 10:11 PM)

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6604277 - 02/23/07 10:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Your pretzel thinking "meta- analysis" has you lost in the sauce. First, your assumption that I know nothing of the Muslim reform movement is baseless.




You certainly don't mention it much yourself. So what thinkest thou?

Quote:

I have been in several Islamic countries where progress has been made. In fact, my unit helped rebuild a small rural city, after the ravages of war. Have you been to the Middle East? Ever had a chance to actually espouse what you profess? Oh, I forget, you are apart of the untested crowd.




And you expect anyone to take this claim at face value? This is the internet, my friend :lol:

But lets say you're not bluffing, because you say so - how much could you have absorbed in the 'Middle East', and your experience in a ravaged rural city after a war that you don't even mention? And how does one specifically study Islam in this scenario?

Quote:

Your rationalization is clear as day. Oh! The the 1960s -2000 doesn't count! Oh! The 9th century doesn't count either, because everyone lived by the sword! I find your conduct regarding this issue equally deplorable. Your "hush, hush" approach coupled with your "prespective" further vindicates and enables current extremists as the scapegoat they desperately need




Thanks for the pantomime dramatization. Actually, I was hinting that the current problematic state of the Muslim world is the result of numerous factors, not the religion itself. Your examples of the apparent fruits of Islam, which only went as far back as 1968, when the modern Palestinian-Israeli conflict birted, is in itself an absurdity if you're insinuating that Muslims are a consolidated bunch ever since the inception of Islam. Your myopia of severe geo-political events is what was being corrected.

Quote:

What is even more comical, is YOUR LACK of understanding of Islam, this was just a few months ago. You didn't even know what the pillars of Islam were......


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6133020#6133020

At least I know my thoughts have actually manifested as actions, rather then just keystrokes..............





The key word is "Just". In case you didn't read between the lines, I was being inquisitive.

Quote:

You can blather on, so go right ahead, This discussion will serve as a major impetus for posting more Muslim absurdities for your sake, especially from now on.




I'm touched, really. But since Islamist barbarity is an almost daily occurance, don't you worry your threads might come off a bit as a luddite short of a textile factory?

Quote:

God Bless America.




And Muslims worship that same God :smirk:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6604306 - 02/23/07 11:01 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Any frequent poster here, can verify my status as a disabled vet. This is not any new hat, I threw on to talk to you.

My "fruits" went back to a much more early century.
You falling on the semantics of your post, to somehow rectify your ignorance on the topic, is comical once again.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (02/23/07 11:04 PM)

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6604368 - 02/23/07 11:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Any frequent poster here, can verify my status as a disabled vet. This is not any new hat, I threw on to talk to you.




I already gave you the benefit of the doubt, but if you feel persecuted on the matter, be my guest and rally the maltitude to 'back; your claim. :whatever:

Quote:

My "fruits" went back to a much more early century.




You mean that attempt of yours at Islamic history? :lol:

Quote:

You falling on the semantics of your post, to somehow rectify your ignorance on the topic, is comical once again.




It's more likened to an exhausted effort in explaining facts, which you do not operate within.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6605018 - 02/24/07 08:45 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I dont feel prosecuted on the matter, and further, for you to allege that I even was, is baseless. I simply stated my history here. I have been a frequent poster/observer here for just a little longer then yourself, and have shared some past experiences with people. I was not trying to rally the masses, nor namedrop.What do you want me to do, give you my DD214?



Look, I understand you are mad. People like you, take lots of pride in the knowledge they soak up (I can tell you have allot). When they are proven in error , they get quite defensive. An expression of this is, you reverting back to consecutive one line responses and accusations, precisely the opposite of what you pleaded, just a few posts ago. Any person reading that thread can see you did not know what the pillars of Islam were.



As for my historical references, please post the ones you feel are in error, for all to see. Lets try to get back on topic.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6605469 - 02/24/07 12:22 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
http://www.icapi.org
http://www.yuksel.org
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com
http://www.progressivemuslims.org
http://www.pmuna.org
http://www.progressivemuslims.ca
http://www.rawa.org
http://www.progressiveislam.org
http://www.ijtihad.org
http://www.understanding-islam.com
http://www.muslimwakeup.com
http://www.free-minds.org
http://www.pbm.org.uk/

I also recommend watching CNN's Amanpour investigation, "The War Within" which exclusively explores the struggle between reformists and radicals in Britain:

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=The+War+Within&search=Search




None of those websites accept blame or acknowledge that the fault is Islam, not the west (as far as I could see). Those are website in english. They are intended for english viewers, to convince english viewers that islam is a 'religion of peace'. They are not intended to convince any muslims in conservative countries of this fact.

And those four you tube clips seem to confirm what I already thought... there is a growing Jihadist movement, the reform movement is shrinking and inconsequential.

What do I want to see? Action. Muslims taking up arms against the Jihad. The so called 'moderates' only speak they dont act, and they speak against the west's view while creating excuses for the Jihadists behavior.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: DieCommie]
    #6607654 - 02/25/07 02:37 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

None of those websites accept blame or acknowledge that the fault is Islam, not the west (as far as I could see).




The theory that Islam is the problem is just that, a theory. It has no factual reliance on sociological evidence. It is subscribed by those who for the most part have a partisan disposition on the topic and it is a theory that is neither popular among non-Muslims in the west outside religious or secular conservatives.

You will find, rather, that Muslim reformists adhere to the belief that liberal democracy is supported by the Qur'an, and they wish for liberal democracies to be erected in the Muslim world as an expression of Islam - not at all different than America, also founded under Christian precepts that supported equality and freedom.

It seems the kind of movement you are hopeful for is one to abandon Islam, which is unrealistic.

Quote:

Those are website in english. They are intended for english viewers, to convince english viewers that islam is a 'religion of peace'. They are not intended to convince any muslims in conservative countries of this fact.




The Islamic reform movement is an occurance all over the Muslim world, from Rawa to Iranian feminism. The sites I listed are not designated for non-Muslims. There are plenty of organizations in the West that simply promote knowledge of Islam in dialogue with Judea-Christian society. The Islamic reformist sites specifically target reform within English-speaking Muslim immigrant communities, which have various assimilation issues, especially within Britain (American Muslims are a better example of successful assimilation). Likewise, reform-minded sites aimed at Muslim communities exist in all European languages.

The Muslim world itself is tricky in this area. Reformists in the West have long attempted to import their works to Muslim countries with some success in more liberal regions, however the nature of many governments in the Muslim world and how they deal with religious and political issues have made this venture somewhat limited and reliable on the function of local feminist organizations, for the most part the spearhead of Islamic reform within the Muslim world.

Quote:

And those four you tube clips seem to confirm what I already thought... there is a growing Jihadist movement, the reform movement is shrinking and inconsequential.




The growing jihadist movement among Muslims is fairly evident, with or without Amanpour's documentary. 'The War Within' mostly depicts the current British Muslim community, which was fractured by 7/7 along with much of English society; moderate Muslims in Britain began confronting radicals within their community in in aftermath of the London attacks, which was Amanpour's investigative story. British Muslims today are far more defensive against extremism as 7/7 made it apparent to the Muslim community that Al-Qaeda was literally grooming their youths to become murder-suicide patsies.

Quote:

What do I want to see? Action. Muslims taking up arms against the Jihad. The so called 'moderates' only speak they dont act, and they speak against the west's view while creating excuses for the Jihadists behavior.




There actually is a front line where moderate Muslims pick up guns and go to war with their extremist jihadist countrymen: Iraq. And countless Muslims have died alongside American soldiers fighting radical Islamists. Don't underestimate the sincerity of reform minded Muslims. They are just as willing to die for freedom as anyone has in the past.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6607692 - 02/25/07 03:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I dont feel prosecuted on the matter, and further, for you to allege that I even was, is baseless. I simply stated my history here. I have been a frequent poster/observer here for just a little longer then yourself, and have shared some past experiences with people. I was not trying to rally the masses, nor namedrop.What do you want me to do, give you my DD214?




I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked you a question which you have so far failed to answer. I could care less whether your claim is true or not - to most people anyway, little is taken to heart on the internet. :smile:

Quote:

Look, I understand you are mad. People like you, take lots of pride in the knowledge they soak up (I can tell you have allot). When they are proven in error , they get quite defensive. An expression of this is, you reverting back to consecutive one line responses and accusations, precisely the opposite of what you pleaded, just a few posts ago. Any person reading that thread can see you did not know what the pillars of Islam were.




:lol: Like I said, I was being inquisitive. People tend to inject "jihad" as a pillar of Islam, so I was testing the waters with your knowledge of Islam. The pillars are the basics of Islam. I have studied the life of Mohammad from Mecca to Medina, the Shia-Sunni divide that birthed immediately after his death, read all 114 chapters in the Qur'an (Marmaduke Pickthall's interpretation, although I have glanced at Yusuf Ali's) and much of the Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim ahadith. Not just reading it, but exploring their origins with higher historical criticism. If you want to test me on the matter, be my guest. I did after all challenge you to back up your ‘experience’ in the Mideast as a serviceman, so it's only fair. :smirk:

Quote:

As for my historical references, please post the ones you feel are in error, for all to see. Lets try to get back on topic.




Yes, lets. So I'll begin.

Yes, Muslims conquered Sicily in the mid and later parts of the 9th century. Previously the area was a constant target for conquests for numerous empires, kingdoms and indigenous factions. What you didn't mention was what Muslim rule was like under the Kalbids. Religious tolerance was a feature of Kalbid rule in Palermo and Sicily, and the area also experienced economic boom with the introduction of sugar dates, cotton and citrus fruits by Muslims. It became something of a bustling crossroads and it remained as such until the Norse began invading and attacking the region, until eventually dominated it when they founded a Norman Kingdom from the ashes of their conquest.

Now, onto your contemporary examples, where more information is available on the matter.

One the largest setbacks to the modern Muslim world has been their moral investment in the catastrophic situation of Israel/Palestine. The earliest your cut and paste was able to backtrack to was 1968, a year after the Arab world was (rightfully) brought to their knees in humiliation after being defeated by a single state not much larger than some Arab provinces alone, in only 6 days. This war also spawned the military occupation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, stripping millions of Egyptians and Jordanians of any national identity. One of the first examples mentioned is an attack by the PFLP - not even an Islamic organization, but a Marxist-Leninist Palestinian nationalist group.

With the archaic stage of the Arab-Israeli conflict also came the proxy struggles between communism and capitalism, which saw the rise of secular Arab socialism as a popular remedy to the increasingly impoverished situation of the Muslim world. The 1970's proved to be a hectic period for the Shia-Sunni divide with the rise of Shi'ite extremism in Iran (which was largely a consolidated nationalist response to the abuses suffered under the Western-backed Shah) and civil war in Lebanon that broke out in 1975 between Sunnis, Shi'ites and Christians (yes, Christians). The end of the decade also saw the grasp of influence by secular Baathism in the Muslim world. With the Iranian theocracy came perpetual strife between Islam's two sects as Arabs increasingly felt threatened by Shi'ite Iran. This would escalate into the Iran-Iraq showdown of the 1980's which devastated both countries.

With most Central Asian Muslims already living under Soviet rule, the invasion of Afghanistan by the USSR and the hyper religiousity among Muslims that followed is but another fork in the road leading up to the 2000's. In the wake of communism's overbearing meddling in Muslim countries arose Osama bin Laden. The rest is history. The American invasion of Iraq in 2003 would ultimately prove to split right open the fragile wound between Sunnis and Shi'ites that was hanging by a thread ever since the Iranian Revolution. Iraq has since become a rag-doll.

Many do put forth the notion that Islam is responsible for this, but this is not intellectually honest – while literalist Muslims today will generally believe that all the knowledge they need in life will be found in the Qur'an and Sunnah, this has never been consistent among Muslims until politics became a perpetual feature of religious life in the mid 20th century. Previously the practice social adaptation (A school of thought known as Ijtihad within the Fiqh ul-Sunnah jurisprudence) was a cornerstone of Islamic ingenuity that gave birth to science, the arts and astrology in the Muslim world. And certainly not illiterate religious fanaticism.

Colonialism for the most part devastated once economically bustling and socially diverse Islamic empires, chopping the region up up into mini-states. The founding of Israel would then give off to what now seems like a genetic anti-Semitism that is in contrast with historical Muslim-Jewish relations which normally saw both communities help each other, especially in the face of European persecution. The poverty of the third world in general would also escalate the religio-centric politicization of the Muslim world (as well as the rise of equally unsuccessful secular nationalism).

All this history is what Islamic reform is currently up against. Their biggest obstacles are not 1,400 year old ayats and surahs, but the geo-political disaster of the region. Of what Muslims have become today, it is not exclusively the West's fault nor exclusively theirs. There have been many players and ideologues, proxy exploitation in the wake of communism and secular seccessionist wars that hijacked religious motives. Islam has many faces on many maps. The religio-centrism of Islam and State is not the same in Arabia as it is in Central Asia, for example.

It's simply not a black and white picture at the end of the day.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: No veil, better wear Kevlar [Re: Basilides]
    #6610593 - 02/25/07 09:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

You gave quite the accurate depiction of the history within Silicly. However, lest no forget the plunder they made out of the basilica of St Peter. I actually studied the engagement (on military science platform)during my collage courses. I guess I was kind of wondering if there was any particular reference that I was in error in.


In regards to my enlistment, I will say that it was 90 percent combat related. I did get the experience to go to Oman, Dubai, Quatar, Jordon, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan. I only know about 20 words of Arabic, that make up about 8 phrases. It seems trivial, but I learned more about the culture, disposition, and people with this repetitious communication, albeit primitive.

What really struck me, is how many factions due exist, within these respective countries (some literally down the street form one another)It is my opinion change will come, however, there is a saturation of extremist ideology that filters down even to your nomadic Bedouin herding goats.

Going from place to place, I found it quite puzzling why these countries are so behind the power curve (in every facet), given the natural resource that each one contains. My only answer is the subjectation of the populace with oppressive governments, used in conjunction with religon of Islam (at least a twisted version thereof)

For me, unless a people see the absurdity of their actions, change is MORE slow to come. What is even more puzzling is a sentiment within the people not to look at this objectively. In less one believes in the Bell Curve, all people should be able to make some constructive changes of thought and actions.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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